salvation and the loss of it

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe His sheep follow Him?

Freegrace I've noticed you avoiding the obvious truth of what he has been bringing up.
Jesus said his sheep follow him. Freegrace doctrine says they don't have to in order to be considered his sheep. Jesus is saying something quite contrary to that.

You dodged this truth in the 1 John verses about born again people not sinning/ unsaved people sinning by claiming that John was saying that it was about acting like a child of the devil/ child of God, not your actual status as one or the other. But here you can not manufacture an escape from the obvious point that Jesus himself says his sheep follow him, but you claim that people who don't follow him anymore are his sheep.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe His sheep follow Him?

Generally. Jesus used a parable to show that some who believe only believe for a while. Luke 8:13.

what do you make of that?

What did Jesus say about those who believe in John 3:16?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Is there any connection between John 3:16 and John 10:28, or not?

 

[FreeGrace]

Freegrace I've noticed you avoiding the obvious truth of what he has been bringing up.
Jesus said his sheep follow him. Freegrace doctrine says they don't have to in order to be considered his sheep. Jesus is saying something quite contrary to that.

What did Jesus say about those who believe in John 3:16?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Is there any connection between John 3:16 and John 10:28 or not?

To respond to your charge of my avoiding anything, I've always been consistent by pointing out what Jesus SAID about who are His sheep; John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

We all agree that His sheep are saved people. So it's those who believe in Him who are His sheep, and saved ones at that.

And Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Is it not clear that the sole basis for not perishing is to receive the gift of eternal life???????????????????????

You dodged this truth in the 1 John verses about born again people not sinning/ unsaved people sinning by claiming that John was saying that it was about acting like a child of the devil/ child of God, not your actual status as one or the other.

I don't know what you're referring to.

But here you can not manufacture an escape from the obvious point that Jesus himself says his sheep follow him, but you claim that people who don't follow him anymore are his sheep.

I agreed that His sheep do follow Him generally.

However, was the second soil a fake sheep, or a goat in sheep's clothing? Or a sheep who believed for a while?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What did Jesus say about those who believe in John 3:16?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Is there any connection between John 3:16 and John 10:28 or not?

Once again, the non-Hypergrace OSAS argument is contained right in the passage you are twisting to defend the Hypergrace OSAS argument. It's quite entertaining every time you do that. It's like you can't see it, but I know you can but have chosen to close your eyes to it.

What is it about "whoever BELIEVES in Him", present tense, in John 3:16 NASB that you do not understand, lol?

When Jesus says the person who presently believes is the one who has eternal life you twist it to make it so he 'doesn't really' mean that, but that the one who DOESN'T believe has eternal life and won't perish, too. That's why we're not buying your Hypergrace/ Freegrace doctrine. It directly contradicts what Jesus said. We're going with what Jesus said.

 

[Nathan]

Generally. Jesus used a parable to show that some who believe only believe for a while. Luke 8:13.

what do you make of that?

What did Jesus say about those who believe in John 3:16?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Is there any connection between John 3:16 and John 10:28, or not?

John 3
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

John 10 is most definitely 'connected' with John 3 for the simple reason that Jesus was speaking in both cases. He also is speaking of those who believe in Him, and the result of that being in Him.

Those who are not in Him will not have life. This is a fact that is woven through the whole NT. Whoever believes in Him are in Him, and being in Him brings all the things associated with that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Once again, the non-Hypergrace OSAS argument is contained right in the passage you are twisting to defend the Hypergrace OSAS argument.

At least you've acknowledged that the passage DOES contain the OSAS argument. This is progress.

It's quite entertaining every time you do that.

I'm glad you're interetained.

It's like you can't see it, but I know you can but have chosen to close your eyes to it.

That is my opinion of those who refuse to recognize eternal security throughout the Bible.

What is it about "whoever BELIEVES in Him", present tense, in John 3:16 NASB that you do not understand, lol?

There is NOTHING that I do not understand. And, I fully understand exactly what it means, unlike yourself. It does not mean to keep on believing, as you've been spinning it.

The present tense means an action that is occurring NOW, in the PRESENT, right NOW, CURRENTLY. It has nothing to do with any action in the future.

