salvation and the loss of it

[gr8grace3]

Actually, Jesus said this -

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We know exactly who gets eternal life - His sheep.
We know exactly who never perishes - His sheep.
We know exactly where His sheep are - His hand.

If you do not fit into those categories you cannot say you are a 'recipient' of eternal life.

Yes. But He also has lambs and stray lambs/sheep. Those youngsters(lambs) and stray sheep/lambs haven't figured out or have forgotten that they will never perish.

His Lambs or stray sheep.....might try to convince us that we might perish.

His sheep that are following Him and know His voice try to convince the lambs and stray's that they will NEVER perish.

 

[ezra]

soon as everyone gets the plan of salvation figured out please post the the real interruption 2

 

[Nathan]

Yes He did. But could you at least include the specific text that is being referenced? Thanks.


I strongly agree with this.


Nor have I ever suggested that.


One MUST understand the specific context for this verse. It's ONLY about the Tribulation, not applicable to anyone else.


I teach that one knows he/she is in Christ because the Bible says they have been marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14 This is eternal security.

I would never based a docrtrinal fact on emotions.


The only focus is on WHOM they are trusting for their salvation.

I did post specific text. It is about tribulation. Do you believe that people do not have tribulation right now?

The focus should be on WHOM they are trusting - yet its sad to say so many people focus on what they have done at a moment in time.

 

[Nathan]

Yes. But He also has lambs and stray lambs/sheep. Those youngsters(lambs) and stray sheep/lambs haven't figured out or have forgotten that they will never perish.

His Lambs or stray sheep.....might try to convince us that we might perish.

His sheep that are following Him and know His voice try to convince the lambs and stray's that they will NEVER perish.

So what happens when a lamb wonders away and does die? Was it because they were not a sheep to begin with? Or did they not 'actually' die, they just look dead?

1Pe 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Psa 95:7-11
For he is our God,
and we are the people of his pasture,
and the sheep of his hand.
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
as on the day at Massah in the wilderness,
when your fathers put me to the test
and put me to the proof, though they had seen my work.
For forty years I loathed that generation
and said, “They are a people who go astray in their heart,
and they have not known my ways.”
Therefore I swore in my wrath,
“They shall not enter my rest.”

A hired hand does not care about the flock, to keep the flock close by for the Shepherd. A hired hand is more interested in their own desires, and perpetuates that to the flock pretending to be someone who can keep the sheep from harm - even saying the sheep can do anything they want and never perish. However, when the wolves come by looking for a meal, the hired hand runs off......

Jhn 10:12
He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Act 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

A hired hand will not care about how far away from the fold a sheep wonders.

 

[Nathan]

soon as everyone gets the plan of salvation figured out please post the the real interruption 2

Man sinned, man died, Christ came, Christ died, man is made alive in Christ.

:yes

 

[FreeGrace]

I did post specific text. It is about tribulation. Do you believe that people do not have tribulation right now?

The context being referred to is about the Great Tribulation, not problems people experience now.

The focus should be on WHOM they are trusting - yet its sad to say so many people focus on what they have done at a moment in time.

This is a vague comment, so doesn't relate to the discussion. In Biblical Christianity, the focus is ALWAYS on Jesus Christ, who promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. Jn 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, 11:25-27.

The "gospel" literally means "good news". I think it is GREAT NEWS that those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

So what happens when a lamb wonders away and does die? Was it because they were not a sheep to begin with? Or did they not 'actually' die, they just look dead?

Is there any text in the Bible that has a saved person who has been given eternal life who went to hell??

 

[Nathan]

The context being referred to is about the Great Tribulation, not problems people experience now.


This is a vague comment, so doesn't relate to the discussion. In Biblical Christianity, the focus is ALWAYS on Jesus Christ, who promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. Jn 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, 11:25-27.

The "gospel" literally means "good news". I think it is GREAT NEWS that those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish.

Christianity is focused on Christ, not on what He gives. We are not called Eternalians, we are called Christians. Sadly, it has turned into a focus across the world on having eternal life - not a focus on having Christ who IS the life.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Christ is great news - in Him we will never perish.

1Co 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Can someone turn away from the Gospel and still be saved - have eternal life?

 

[Nathan]

Is there any text in the Bible that has a saved person who has been given eternal life who went to hell??

Yep - parable of the sower. The ones on rocky ground believed, and the life of the word of God was in them. Yet they fell away, and that life died.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christianity is focused on Christ, not on what He gives.

Should we dismiss what He gives? What did He say He gives in John 10:28?

We are not called Eternalians, we are called Christians. Sadly, it has turned into a focus across the world on having eternal life - not a focus on having Christ who IS the life.

Since the Bible speaks clearly about eternal life, there is nothing wrong with mentioning it. Jesus sure mentioned it.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus was very interested in eternal life and how one receives it. We should be too.

Christ is great news - in Him we will never perish.

Which is eternal security. Because union with Christ is permanent. Eph 1:13,14

Can someone turn away from the Gospel and still be saved - have eternal life?

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So, the answer is yes, according to Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yep - parable of the sower. The ones on rocky ground believed, and the life of the word of God was in them. Yet they fell away, and that life died.

No, the plants didn't fall away. The believers, represented by plants in the parable, fell away from believing. Luke 8:13.

But Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So, what are you suggesting? Who's right?

