salvation and the loss of it

[Nathan]

What was He referring to by the words "I GIVE them eternal life", if their not being recipients of eternal life?

When someone GIVES something to someone else, the someone else IS a recipient, regardless of your seemingly denial of that fact.

A recipient is someone who has RECEIVED something. Or, they have been GIVEN something.


I believe exactly what Jesus promised: those He gives eternal life will never perish. And He never added any conditions to the recipients of eternal life.


No, what you've shown is a different belief than what Jesus promised.


What Jesus promised is that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Which is different (and wrong) from the view that some who He gives eternal life will perish.

Actually, Jesus said this -

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We know exactly who gets eternal life - His sheep.
We know exactly who never perishes - His sheep.
We know exactly where His sheep are - His hand.

If you do not fit into those categories you cannot say you are a 'recipient' of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, Jesus said this -

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We know exactly who gets eternal life - His sheep.
We know exactly who never perishes - His sheep.
We know exactly where His sheep are - His hand.

OK. Let's work with this. Is there any example or teaching that a sheep can become a goat? That's be your only trump card.

If you do not fit into those categories you cannot say you are a 'recipient' of eternal life.

Wrong. Jesus' point is that at the exact time He gives eternal life, that recipient will never perish.

That seems to be the "minor detail" that you're not dealing with. Why is that?

The view that a sheep can become an UN-sheep is false. There are no sheep that become goats or any other animal.

So, iow, once a sheep, always a sheep. OASAAS.
Once saved, always saved. OSAS
Once sealed, always sealed. OSAS
Once made alive, always alive. OMAAA

I could go on.

 

[Nathan]

OK. Let's work with this. Is there any example or teaching that a sheep can become a goat? That's be your only trump card.


Wrong. Jesus' point is that at the exact time He gives eternal life, that recipient will never perish.

That seems to be the "minor detail" that you're not dealing with. Why is that?

The view that a sheep can become an UN-sheep is false. There are no sheep that become goats or any other animal.

So, iow, once a sheep, always a sheep. OASAAS.
Once saved, always saved. OSAS
Once sealed, always sealed. OSAS
Once made alive, always alive. OMAAA

I could go on.

Trump card? A sheep cannot become a goat. That would be very ridiculous to believe. Vanity.

However, a sheep can die - it can be set aside for slaughter.

Jer 12:1-4
Righteous are you, O LORD,
when I complain to you;
yet I would plead my case before you.
Why does the way of the wicked prosper?
Why do all who are treacherous thrive?
You plant them, and they take root;
they grow and produce fruit;
you are near in their mouth
and far from their heart.
But you, O LORD, know me;
you see me, and test my heart toward you.
Pull them out like sheep for the slaughter,
and set them apart for the day of slaughter.
How long will the land mourn
and the grass of every field wither?
For the evil of those who dwell in it
the beasts and the birds are swept away,
because they said, “He will not see our latter end.”

Whats the difference between a sheep that never perishes, and one that is slaughtered? Location, location, location. Those in Christ will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Trump card? A sheep cannot become a goat. That would be very ridiculous to believe. Vanity.

Well, that's my point. Sheep cannot become goats.

Same with those who receive eternal life. They WILL NEVER PERISH.

However, a sheep can die - it can be set aside for slaughter.

The Bible contrasts sheep from goats, remember. You've just changed the goalposts.

My point remains. Jesus promised the recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. He gave no exceptions to that.

So there are none.

Whats the difference between a sheep that never perishes, and one that is slaughtered? Location, location, location. Those in Christ will never perish.

Please prove the insinuation that one who has been placed in Christ, meaning marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, can be:
UN-marked
UN-sealed
loss of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Jesus gave no exceptions or conditions for recipients of eternal life. They will never perish. John 10:28

Your insinuation cannot be proven from Scrlpture. Jesus taught eternal security in Jn 10:28.

Those who get eternal life will never perish.

 

[Nathan]

Well, that's my point. Sheep cannot become goats.

Same with those who receive eternal life. They WILL NEVER PERISH.


The Bible contrasts sheep from goats, remember. You've just changed the goalposts.

My point remains. Jesus promised the recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. He gave no exceptions to that.

So there are none.