When Jesus says the person who presently believes is the one who has eternal life you twist it to make it so he 'doesn't really' mean that

You're wrong again, because the one who believes RIGHT NOW has eternal life.

What you've been missing or avoiding or ignoring is what ELSE Jesus said about who presently believe in Jn 5:24:
1. they WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION hint: that is eternal security
2. they HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE. This cannot be un-done, or reversed. Or there would be verses to that effect. And we all know there are no such verses. Or I'd have been fed them repeatedly already.

So, Jn 5:24 teaches that one who believes TODAY (presently) will not come into condemnation (which is future). Do you believe this? Regardless, that's exactly what Jesus said.

but that the one who DOESN'T believe has eternal life and won't perish, too.

Context is always necessary. Please answer the above question: do you believe that one who believes today or presently will not come into condemnation in the future? Which is what Jesus said. Or do you believe one MUST CONTINUE to believe in order to not come into condemnation? Which is it?

That's why we're not buying your Hypergrace/ Freegrace doctrine.

God's grace isn't for sale. Never has been. It's FREE to all.

It directly contradicts what Jesus said. We're going with what Jesus said.

I've just shown the opposite.

How do you deal with John 10:28, where Jesus promised recipients of eternal life will never perish, which is the SAME promise He made in John 5:24.?

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10 is most definitely 'connected' with John 3 for the simple reason that Jesus was speaking in both cases.

Though both passages are related, it's not just because one person was speaking in both passages. That's hardly a reason.

The reason passages are related is because of the SUBJECT MATTER being dealt with in both passages. Nothing else.

Passages are related even when different persons are speaking.

He also is speaking of those who believe in Him, and the result of that being in Him.

That is the reason the passages are related; subject matter. Not because the same person is speaking in both passages.

Those who are not in Him will not have life.

I've ALWAYS believed this. What I reject thoroughly is the notion that one who has been placed in union with Christ (Eph 1:13,14) can be removed from that union. There are no verses that teach this, so there is no reason to assume that is possible. It's impossible.

This is a fact that is woven through the whole NT. Whoever believes in Him are in Him, and being in Him brings all the things associated with that.

And another fact clearly taught through the whole NT is that being in union with Christ is permanent, and cannot be undone, for any reason.

 

[Nathan]

Though both passages are related, it's not just because one person was speaking in both passages. That's hardly a reason.

The reason passages are related is because of the SUBJECT MATTER being dealt with in both passages. Nothing else.

Passages are related even when different persons are speaking.


That is the reason the passages are related; subject matter. Not because the same person is speaking in both passages.


I've ALWAYS believed this. What I reject thoroughly is the notion that one who has been placed in union with Christ (Eph 1:13,14) can be removed from that union. There are no verses that teach this, so there is no reason to assume that is possible. It's impossible.


And another fact clearly taught through the whole NT is that being in union with Christ is permanent, and cannot be undone, for any reason.

I am sorry you reject it, but its true. Sad, but true. People leave Christ for many different reasons, but it all boils down to the fact that they want something above Christ. They forsake Him, He never forsakes us.

Luk 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

You have already said you believe this passage to be true. It is not the seed's fault that it died, it is the soil which was not good - which would not hold the truth - which caused the plant to die.

Rom 11:13-22
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

It is through faith we are in Christ, when we forsake the faith for another - then we forsake all that the root supplies to the branches just like Israel did.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Though both passages are related, it's not just because one person was speaking in both passages. That's hardly a reason.

The reason passages are related is because of the SUBJECT MATTER being dealt with in both passages. Nothing else.

Passages are related even when different persons are speaking.

That is the reason the passages are related; subject matter. Not because the same person is speaking in both passages.

I've ALWAYS believed this. What I reject thoroughly is the notion that one who has been placed in union with Christ (Eph 1:13,14) can be removed from that union. There are no verses that teach this, so there is no reason to assume that is possible. It's impossible.

And another fact clearly taught through the whole NT is that being in union with Christ is permanent, and cannot be undone, for any reason."

I am sorry you reject it, but its true. Sad, but true.

Nope. Sadly untrue.

