salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

I do believe in loss of fellowship. Loss of fellowship comes when we sin. It is then, we are disciplined, and we are restored to fellowship.

OK.

I believe that a person who is in Christ will never perish.

OK.

I do not believe eternal life is in a person apart from Him.

I don't understand what this means.

Eternal life comes to us through faith, so a person with faith will never perish because they have eternal life. Leave the faith, you leave life.

That's the hang-up. Where does the Bible teach that leaving the faith means or results in 'leaving life'?

Do you believe that eternal life is something we possess

Of course. Jesus said "I GIVE them eternal life". So, yes, eternal life is what we possess.

- as in, something physical that we hold onto - like a singular piece of fruit or something?

Uh, NO, not "as in.........silliness again".

We don't hold onto to it. Having eternal life is part of the whole process of being a new creature. A creature with ETERNAL LIFE, not just physical life.

Are you following this?

 

[FreeGrace]

I already answered your question, but its a valid one so I will answer again.

A person who has eternal life will never perish.

Biblically correct.

A person who leaves eternal life will perish.

Biblically incorrect. Because Jesus gave NO SUCH CONDITION in His promise to recipients of eternal life. He plainly said recipients will never perish.

If your views were correct, He WOULD HAVE included that condition.

You have not answered this, if you do not want to just say so -
Do you believe we can deny the faith, and still have eternal life?

Yes, because Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. Simple as that.

I must clarify; in your question you asked about "we" denying the faith. I presume the "we" are those who are recipients of eternal life.

You see, I believe that recipients of eternal life will never perish. For any reason. Because Jesus gave NO conditions for losing salvation and perishing.

 

[Nathan]

That's the hang-up. Where does the Bible teach that leaving the faith means or results in 'leaving life'?


Of course. Jesus said "I GIVE them eternal life". So, yes, eternal life is what we possess.

1Jo 5:4-5
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is there someone else who overcomes the world than the one who has faith in Christ? If there is not, then how do you overcome the world without faith in Christ?

Did you know that the serpent also told Eve that she would not die if she ate the fruit? He convinced her that she could retain life in and of herself, apart from God.

 

[Nathan]

Biblically incorrect. Because Jesus gave NO SUCH CONDITION in His promise to recipients of eternal life. He plainly said recipients will never perish.

If your views were correct, He WOULD HAVE included that condition.

He actually did include that condition.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

1Jo 5:4-5
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is there someone else who overcomes the world than the one who has faith in Christ? If there is not, then how do you overcome the world without faith in Christ?

Nope. No one else. I can't overcome the world without faith in Christ. But what does this have to do with losing salvation. I see no relevance or connection.

Did you know that the serpent also told Eve that she would not die if she ate the fruit? He convinced her that she could retain life in and of herself, apart from God.

He spoke his native tongue and lied to her.

 

[FreeGrace]

He actually did include that condition.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

This does NOT help you. Is this suggesting that somehow what John wrote trumps what Jesus SAID in Jn 10:28?????

John was distinguishing between believers and never believers. Not apostates. And no other verse does either.

Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is very clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish. We either believe it or we don't. We have only 2 choices.

 

[Nathan]

Do you believe we can deny the faith, and still have eternal life?

Yes, because Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. Simple as that.

1Ti 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Does an unbeliever have eternal life? So how can we deny the faith, and still have eternal life?

 

[Nathan]

This does NOT help you. Is this suggesting that somehow what John wrote trumps what Jesus SAID in Jn 10:28?????

John was distinguishing between believers and never believers. Not apostates. And no other verse does either.

Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is very clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish. We either believe it or we don't. We have only 2 choices.

John was distinguishing between those who have the Son, and those who do not. You cannot 'add' words to the passage to fit your doctrine and expect me to take you seriously.

Jesus promise in John 10:28 is very clear, it is His sheep who have eternal life. Again, you add words into a passage that are not there. His sheep hear His voice, and His sheep follow Him. They are in the Fathers hand - therefore, they have eternal life.

This is exactly what John is saying.

 

[Mike]

Here is a reminder that members shouldn't play Mod and call out ToS violations. Please report posts that are seen as such and leave it to us.

Thank you.

 

[reba]

Someone here in another thread told me about an hour ago if a christian becomes a muslin the guy is still saved...

 

[Nathan]

Someone here in another thread told me about an hour ago if a christian becomes a muslin the guy is still saved...

Just when you think you have heard it all.

My heart got very heavy over the weekend when I was listening to how hard it is over in the middle east. They spoke of 'young' people who deny the faith and turn to the muslim faith.

I sometimes wonder if we honestly understand just what tribulation is all about.

 

[reba]

We Americans dont... we have it too easy... sheesh we call the cops if MC Donald's is out of chicken tenders

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

If our salvation depends on being "born from above", born again, and it is by God's power that that happens. We, as humans, don't have the power to "born again" ourselves, but some say we do have the power to "unborn again" ourselves, which power God doesn't have, then the believer has power that God doesn't have. God has the power to save and the power to cast us into the lake of fire, but he doesn't have omnipotence. His power is limited in man's power, if man can lose his salvation

1 Peter 1:3 -7 We have are "begotten again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". That living hope is gone if we can lose our salvation
We are no longer kept by the power of God.
Our inheritance has become corruptible and fades away, even thought it was reserved in heaven for us.
Salvation from the presence of sin will not be revealed.
We have no reason to rejoice and we succumb to manifold temptations.
There is no more trials of our faith.
We don't have Joy unspeakable and there is no glory.