Please prove the insinuation that one who has been placed in Christ, meaning marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, can be:
UN-marked
UN-sealed
loss of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Jesus gave no exceptions or conditions for recipients of eternal life. They will never perish. John 10:28

Your insinuation cannot be proven from Scrlpture. Jesus taught eternal security in Jn 10:28.

Those who get eternal life will never perish.

Actually, His sheep, who follow Him, who are in His hands, will never perish. I don't see where Jesus makes an exception for those who once followed Him and were once in Him.

Jesus taught eternal security in Him. Never teaching eternal security for those not in Him.

John 10:27 (ESV) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

John 10:28 (ESV) 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

If a person is not hearing His voice, following Him, and in His hands - they might want to see if what they believe is actually true. Unless that person wants to base their eternal security on what they believe?

 

[chessman]

Actually, His sheep, who follow Him, who are in His hands, will never perish.

Actually, Jesus said His sheep;
1) listen to His voice
2) follow Him
3) are given eternal life
4) will never perish forever
5) will not be seized out of my hand by no one

John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

I don't see where Jesus makes an exception for those who once followed Him and were once in Him.

Which Text are you referring to where Jesus discusses "those who once followed Him and were once in Him"?

Jesus discusses just how good a Shepherd He is, directly after describing how ridiculous a man is who begins something He's not able to finish:

Luke 14:29-31 Otherwise after he has laid the foundation and is not able to finish it, all who see it will begin to ridicule him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish!’ Or what king, going out to engage another king in battle, does not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand.​

Do you think Jesus is not able to finish what He started with His sheep?

Luke 15:2-6 And both the Pharisees and the scribes were complaining, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them!” So he told them this parable, saying, “What man of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the grassland and go after the one that was lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he returns to his home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost!’ ​

 

[Nathan]

Actually, Jesus said His sheep;
1) listen to His voice
2) follow Him
3) are given eternal life
4) will never perish forever
5) will not be seized out of my hand by no one

John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

Which Text are you referring to where Jesus discusses "those who once followed Him and were once in Him"?

Jesus discusses just how good a Shepherd He is, directly after describing how ridiculous a man is who begins something Ge's not able to finish:

Luke 14:29-31 Otherwise after he has laid the foundation and is not able to finish it, all who see it will begin to ridicule him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish!’ Or what king, going out to engage another king in battle, does not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand.​

Do you think Jesus is not able to finish what He started with His sheep?

Luke 15:2-6 And both the Pharisees and the scribes were complaining, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them!” So he told them this parable, saying, “What man of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the grassland and go after the one that was lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he returns to his home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost!’ ​

Well, Jesus gave us a parable of those who once believed then fell away. Judas would be another.

Hebrews 10 is the most specific passage of those who turn from following Him, who profane the blood of the covenant.

I don't see where there are exceptions made for them in John 10.

Jesus is definitely able to finish what He started. Which is why it is so foolish to leave the fold in search of 'greener pastures'(that is my metaphoric language for people who turn from Christ).

Romans 11:22 (ESV)
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Some sheep think too highly of theirselves. Their ears grow dull of hearing, and they quit following. They turn from their shepherd, their master.

Psalm 49
13 This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah
14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.

 

[chessman]

Well, Jesus gave us a parable of those who once believed then fell away.

Jesus said the good soil was the one example that understood the word about the kingdom.

Judas would be another.

Judas was a devil.

Hebrews 10 is the most specific passage of those who turn from following Him,

Okay, I agree. The "most specific" passage in the whole Bible of His sheep who "once followed Him and were once in Him" that lost their eternal life (the question I asked) doesn't even mention His sheep following Him or being in Him or eternal life once. It's an assumption on your part. A mere shadow of specifically talking about His sheep (the question I asked), not the thing itself.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, possessing a shadow of the good things that are about to come, not the form of things itself, is never able year by year by means of the same sacrifices which they offer without interruption to make perfect those who draw near. ​

 

[Nathan]

Jesus said the good soil was the one example that understood the word about the kingdom.


Judas was a devil.


Okay, I agree. The "most specific" passage in the whole Bible of His sheep who "once followed Him and were once in Him" that lost their eternal life (the question I asked) doesn't even mention His sheep following Him or being in Him or eternal life once. It's an assumption on your part. A mere shadow of specifically talking about His sheep (the question I asked), not the thing itself.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, possessing a shadow of the good things that are about to come, not the form of things itself, is never able year by year by means of the same sacrifices which they offer without interruption to make perfect those who draw near. ​

Judas was still chosen. Can someone Jesus chooses not be a sheep?