The last sentence of my quoted post needs to be faced:
"What I reject thoroughly is the notion that one who has been placed in union with Christ (Eph 1:13,14) can be removed from that union. There are no verses that teach this, so there is no reason to assume that is possible. It's impossible."

No one has proven that anyone has been removed from being "sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit" per Eph 1:13.

That's the problem for your views.

People leave Christ for many different reasons, but it all boils down to the fact that they want something above Christ. They forsake Him, He never forsakes us.

And that fact, that He never forsakes, us IS eternal security.

Luk 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

It's NOT my argument that one can forsake Christ. It's obvious that a believer can cease believing, become rebellious, etc.

But what CANNOT be proven is that such behavior, or ANY behavior can result in loss of salvation, or being un-sealed from being IN HIM.

You have already said you believe this passage to be true.

I believe EVERY verse and passage to be true.

It is not the seed's fault that it died, it is the soil which was not good - which would not hold the truth - which caused the plant to die.

And, what's your point here? Other than believers can cease to believe, or only "believe for a while"?

It is through faith we are in Christ

Yes, and that involves being SEALED IN HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's own possession, per Eph 1:13,14.

How is that NOT eternal security? No one has explained that to me. Yet, it is so clear.

when we forsake the faith for another - then we forsake all that the root supplies to the branches just like Israel did.

But, He NEVER forsakes us. Regardless. Eternal security.

 

[Nathan]

I'm sorry, but you have not proven we are sealed in Him so that we cannot leave Him. You have not proven that one of His sheep can continually wonder away. You have not proven that eternal life is based on a work you do.

You say you believe it is through faith we are in Christ - but maybe you do not understand what that means. If you believed it was through faith we are in Christ, then you would know that if we left that faith we are no longer in Christ. If you left the room you are in, are you still in the room?

Jde 1:5-7
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

You have examples of people who forsake God, yet you teach that they are still eternally secure because of something they once did. That's a salvation based on works.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm sorry, but you have not proven we are sealed in Him so that we cannot leave Him.

Right. That's not man's prerogative to prove what God said. I only showed what God said. And when He sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a GUARANTEE of our INHERITANCE for the day of REDEMPTION, as God's possession, what does He promise in that statement?

Here's what we read in Eph 1:13 and 14:
1. "having believed" is simple occurrence of believing. The result is:
2. being marked IN CHRIST with a seal, the Holy Spirit.
3. The Holy Spirit is a deposit, which GUARANTEES our inheritance. There is NO such guarantee if the Holy Spirit is removed for any reason.
4. The guarantee of our inheritance is for the day of redemption. How is that not a clear statement about our salvation??
5. The one having believed is sealed because they are God's possession. He owns us, and GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Arguing against eternal security with these and other verses is futile.

You have not proven that one of His sheep can continually wonder away.

Why would I have to prove that? Of course they can. But, what hasn't been proven is that "falling away" and "wondering (sp)" result in loss of salvation.

Why should one assume such a thing, with so many verses that plainly speak of eternal security and can't be refuted.

You have not proven that eternal life is based on a work you do.

I really wish you'd at least read my posts before making such an embarrassing statement that is blatantly wrong. Anyone who's read my posts knows that eternal life is based on faith in Christ. No works allowed.

You say you believe it is through faith we are in Christ

Then why such a blatantly WRONG statement that insinuates something else?

but maybe you do not understand what that means.

Or, maybe you're just not understanding anything I post.

If you believed it was through faith we are in Christ, then you would know that if we left that faith we are no longer in Christ.

God's Word refutes your opinion. From having believed one is marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession.

Now, what you've not proven is that these words DON'T speak of eternal security. Can you?

If you left the room you are in, are you still in the room?

<sigh>

You accuse me of treating the sealing with the Holy Spirit like a lid on a jar, and now you bring up being in or out of a room? Seriously???

There is no relevance, and I'm sure you well know that.

You have examples of people who forsake God, yet you teach that they are still eternally secure because of something they once did. That's a salvation based on works.

Uh, please read my posts and quit making such embarrassing (to yourself) claims that are blatantly untrue.

What they "did" was believe in Christ. I've said nothing beyond that.