It is by God's decree that the soul that sinneth shall die, man has not power over this. God also has decreed that the blood maketth atonement for the soul. God has also decreed, "the life of all flesh is the blood", so, when Christ entered into the holiest in heaven and applied his blood to that altar, Jesus, the man, died eternally because he was the sacrifice on that altar. The Christ that we see in Luke was a body of flesh and bone, but not a body of flesh and blood. To me, it stands to reason, the blood of Christ is powerless if we can lose our salvation.

If a person can lose their Spiritual life, then the Spirit of God must depart and the spirit of man become, once again subject to the soul, rather than to the Spirit of God. The seal that was given to them at the time of salvation is removed and all the truths that the Spirit has revealed become a mystery again.

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer here

If our salvation depends on being "born from above", born again, and it is by God's power that that happens. We, as humans, don't have the power to "born again" ourselves, but some say we do have the power to "unborn again" ourselves, which power God doesn't have, then the believer has power that God doesn't have. God has the power to save and the power to cast us into the lake of fire, but he doesn't have omnipotence. His power is limited in man's power, if man can lose his salvation

1 Peter 1:3 -7 We have are "begotten again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". That living hope is gone if we can lose our salvation
We are no longer kept by the power of God.
Our inheritance has become corruptible and fades away, even thought it was reserved in heaven for us.
Salvation from the presence of sin will not be revealed.
We have no reason to rejoice and we succumb to manifold temptations.
There is no more trials of our faith.
We don't have Joy unspeakable and there is no glory.

It is by God's decree that the soul that sinneth shall die, man has not power over this. God also has decreed that the blood maketth atonement for the soul. God has also decreed, "the life of all flesh is the blood", so, when Christ entered into the holiest in heaven and applied his blood to that altar, Jesus, the man, died eternally because he was the sacrifice on that altar. The Christ that we see in Luke was a body of flesh and bone, but not a body of flesh and blood. To me, it stands to reason, the blood of Christ is powerless if we can lose our salvation.

If a person can lose their Spiritual life, then the Spirit of God must depart and the spirit of man become, once again subject to the soul, rather than to the Spirit of God. The seal that was given to them at the time of salvation is removed and all the truths that the Spirit has revealed become a mystery again.

You give the argument for continuing in the faith with your quote of Peter, while making the argument against it.

If someone turns away from that hope, what hope of salvation do they have?

If someone turns from the faith, how do they receive the things of the faith?

Jude
3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

Do you believe it is impossible to turn from the faith once you have received it?

 

[FreeGrace]

1Ti 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Does an unbeliever have eternal life?

One who has never believed has been given eternal life. Jesus promises to give eternal life only to thos who believes in Him.

So how can we deny the faith, and still have eternal life?

If by "we" is meant a believer who denies the faith, then the answer is still yes, because Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

It seems to me, by your repeated questions, that His promise hasn't really sunk in. I hope it does.

 

[FreeGrace]

John was distinguishing between those who have the Son, and those who do not. You cannot 'add' words to the passage to fit your doctrine and expect me to take you seriously.

Please get serious yourself and quit making false claims about my adding anything to any verses.

Jesus promise in John 10:28 is very clear, it is His sheep who have eternal life.

Are you aware of HOW one has eternal life?

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life

What is taught in these verses is that eternal life is received on the basis of faith in Christ. Or do you disagree?

Therefore, Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is significant. Recipients will never perish.

Jesus said NOTHING about any conditions AFTER receiving eternal life.

Yet, there are many who DO add conditions beyond simply receiving eternal life in order to never perish.

In fact, they believe that some recipients of eternal life WILL PERISH, based on certain conditions.

Again, you add words into a passage that are not there. His sheep hear His voice, and His sheep follow Him. They are in the Fathers hand - therefore, they have eternal life.

This discussion isn't about HOW one becomes a recipient of eternal life, though I've just shown from Scripture HOW one does.

The singular issue is that recipients will never perish, which is opposed to the view that a recipient of eternal life can perish

Hm..

 

[FreeGrace]

Someone here in another thread told me about an hour ago if a christian becomes a muslin the guy is still saved...

If one is a Christian, they have received the gift of eternal life. See Jn 3:15,16, 5:24, 10:28, 1 Tim 1:16.

Jesus promised recipients of eternal life will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

If our salvation depends on being "born from above", born again, and it is by God's power that that happens. We, as humans, don't have the power to "born again" ourselves, but some say we do have the power to "unborn again" ourselves, which power God doesn't have, then the believer has power that God doesn't have. God has the power to save and the power to cast us into the lake of fire, but he doesn't have omnipotence. His power is limited in man's power, if man can lose his salvation

Amen!

 

[reba]

Guess some folks need that style of assurance

 

[reba]

Just when you think you have heard it all.

My heart got very heavy over the weekend when I was listening to how hard it is over in the middle east. They spoke of 'young' people who deny the faith and turn to the muslim faith.

I sometimes wonder if we honestly understand just what tribulation is all about.

according to some here not a problem they are saved..To God be the glory .. Who is their god