Do you believe someone has to understand the Gospel in order to be saved? What if someone just believes it? Do they have to believe and understand in order to be saved? Can you show me some passages that say this?

Sheep are metaphoric. The entire NT was not written in metaphoric language. We have to use reason to understand. We know His sheep are defined as ones who hear Him and follow Him. We know that only His sheep do this. So when we see passages of people who have heard Him and followed Him, we can reason they are/were His sheep.

John 8
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

 

[chessman]

Judas was still chosen. Can someone Jesus chooses not be a sheep?

Yes. One of the twelve was a devil, chosen by Jesus so that Scripture (Isaiah in this case) would be fully filled.

Matthew 26:25 And Judas, the one who was betraying him, answered and said, “Surely I am not he, am I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said it.” ​

Judas was chosen to fulfill Scripture (Isaiah 50 among others). Judas called Jesus Rabbi (never Lord) and kissed His face to betray Him;

Isaiah 50:4-6 The Lord Yahweh has given me the tongue of a pupil, to know how to help the weary with a word. He awakens morning by morning, awakens an ear for me to listen as do the pupils. The Lord Yahweh has opened an ear for me, and I, I was not rebellious. I did not turn backwards; I gave my back to those who struck me, and my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from insults and spittle. ​

Judas didn't understand that Jesus was/IS Lord.

Do you believe someone has to understand the Gospel in order to be saved?

Yes.

Isaiah 44:18 They do not know, and they do not understand, for their eyes are besmeared so that they cannot see, their minds so that they have no insight.​

John 8:43-47 Why do you not understand my way of speaking? Because you are not able to listen to my message. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling the truth, you do not believe me. Who among you convicts me concerning sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the words of God. Because of this you do not listen—because you are not of God.”​

Can you show me some passages that say this?

Yes. See those above and:

Matthew 13:19a When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.​

Only the "good soil" understood the word about the kingdom.

Can you show me where the parable of the sower refers to the "Gospel"?

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, His sheep, who follow Him, who are in His hands, will never perish.

It seems this is trying to force v.28 be a promise ONLY for those who follow Him. But John 5:24 shows plainly that one who believes HAS eternal life. Following Him is a lifestyle, over time. Believing is in a point in time. From the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE, possess, receive eternal life. And the promise is that they will never perish.

In John 10:28, the promise is clear; one will never perish by receiving eternal life. Nothing about any kind of lifestyle.

I don't see where Jesus makes an exception for those who once followed Him and were once in Him.

Why would He need to do this? His statement is clear enough. On the basis of receiving eternal life, one will never perish.

If there were conditions beyond receiving eternal life in order to never perish, Jesus would have made that clear.

But as it stands, He made no such exception or condition, beyond receiving eternal life.

Those who receive eternal life will never perish. Simple, clear, and straight forward. This is as plain as it can get.

Jesus taught eternal security in Him.

He never said this. What He said is that those He gives eternal life will never perish, which is eternal security.

Never teaching eternal security for those not in Him.

Are there any verses that speak to this?

John 10:27 (ESV) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Description of His sheep. And He taught how one becomes one of His sheep, back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Do you agree that the metaphor about being "the gate" and "entering through Me" refers to placing one's faith in Christ for salvation?

John 10:28 (ESV) 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

See? Nothing about being "in Me". Though I don't disagree that all believers are in Him, per Eph 1:13.

If a person is not hearing His voice, following Him, and in His hands - they might want to see if what they believe is actually true. Unless that person wants to base their eternal security on what they believe?

Is this a suggestion of being a fruit inspector to determine one's salvation?

My security is based directly on the promises of Scripture, not on my fallen flesh.

Grieving and quenching th Spirit are rampant today. Just look at all the Barna surveys and we see that born again believers are acting pretty much like unbelievers.

I've seen very little emphasis in pulpits today on the dangers and warning about grieving/quenching the Spirit.

Yet, Paul commands us to be filled with the Spirit and walk by means of the Spirit. This isn't automatic.

 

[Nathan]

Yes. One of the twelve was a devil, chosen by Jesus so that Scripture (Isaiah in this case) would be fully filled.