 

[Nathan]

Right. That's not man's prerogative to prove what God said. I only showed what God said. And when He sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a GUARANTEE of our INHERITANCE for the day of REDEMPTION, as God's possession, what does He promise in that statement?

Here's what we read in Eph 1:13 and 14:
1. "having believed" is simple occurrence of believing. The result is:
2. being marked IN CHRIST with a seal, the Holy Spirit.
3. The Holy Spirit is a deposit, which GUARANTEES our inheritance. There is NO such guarantee if the Holy Spirit is removed for any reason.
4. The guarantee of our inheritance is for the day of redemption. How is that not a clear statement about our salvation??
5. The one having believed is sealed because they are God's possession. He owns us, and GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Arguing against eternal security with these and other verses is futile.


Why would I have to prove that? Of course they can. But, what hasn't been proven is that "falling away" and "wondering (sp)" result in loss of salvation.

Why should one assume such a thing, with so many verses that plainly speak of eternal security and can't be refuted.


I really wish you'd at least read my posts before making such an embarrassing statement that is blatantly wrong. Anyone who's read my posts knows that eternal life is based on faith in Christ. No works allowed.


Then why such a blatantly WRONG statement that insinuates something else?


Or, maybe you're just not understanding anything I post.


God's Word refutes your opinion. From having believed one is marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession.

Now, what you've not proven is that these words DON'T speak of eternal security. Can you?


<sigh>

You accuse me of treating the sealing with the Holy Spirit like a lid on a jar, and now you bring up being in or out of a room? Seriously???

There is no relevance, and I'm sure you well know that.


Uh, please read my posts and quit making such embarrassing (to yourself) claims that are blatantly untrue.

What they "did" was believe in Christ. I've said nothing beyond that.

Right, you believe that a persons 'belief' is what saves them. That's not right. Christ saves a person, and we only believe in it. Your 'belief' before Him saving us is a works based salvation.

We are not "sealed in Him" like a pickle inside a jar. If you have proof of this, please show me. We are marked with a seal when we are in Christ - if you are out of Him you do not have the seal.

If you believe that salvation is through faith in Christ, then how do you believe if we leave the faith we still have eternal security?

 

[Kidron]

Right, you believe that a persons 'belief' is what saves them. That's not right. Christ saves a person, and we only believe in it. Your 'belief' before Him saving us is a works based salvation.


A person's "belief" is not what saves them.
A person's "belief" (faith) is what God accepts TO save them.
God does the saving, not your "belief" or your faith



We are not "sealed in Him" like a pickle inside a jar. If you have proof of this, please show me. We are marked with a seal when we are in Christ - if you are out of Him you do not have the seal.

Actually Jesus is God and God is living inside His "temple(s) of the Holy Spirit".
And that is in fact a seal that lasts as long as God continues to exist.
This is why your NT tells you that "Christ IN YOU, the hope of Glory".
It does not say..."if i dont backslide, the hope of glory"
It does not say.."If i hold unto my faith and never let it go, the hope of Glory"...
It does not say.."If i endure to the end, confessing all my sins, the hope of Glory"..
ETC.


If you believe that salvation is through faith in Christ, then how do you believe if we leave the faith we still have eternal security?


God does accept your Faith, to SAVE YOU....and once you are saved, ......
Thats the end of it, as "God who began a good work in you (SAVED YOU), will be faithful to complete it"..
So, if a person denies OSAS, then they are denying that God is faithful to complete the work in you that HE began.

(dont be that person).

Right, you believe that a persons 'belief' is what saves them. That's not right. Christ saves a person, and we only believe in it. Your 'belief' before Him saving us is a works based salvation.


A person's "belief" is not what saves them.
A person's "belief" (faith) is what God accepts TO save them.
God does the saving, not your "belief" or your faith



We are not "sealed in Him" like a pickle inside a jar. If you have proof of this, please show me. We are marked with a seal when we are in Christ - if you are out of Him you do not have the seal.

Actually Jesus is God and God is living inside His "temple(s) of the Holy Spirit".
And that is in fact a seal that is as eternal as God is eternal.
This is why your NT tells you that "Christ IN YOU, the hope of Glory".
It does not say..."if i dont backslide, the hope of glory"
It does not say.."If i hold unto my faith and never let it go, the hope of Glory"...
It does not say.."If i endure to the end, confessing all my sins, the hope of Glory"..
ETC.