 

[GodsGrace]

The aorist tense refers to kind/type of action when the Greek mood is subjunctive, imperitive, and infinitive; and does not primarily (if at all) reference time.

The aorist tense refers to the punctiliar time of the action when the Greek mood is indicative, imperfect, or perfect.

Meaning and interpretation of a verb or participle (a verbal substantive) having the aorist tense can be influenced by other things, such as the presence of a main verb or a qualifying phrase or case of the nominative doing or recieving the action, among a multiple of other factors. The aorist tense, when unmodified or without a contextual qualification, refers to either a kind (its primary use) of action or the punctiliar time (its secondary use) of the action.

~

Some Greek interlinear Bibles identify the tense, voice, and mood of verbs; but consulting that type of tool does not guarantee a correct understanding or interpretation.

Oh be still my beating heart!

Someone who REALLY understands the aorist tense!
You must know Greek.
I sure hope FreeGrace is reading this.

So many posters THINK they're experts!

 

[Nathan]

Should we dismiss what He gives? What did He say He gives in John 10:28?


Since the Bible speaks clearly about eternal life, there is nothing wrong with mentioning it. Jesus sure mentioned it.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus was very interested in eternal life and how one receives it. We should be too.


Which is eternal security. Because union with Christ is permanent. Eph 1:13,14


Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So, the answer is yes, according to Jesus.

We should always tell of the eternal life that is Christ in us.

Interesting, you say someone can turn away from the Gospel and still be saved, but Paul says we are being saved in the Gospel.

Was Paul wrong, or was he correct that in the Gospel we stand and are being saved if we hold fast?

1Co 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

 

[Nathan]

No, the plants didn't fall away. The believers, represented by plants in the parable, fell away from believing. Luke 8:13.

But Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So, what are you suggesting? Who's right?

I didn't say the plants fell away. Might want to look at the post a bit longer before responding.

Jesus promises those in Him will never perish, never seen a promise of that nature for those who leave.

The ones who fell away left the faith. The word of God died in them. The life that was in them no longer was there.

They did not stay in the faith, so they no longer had life. I suppose that makes Jesus right when He said He gives His sheep who hear Him, and follow Him, eternal life.

 

[ezra]

Man sinned, man died, Christ came, Christ died, man is made alive in Christ.

:yes

agreed but the debate is about can you or can you not lose your salvation

 

[Nathan]

agreed but the debate is about can you or can you not lose your salvation

I though you just wanted the plan.

 

[Mike]

Should we dismiss what He gives? What did He say He gives in John 10:28?

The 10th grade Algebra teacher says:
"In my class, I have students who apply themselves, who listen to my lectures, who without exception do their homework and study well through to the end.
I advance them on to the next level, 11th grade Calculus."

Who moves on to Calculus? Is it all of his students, or just the ones described in the first statement? Do you separate the second statement from the first so that everyone moves on to Calculus?

It's clear to me that it is only the ones who devote themselves to will advance. I would be doing the class a great disservice if I told them in the beginning of the year, "It doesn't really matter. You heard what he said. He'll pass all of you onto Calculus. You don't need to devote yourselves to his instruction.".

That would be an awful thing to do to his young students. In v28, the 'them' are the ones described in v27.

 

[FreeGrace]

We should always tell of the eternal life that is Christ in us.

Yes.

Interesting, you say someone can turn away from the Gospel and still be saved, but Paul says we are being saved in the Gospel.

Paul also taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, eternal life being one of them. Does that not count at all?

Plus, Jesus' promise in John 5:24 and 10:28 are UNCONDITIONAL. Does that not count either?

Was Paul wrong, or was he correct that in the Gospel we stand and are being saved if we hold fast?

Of course he was corrrect. But your misunderstanding is the incorrect view.

1Co 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

To "hold fast" means to possess. Not using one's fingers to grasp an object.

And "believed in vain" is a reference to believing anything OTHER THAN the fact that Christ is the Son of God, who died for our sins and GUARANTEES eternal life (eternal security) for those who believe in Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh be still my beating heart!

Someone who REALLY understands the aorist tense!
You must know Greek.

Or, maybe he reads Greek grammar texts, as I do.

I sure hope FreeGrace is reading this.

So many posters THINK they're experts!

Is snarkiness necessary? I've always acknowledged my reliance on the scholarly work of others.

 

[FreeGrace]

I didn't say the plants fell away. Might want to look at the post a bit longer before responding.

Jesus promises those in Him will never perish, never seen a promise of that nature for those who leave.

Why assume one can "leave" from being "in Him", when Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 guarantee our being in Him for the day of redemption?

The ones who fell away left the faith.

Yes, they quit believing.

The word of God died in them.

How does the Word of God die? That doesn't make sense.

The life that was in them no longer was there.

Jesus unconditionally promised in John 5:24 that those who believe:
1. HAVE (possess) eternal life. A life, btw, that CANNOT DIE, OR PERISH.
2. WILL NOT come into judgment. Meaning, will never perish in the lake of fire.
3. HAS PASSED from death to life.

So your claim is in direct opposition to what Jesus said in that verse.

They did not stay in the faith, so they no longer had life.

Without any Scripture to support this claim, it is just an opinion.

I suppose that makes Jesus right when He said He gives His sheep who hear Him, and follow Him, eternal life.

No need to "suppose" anything. Jesus stated unconditionally that those he gives eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security.

No conditions to the recipients of eternal life.