Matthew 26:25 And Judas, the one who was betraying him, answered and said, “Surely I am not he, am I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said it.” ​

Judas was chosen to fulfill Scripture (Isaiah 50 among others). Judas called Jesus Rabbi (never Lord) and kissed His face to betray Him;

Isaiah 50:4-6 The Lord Yahweh has given me the tongue of a pupil, to know how to help the weary with a word. He awakens morning by morning, awakens an ear for me to listen as do the pupils. The Lord Yahweh has opened an ear for me, and I, I was not rebellious. I did not turn backwards; I gave my back to those who struck me, and my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from insults and spittle. ​

Judas didn't understand that Jesus was/IS Lord.


Yes.

Isaiah 44:18 They do not know, and they do not understand, for their eyes are besmeared so that they cannot see, their minds so that they have no insight.​

John 8:43-47 Why do you not understand my way of speaking? Because you are not able to listen to my message. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling the truth, you do not believe me. Who among you convicts me concerning sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the words of God. Because of this you do not listen—because you are not of God.”​

Yes. See those above and:

Matthew 13:19a When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.​

Only the "good soil" understood the word about the kingdom.

Can you show me where the parable of the sower refers to the "Gospel"?

Do you 100% believe someone has to believe and understand in order to be saved, or is that just the position your leaning to?

The "Gospel" is the good news of the word of God. What other word of God is said for someone to believe in and be saved?

We know the seed on the path was snatched by the devil so they would not believe and be saved.

Luke 8:12 (ESV) 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

 

[chessman]

Do you 100% believe someone has to believe and understand in order to be saved, or is that just the position your leaning to?

I 100% believe someone has to believe in Him (Jesus Christ, the Son of God) and understand that Jesus is Lord (God) in order to be saved. Someone (like Judas) who believes Jesus was merely a good Rabbi is not saved.

Isaiah 43:10-13 “You are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh, “and my servant whom I have chosen so that you may know and believe in me and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none shall be after me. I myself am Yahweh, and there is no savior besides me! I myself declared and saved, and I proclaimed. And there was no strange god among you. And you are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh, “and I am God. Indeed, from this day I am the one, and no one can deliver from my hand. I perform, and who can cancel it?”

John 10:28-30 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” ​

The "Gospel" is the good news of the word of God. What other word of God is said for someone to believe in and be saved?

None. Please post and underline where in the parable of the sower that the "Gospel" is mentioned. Else, I believe you are assuming it to be the case whereas the actual Text says "the seed" sown is the word "about the kingdom".

Matthew 13:19a When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.​

We know the seed on the path was snatched by the devil so they would not believe and be saved.

I know. The path did not understand the word about the kingdom. Neither did the rock understand the word about the kingdom. In fact, Jesus (not me) says the "good soil" was "the one" that understood the word about the kingdom. Anyone else who hears it but does not understand it is snatched away.

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.” ​

​

 

[Nathan]

It seems this is trying to force v.28 be a promise ONLY for those who follow Him. But John 5:24 shows plainly that one who believes HAS eternal life. Following Him is a lifestyle, over time. Believing is in a point in time. From the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE, possess, receive eternal life. And the promise is that they will never perish.

In John 10:28, the promise is clear; one will never perish by receiving eternal life. Nothing about any kind of lifestyle.


Why would He need to do this? His statement is clear enough. On the basis of receiving eternal life, one will never perish.

If there were conditions beyond receiving eternal life in order to never perish, Jesus would have made that clear.

But as it stands, He made no such exception or condition, beyond receiving eternal life.

Those who receive eternal life will never perish. Simple, clear, and straight forward. This is as plain as it can get.


He never said this. What He said is that those He gives eternal life will never perish, which is eternal security.


Are there any verses that speak to this?


Description of His sheep. And He taught how one becomes one of His sheep, back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Do you agree that the metaphor about being "the gate" and "entering through Me" refers to placing one's faith in Christ for salvation?


See? Nothing about being "in Me". Though I don't disagree that all believers are in Him, per Eph 1:13.


Is this a suggestion of being a fruit inspector to determine one's salvation?

My security is based directly on the promises of Scripture, not on my fallen flesh.