If you believe that salvation is through faith in Christ, then how do you believe if we leave the faith we still have eternal security?


God does accept your Faith, to SAVE YOU....and once you are saved, ......
Thats the end of it, as "God who began a good work in you (SAVED YOU), will be faithful to complete it".. Philippians 1:6
So, if a person denies OSAS, then they are denying that God is faithful to complete the work in you that HE began. (Salvation).

(dont be that person).

 

[Nathan]

Right, you believe that a persons 'belief' is what saves them. That's not right. Christ saves a person, and we only believe in it. Your 'belief' before Him saving us is a works based salvation.


A person's "belief" is not what saves them.
A person's "belief" (faith) is what God accepts TO save them.
God does the saving, not your "belief" or your faith



We are not "sealed in Him" like a pickle inside a jar. If you have proof of this, please show me. We are marked with a seal when we are in Christ - if you are out of Him you do not have the seal.

Actually Jesus is God and God is living inside His "temple(s) of the Holy Spirit".
And that is in fact a seal that is as eternal as God is eternal.
This is why your NT tells you that "Christ IN YOU, the hope of Glory".
It does not say..."if i dont backslide, the hope of glory"
It does not say.."If i hold unto my faith and never let it go, the hope of Glory"...
It does not say.."If i endure to the end, confessing all my sins, the hope of Glory"..
ETC.


If you believe that salvation is through faith in Christ, then how do you believe if we leave the faith we still have eternal security?


God does accept your Faith, to SAVE YOU....and once you are saved, ......
Thats the end of it, as "God who began a good work in you (SAVED YOU), will be faithful to complete it".. Philippians 1:6
So, if a person denies OSAS, then they are denying that God is faithful to complete the work in you that HE began. (Salvation).

(dont be that person).

I think you need to redo this post. It makes it seem like I am saying things that I am not actually saying. I am pretty sure that you got an extra quote or something in there.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, you believe that a persons 'belief' is what saves them.

WRONG. Again. I NEVER said that. And those who read my posts KNOW I've never said that.

I've ALWAYS said that we're saved by grace through faith. Which is exactly what Paul wrote in Eph 2:8.

And your claim violates the TOS. Don't tell me what I believe, which isn't even correct, when I've been clear and repetitive about it.

TOS suggests asking "is this what you believe?", or "it seems this is what you believe". But don't tell me what I believe. Esp since you have no clue as to what I believe, obviously.

That's not right. Christ saves a person, and we only believe in it. Your 'belief' before Him saving us is a works based salvation.

I've proven our belief precedes our salvation from Scripture. Where's your proof from Scripture? All you've given is your opinion.

To the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" is Paul's answer: believe (aorist tense - in a point in time) and you will be (future tense to the aorist tense) saved.

That proves your opinion is wrong.

We are not "sealed in Him" like a pickle inside a jar.

Why the needless and silly comparisons? First it was lid on a jar. Now it's pickles in a jar. What's next?

It is apparent to me that I'm just not communicating well and you're not comprehending what I post.

Let me refresh your memory of what Scripture SAYS in Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

Do you comprehend what the red words mean? It speaks of union with Christ, to be "in Him". And we're "marked with a seal". Which is the Holy Spirit.

I haven't said we're "sealed in Him". It is the Holy Spirit that seals us in Him. That's union with Christ.

Now, where is the Scripture that teaches that this union with Christ can be ended?

We are marked with a seal when we are in Christ

This is what I've been saying because this is what Scripture says.

- if you are out of Him you do not have the seal.

That would be EVERYONE who never believed. But since there is disagreement, where is your evidence that one who has believed has EVER been put "out of Him".

That's the core issue. Plus the fact that Jesus promised recipients of His gift of eternal life will never perish. How is that not eternal security? Please answer.

If you believe that salvation is through faith in Christ, then how do you believe if we leave the faith we still have eternal security?

Because of what the Bible teaches. Nothing about being "put out of Him". Guaranteeing recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

And many other verses like that.

