salvation and the loss of it

[Nathan]

Please get serious yourself and quit making false claims about my adding anything to any verses.


Are you aware of HOW one has eternal life?

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life

What is taught in these verses is that eternal life is received on the basis of faith in Christ. Or do you disagree?

Therefore, Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is significant. Recipients will never perish.

Jesus said NOTHING about any conditions AFTER receiving eternal life.

Yet, there are many who DO add conditions beyond simply receiving eternal life in order to never perish.

In fact, they believe that some recipients of eternal life WILL PERISH, based on certain conditions.


This discussion isn't about HOW one becomes a recipient of eternal life, though I've just shown from Scripture HOW one does.

The singular issue is that recipients will never perish, which is opposed to the view that a recipient of eternal life can perish

Hm..

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Seems pretty clear to me. Those who have the Son have life, those who don't have no life - regardless if they did something to receive it.

 

[Nathan]

according to some here not a problem they are saved..To God be the glory .. Who is their god

Acts 14
21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Sadly the modern day 'faith' is not that of endurance, but that of 'once did'. Paul knew what was coming on the world and what it meant to hold the faith with a good conscience. You would think that if he believed a person could never sway from the faith and not receive the reward, then he would have said so.

 

[reba]

IF ones god is allah you dont have the Son ..
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Are you aware of HOW one has eternal life?"

1 John 5:1-12

I gave verse that answered my question.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Yes, they are very clear.

Those who have the Son have life, those who don't have no life - regardless if they did something to receive it.

Do you believe that recipients of eternal life could perish? Yes or no.

My question is about people who possess eternal life. Can they perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

IF ones god is allah you dont have the Son ..

But, if that one had believed in the Son at any point, the Son has him. Jn 10:28,29

 

[reba]

yup some folks believe if you believe in allah as your god . you can be saved.. wow ..

 

[Nathan]

I asked this:
"Are you aware of HOW one has eternal life?"

I gave verse that answered my question.


Yes, they are very clear.


Do you believe that recipients of eternal life could perish? Yes or no.

My question is about people who possess eternal life. Can they perish?

No one is immortal but God.

Those who are in Christ, who 'have' the Son, have eternal life - those will never perish.

You seem to word your question as if eternal life is something separate than Christ. Is that what you believe? Do you believe that eternal life and Christ can be separate?

 

[Nathan]

But, if that one had believed in the Son at any point, the Son has him. Jn 10:28,29

Wait - I might be hearing this wrong.

Do you think that if a person who had once believed in Christ, then turns to Islam, will still be given eternal life in Christ?

 

[ezra]

Wait - I might be hearing this wrong.

Do you think that if a person who had once believed in Christ, then turns to Islam, will still be given eternal life in Christ?

i doubt they was ever saved they are a apostate

 

[Nathan]

i doubt they was ever saved they are a apostate

Well, it's a hypothetical question to better understand FreeGraces theology.

On the other hand, by definition, an apostate is one who did believe and who turns from that belief. People who never come to Christ are never referred to as apostates.

 

[FreeGrace]

No one is immortal but God.

Agree!

Those who are in Christ, who 'have' the Son, have eternal life - those will never perish.

And, Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

Do you believe that all recipients of eternal life will never perish?

You seem to word your question as if eternal life is something separate than Christ. Is that what you believe?

No. Never.

Do you believe that eternal life and Christ can be separate?

Again, no. Never.

Do you believe that all recipients of eternal life will never perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But, if that one had believed in the Son at any point, the Son has him. Jn 10:28,29"

Wait - I might be hearing this wrong.

Do you think that if a person who had once believed in Christ, then turns to Islam, will still be given eternal life in Christ?

Your question really begs another question: WHEN does one actually receive eternal life? \

We know that Jesus said that He gives eternal life. So we know WHO gives us eternal life.

So, WHEN does Jesus give eternal life. He answered that question in John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

The word 'believes' is present tense. It has NOTHING to do with future action. It has everything to do with current action, or "right now", or even "today". So, those who believe today HAVE eternal life. That means when they FIRST believed is when they FIRST received eternal life.

In addition to having eternal life, Jesus also said recipients "will NOT be condemned". Further, recipients "HAVE crossed over from death to life". It's impossible for eternal life to pass back over to spiritual death.

So, your question is flawed. For those "who had once believed in Christ", already HAVE eternal life, according to Jesus in Jn 5:24.

Further, He promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Corrected question answered.

 

[Nathan]

Agree!


And, Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

Do you believe that all recipients of eternal life will never perish?


No. Never.


Again, no. Never.

Do you believe that all recipients of eternal life will never perish?

I believe all in Christ, who is eternal life, will never perish.

Do you believe that if someone leaves Christ they will still have eternal life?

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"But, if that one had believed in the Son at any point, the Son has him. Jn 10:28,29"

Your question really begs another question: WHEN does one actually receive eternal life? \

We know that Jesus said that He gives eternal life. So we know WHO gives us eternal life.