Grieving and quenching th Spirit are rampant today. Just look at all the Barna surveys and we see that born again believers are acting pretty much like unbelievers.

I've seen very little emphasis in pulpits today on the dangers and warning about grieving/quenching the Spirit.

Yet, Paul commands us to be filled with the Spirit and walk by means of the Spirit. This isn't automatic.

If I was preaching I would definitely warn of grieving the Spirit.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I would especially note that it is not based on what you have done at a moment in time, but based on being in Christ, that you will not receive the punishment of the wicked.

I would tell them not to take refuge in their belief, in a time when they did something or said something, but rather take comfort in the Spirit who lives in them.

Funny thing is, most people today are trying to be convinced they have the Spirit in them. As if someone would not know that the very Spirit of God lives in them. False teachers are convincing them that the Spirit lives in them because they did something. Truth is, if the Spirit of God is in someone, then they will know it.

1 John 5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

If you have the Son you have life, without Him you do not have life.

If I were preaching, I would end with this - do you have the Son?

 

[Nathan]

I 100% believe someone has to believe in Him (Jesus Christ, the Son of God) and understand that Jesus is Lord (God) in order to be saved. Someone (like Judas) who believes Jesus was merely a good Rabbi is not saved.

Isaiah 43:10-13 “You are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh, “and my servant whom I have chosen so that you may know and believe in me and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none shall be after me. I myself am Yahweh, and there is no savior besides me! I myself declared and saved, and I proclaimed. And there was no strange god among you. And you are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh, “and I am God. Indeed, from this day I am the one, and no one can deliver from my hand. I perform, and who can cancel it?”

John 10:28-30 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” ​

None. Please post and underline where in the parable of the sower that the "Gospel" is mentioned. Else, I believe you are assuming it to be the case whereas the actual Text says "the seed" sown is the word "about the kingdom".

Matthew 13:19a When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.​

I know. The path did not understand the word about the kingdom. Neither did the rock understand the word about the kingdom. In fact, Jesus (not me) says the "good soil" was "the one" that understood the word about the kingdom. Anyone else who hears it but does not understand it is snatched away.

Matthew 13:23 But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.” ​

​

The Gospel is the good news about the kingdom.

Matthew 4:23 (ESV)
And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.

So is John 3:16 not true in your estimation because it says nothing of understanding?

Do you see that by requiring understanding of a person it makes salvation dependent on them?

John 20:30 (ESV) 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 20:31 (ESV) 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Do you think John accidentally left out the understanding requirement for salvation?

 

[chessman]

The Gospel is the good news about the kingdom.

Actually, Jesus began His ministry by preaching the good news about the kingdom of heaven being near. And it was nearly complete. Yet it took Peter and Andrew (for example) a few years and one dead and risen Savior for them to understand the Gospel.

Matt 4:12-16 LEB Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. And leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali, in order that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said,

“Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, toward the sea, on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and the ones who sit in the land and shadow of death, a light has dawned on them.”​

17 From that time on, Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, because the kingdom of heaven is near.”​

Do you see that by requiring understanding of a person it makes salvation dependent on them?

No. Not if you understand that it is God who gives understanding.

Psalm 119:130 The unfolding of your words gives light, giving understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:144 The righteousness of your testimonies is forever; give me understanding that I may live.
Psalm 119:169 Let my cry come before you, O Yahweh; give me understanding according to your word.​

Do you think John accidentally left out the understanding requirement for salvation?

No. He didn't leave it out. Some people do, however. John 3:16 is a snip (a portion) of His complete answer to Nicodemus' question (found in v 10-21) which very much includes understanding these things.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. "For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world [see Matt 4:16], and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, in order that his deeds may be revealed, that they are done in God.
​

Do you think Judas understood who Jesus was when he betrayed Him with a kiss?

 

[Nathan]

Actually, Jesus began His ministry by preaching the good news about the kingdom of heaven being near. And it was nearly complete. Yet it took Peter and Andrew (for example) a few years and one dead and risen Savior for them to understand the Gospel.

Matt 4:12-16 LEB Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. And leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali, in order that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said,

“Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, toward the sea, on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and the ones who sit in the land and shadow of death, a light has dawned on them.”​

17 From that time on, Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, because the kingdom of heaven is near.”​

No. Not if you understand that it is God who gives understanding.