I wonder why it hasn't occurred to those who think salvation can be lost by something we do, or quit doing, that John 10:28 is promise at the BEGINNING of one's salvation, WHEN one believes and receives eternal life.

So, at the beginning of one's salvation, they are guaranteed of never perishing. Do you believe that?

 

[Nathan]

WRONG. Again. I NEVER said that. And those who read my posts KNOW I've never said that.

I've ALWAYS said that we're saved by grace through faith. Which is exactly what Paul wrote in Eph 2:8.

And your claim violates the TOS. Don't tell me what I believe, which isn't even correct, when I've been clear and repetitive about it.

TOS suggests asking "is this what you believe?", or "it seems this is what you believe". But don't tell me what I believe. Esp since you have no clue as to what I believe, obviously.


I've proven our belief precedes our salvation from Scripture. Where's your proof from Scripture? All you've given is your opinion.

To the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" is Paul's answer: believe (aorist tense - in a point in time) and you will be (future tense to the aorist tense) saved.

That proves your opinion is wrong.


Why the needless and silly comparisons? First it was lid on a jar. Now it's pickles in a jar. What's next?

It is apparent to me that I'm just not communicating well and you're not comprehending what I post.

Let me refresh your memory of what Scripture SAYS in Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

Do you comprehend what the red words mean? It speaks of union with Christ, to be "in Him". And we're "marked with a seal". Which is the Holy Spirit.

I haven't said we're "sealed in Him". It is the Holy Spirit that seals us in Him. That's union with Christ.

Now, where is the Scripture that teaches that this union with Christ can be ended?


This is what I've been saying because this is what Scripture says.


That would be EVERYONE who never believed. But since there is disagreement, where is your evidence that one who has believed has EVER been put "out of Him".

That's the core issue. Plus the fact that Jesus promised recipients of His gift of eternal life will never perish. How is that not eternal security? Please answer.


Because of what the Bible teaches. Nothing about being "put out of Him". Guaranteeing recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

And many other verses like that.

I wonder why it hasn't occurred to those who think salvation can be lost by something we do, or quit doing, that John 10:28 is promise at the BEGINNING of one's salvation, WHEN one believes and receives eternal life.

So, at the beginning of one's salvation, they are guaranteed of never perishing. Do you believe that?

Well, I guess your statement just 'proves' that I did not violate the TOS.

I've proven our belief precedes our salvation from Scripture. Where's your proof from Scripture? All you've given is your opinion.

To the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" is Paul's answer: believe (aorist tense - in a point in time) and you will be (future tense to the aorist tense) saved.

You plainly say that Paul told the jailer that he 'had' to believe in order to be saved. Do you agree with your statement?

I most definitely believe that we are guaranteed eternal life, to never perish - and this is apart of the faith we receive at the first moment God calls us. If we deny that faith, we deny Christ, eternal life, the Spirit, the mark, the seal, the promises, etc. When we deny the faith, we deny God and all He gives us.

Do you believe we can deny the faith, and still have eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm sorry, but you have not proven we are sealed in Him so that we cannot leave Him.

In fact, you've failed to prove the opposite; that one who as believed can be removed from being "in Him". Of course we can "leave Him", just as the prodigal left his father. But the RELATIONSHIP, which is PERMANENT, continued on intact. It was fellowship that was broken, or died. Failing to understand this will lead to much misunderstanding of Scripture.

Why does your side of the argument have no place for fellowship? The loss of salvation view seems to only recognize being a child of God or being "somehow" unborn and losing the status of child of God. There is no room for the concept of fellowship between child and Father.

You have not proven that one of His sheep can continually wonder away.

Well, I've shown the verses. That's for each person to believe or not.

What you've failed to prove is that one of His sheep can become a goat AGAIN.

You have not proven that eternal life is based on a work you do.

I would never try to prove such a ridiculous thing. We become recipients of eternal life through faith in Christ.

Do you believe a recipient of eternal life can perish?

You say you believe it is through faith we are in Christ - but maybe you do not understand what that means.

No, rather, way more likely it's your repeated misunderstanding of what I've posted and believe.

If you believed it was through faith we are in Christ, then you would know that if we left that faith we are no longer in Christ.

I would only know that if there were verses that says that. So, where are they?

If you left the room you are in, are you still in the room?