So, WHEN does Jesus give eternal life. He answered that question in John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

The word 'believes' is present tense. It has NOTHING to do with future action. It has everything to do with current action, or "right now", or even "today". So, those who believe today HAVE eternal life. That means when they FIRST believed is when they FIRST received eternal life.

In addition to having eternal life, Jesus also said recipients "will NOT be condemned". Further, recipients "HAVE crossed over from death to life". It's impossible for eternal life to pass back over to spiritual death.

So, your question is flawed. For those "who had once believed in Christ", already HAVE eternal life, according to Jesus in Jn 5:24.

Further, He promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Corrected question answered.

Do you believe someone has eternal life apart from faith in Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe all in Christ, who is eternal life, will never perish.
Please answer this question:
Do you believe that some recipients of eternal life may perish?

If so, on what basis?

Do you believe that if someone leaves Christ they will still have eternal life?

Why do you continue to ask this question? I've answered it every time.

We've already had the discussion about being marked with a seal, and you've proven nothing about your opinion that a sealed person can lose the Holy Spirit, lose the status of being "in Him", etc.

There is no support for your opinions and claims.

Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. It seems to me that you have a different view.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe someone has eternal life apart from faith in Christ?

I'm seeing a broken record here.

No.

Do you believe that some recipients of eternal life can perish?

 

[Nathan]

I'm seeing a broken record here.

No.

Do you believe that some recipients of eternal life can perish?

If they walk away from Christ they will. Do you think if they walk away from Christ they still have eternal life?

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Do you believe that some recipients of eternal life can perish?"

If they walk away from Christ they will.

OK. So, just to be clear, then, it appears that you don't believe the promise that Jesus made about recipients of eternal life never perishing.

Thank you for your honesty.

Do you think if they walk away from Christ they still have eternal life?

ONLY because of what Jesus promised recipients of eternal life: they will NEVER PERISH.

I am stunned that a believer would be so blunt in not believing a promise of Jesus.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

This verse in no way supports your view that one can "lose" the Son. But that's your freedom. And no other verse says that either.

So, your disbelief of Jesus' promise is based on the faulty unsupported view that one can "lose" the Son.

Your "go-to" verse that is thought (incorrectly) to change what Jesus promised does NOT do that. In fact, John was distinguishing between saved and unsaved people; those who have believed and therefore HAVE both eternal life AND the Son, and those who NEVER believed and therefore do NOT HAVE either eternal life or the Son.

The belief that a believer can somehow (totally undefined or even described in Scripture) "lose" the Son, or become UN-marked, or UN-sealed is totally false.

There is no support for that idea in Scripture. None has been shown.

Jesus promise those He gives eternal life (recipients) will never perish.

That's a very simple and clear promise. Recipients of eternal life will never perish. Which is different than your beliefs.

 

[Nathan]

I asked this:
"Do you believe that some recipients of eternal life can perish?"

OK. So, just to be clear, then, it appears that you don't believe the promise that Jesus made about recipients of eternal life never perishing.

Thank you for your honesty.


ONLY because of what Jesus promised recipients of eternal life: they will NEVER PERISH.

I am stunned that a believer would be so blunt in not believing a promise of Jesus.


This verse in no way supports your view that one can "lose" the Son. But that's your freedom. And no other verse says that either.

So, your disbelief of Jesus' promise is based on the faulty unsupported view that one can "lose" the Son.

Your "go-to" verse that is thought (incorrectly) to change what Jesus promised does NOT do that. In fact, John was distinguishing between saved and unsaved people; those who have believed and therefore HAVE both eternal life AND the Son, and those who NEVER believed and therefore do NOT HAVE either eternal life or the Son.

The belief that a believer can somehow (totally undefined or even described in Scripture) "lose" the Son, or become UN-marked, or UN-sealed is totally false.

There is no support for that idea in Scripture. None has been shown.

Jesus promise those He gives eternal life (recipients) will never perish.

That's a very simple and clear promise. Recipients of eternal life will never perish. Which is different than your beliefs.

Jesus said His sheep, who hear Him, and who follow Him, will never perish. Not "recipients of eternal life will never perish".

If you believe that people walk away from Christ, then you have to believe that they walk away from life - unless you think a person becomes immortal.

You can slander me all you want. I am simply showing you the truth.

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1Jo 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said His sheep, who hear Him, and who follow Him, will never perish. Not "recipients of eternal life will never perish".

What was He referring to by the words "I GIVE them eternal life", if their not being recipients of eternal life?

When someone GIVES something to someone else, the someone else IS a recipient, regardless of your seemingly denial of that fact.

A recipient is someone who has RECEIVED something. Or, they have been GIVEN something.

If you believe that people walk away from Christ, then you have to believe that they walk away from life - unless you think a person becomes immortal.

I believe exactly what Jesus promised: those He gives eternal life will never perish. And He never added any conditions to the recipients of eternal life.

You can slander me all you want. I am simply showing you the truth.

No, what you've shown is a different belief than what Jesus promised.


What Jesus promised is that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Which is different (and wrong) from the view that some who He gives eternal life will perish.