Psalm 119:130 The unfolding of your words gives light, giving understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:144 The righteousness of your testimonies is forever; give me understanding that I may live.
Psalm 119:169 Let my cry come before you, O Yahweh; give me understanding according to your word.​

No. He didn't leave it out. Some people do, however. John 3:16 is a snip (a portion) of His complete answer to Nicodemus' question (found in v 10-21) which very much includes understanding these things.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. "For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world [see Matt 4:16], and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, in order that his deeds may be revealed, that they are done in God.
​

Do you think Judas understood who Jesus was when he betrayed Him with a kiss?

True, God does give understanding - so do you believe we have to understand God gives understanding before He will give it? That's still putting the basis of our salvation on us.

Jesus was stating that nicodemous was a supposed teacher, yet did not understand the things he taught. I do not think it's wise to pull that out, and apply it to the statement that whoever believes will be saved.

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
27 She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."

By requiring someone to understand the Gospel, before or after they believe it, in order to be saved is a lie. It's putting a yoke on someone that Christ never required.

Mark 1
14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

There are no passages that say understanding is required for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

If I was preaching I would definitely warn of grieving the Spirit.

Excellent. But where does one hear that in these days?

Speaking of that, would that warning include loss of salvation?

I would especially note that it is not based on what you have done at a moment in time, but based on being in Christ, that you will not receive the punishment of the wicked.

So, basically, a teaching that being IN CHRIST is fragile, and can be undone? Is that correct.

I would tell them not to take refuge in their belief, in a time when they did something or said something, but rather take comfort in the Spirit who lives in them.

Is the Holy Spirit's residence in a believer tenuous?

Funny thing is, most people today are trying to be convinced they have the Spirit in them.

Then "most people" need to read what Paul said about it:
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? Gal 3

Seems rather straightforward to me.

If you have the Son you have life, without Him you do not have life.

Which text says that one who has believed can "lose the Son"? In so many words.

If I were preaching, I would end with this - do you have the Son?

Good question. But I disagree with much of your theology.

When one believes, they are held in His hand. Nothing and no one can remove him/her from His hand. Self included.

That is why Jesus could promise that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28

 

[Nathan]

Excellent. But where does one hear that in these days?

Speaking of that, would that warning include loss of salvation?


So, basically, a teaching that being IN CHRIST is fragile, and can be undone? Is that correct.


Is the Holy Spirit's residence in a believer tenuous?


Then "most people" need to read what Paul said about it:
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? Gal 3

Seems rather straightforward to me.


Which text says that one who has believed can "lose the Son"? In so many words.


Good question. But I disagree with much of your theology.

When one believes, they are held in His hand. Nothing and no one can remove him/her from His hand. Self included.

That is why Jesus could promise that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28

Actually, Jesus said many would leave.

Again, if I were preaching, I'd also add that we should not try to add to or remove from the word of God. There is no place where it is even remotely thought that a person is not allowed to leave the faith.

Matthew 24
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus said the one who endures till the end will be saved, yet some preach that is not true. If I was preaching, I would tell people to be aware of false prophets who lead people astray. To be aware of those who teach lawlessness which brings death to the love they have.

I would preach that they know they are in Christ by their love of God and for the brothers. I would preach they should not take refuge in what they have done at an alter, or a prayer they said in a house of worship, or a thought they had when hearing a sermon.

No, I would preach that salvation is of God and given through His Son. I would preach that whoever has the Son has life, and without the Son there is no life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, Jesus said many would leave.

Yes He did. But could you at least include the specific text that is being referenced? Thanks.

Again, if I were preaching, I'd also add that we should not try to add to or remove from the word of God.

I strongly agree with this.

There is no place where it is even remotely thought that a person is not allowed to leave the faith.

Nor have I ever suggested that.

Jesus said the one who endures till the end will be saved, yet some preach that is not true.

One MUST understand the specific context for this verse. It's ONLY about the Tribulation, not applicable to anyone else.

I would preach that they know they are in Christ by their love of God and for the brothers.

I teach that one knows he/she is in Christ because the Bible says they have been marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14 This is eternal security.

I would never based a docrtrinal fact on emotions.

I would preach they should not take refuge in what they have done at an alter, or a prayer they said in a house of worship, or a thought they had when hearing a sermon.

The only focus is on WHOM they are trusting for their salvation.