This has zero to do with being marked in Him with a seal.

You have examples of people who forsake God

Well, technically, the Bible does. So I believe it.

yet you teach that they are still eternally secure because of something they once did.

Because the Bible says so. Believing is "something they did".

Have you ever been sitting down and trying to figure out something (thinking with your mind) and someone came up to you and asked, "what are you doing?" How did you respond? "Nothing"? Or did you say, "I'm thinking".

Can a recipient of eternal life ever perish?

That's a salvation based on works.

Wrong, again.

In this very post I've asked twice if a recipient of eternal life can ever perish. Please respond.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, I guess your statement just 'proves' that I did not violate the TOS.

Wrong again. You clearly told me what I believe, which was incorrect.

You plainly say that Paul told the jailer that he 'had' to believe in order to be saved.

No, Paul plainly said that. I merely quoted him.

Do you agree with your statement?

I agree with everything that Paul wrote.

I most definitely believe that we are guaranteed eternal life, to never perish - and this is apart of the faith we receive at the first moment God calls us.

Then there should no room in your theology for losing salvation.

If we deny that faith, we deny Christ, eternal life, the Spirit, the mark, the seal, the promises, etc. When we deny the faith, we deny God and all He gives us.

Yet, you've provided zero evidence for any of this.

Do you believe we can deny the faith, and still have eternal life?

The ONLY question is: can a recipient of eternal life ever perish? That's the question that you've not answered.

I've answered all your questions. Repeatedly.

I do hope you'll return the favor.

 

[Nathan]

In fact, you've failed to prove the opposite; that one who as believed can be removed from being "in Him". Of course we can "leave Him", just as the prodigal left his father. But the RELATIONSHIP, which is PERMANENT, continued on intact. It was fellowship that was broken, or died. Failing to understand this will lead to much misunderstanding of Scripture.

Why does your side of the argument have no place for fellowship? The loss of salvation view seems to only recognize being a child of God or being "somehow" unborn and losing the status of child of God. There is no room for the concept of fellowship between child and Father.


Well, I've shown the verses. That's for each person to believe or not.

What you've failed to prove is that one of His sheep can become a goat AGAIN.


I would never try to prove such a ridiculous thing. We become recipients of eternal life through faith in Christ.

Do you believe a recipient of eternal life can perish?


No, rather, way more likely it's your repeated misunderstanding of what I've posted and believe.


I would only know that if there were verses that says that. So, where are they?


This has zero to do with being marked in Him with a seal.


Well, technically, the Bible does. So I believe it.


Because the Bible says so. Believing is "something they did".

Have you ever been sitting down and trying to figure out something (thinking with your mind) and someone came up to you and asked, "what are you doing?" How did you respond? "Nothing"? Or did you say, "I'm thinking".

Can a recipient of eternal life ever perish?


Wrong, again.

In this very post I've asked twice if a recipient of eternal life can ever perish. Please respond.

I do believe in loss of fellowship. Loss of fellowship comes when we sin. It is then, we are disciplined, and we are restored to fellowship.

I believe that a person who is in Christ will never perish. I do not believe eternal life is in a person apart from Him. Eternal life comes to us through faith, so a person with faith will never perish because they have eternal life. Leave the faith, you leave life.

Do you believe that eternal life is something we possess - as in, something physical that we hold onto - like a singular piece of fruit or something?

 

[Nathan]

Wrong again. You clearly told me what I believe, which was incorrect.


No, Paul plainly said that. I merely quoted him.


I agree with everything that Paul wrote.


Then there should no room in your theology for losing salvation.


Yet, you've provided zero evidence for any of this.


The ONLY question is: can a recipient of eternal life ever perish? That's the question that you've not answered.

I've answered all your questions. Repeatedly.

I do hope you'll return the favor.

No, I reiterated exactly what you are saying - that our believing comes before our salvation. Do you believe that or not? You said it, did you mean to say something else?

I already answered your question, but its a valid one so I will answer again.

A person who has eternal life will never perish. A person who leaves eternal life will perish.

Heb 10:37-39
For,
“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

You have not answered this, if you do not want to just say so -
Do you believe we can deny the faith, and still have eternal life?