salvation and the loss of it

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Should we dismiss what He gives? What did He say He gives in John 10:28?"

The 10th grade Algebra teacher says:
"In my class, I have students who apply themselves, who listen to my lectures, who without exception do their homework and study well through to the end.
I advance them on to the next level, 11th grade Calculus."

Who moves on to Calculus? Is it all of his students, or just the ones described in the first statement? Do you separate the second statement from the first so that everyone moves on to Calculus?

From the context, it is clear who will be moved on to Calculus; those students "who apply themselves, who listen to lectures, who w/o exception do their homework and study well through to the end. This is the CONDITION which determines WHO will be advanced.

It's clear to me that it is only the ones who devote themselves to will advance. I would be doing the class a great disservice if I told them in the beginning of the year, "It doesn't really matter. You heard what he said. He'll pass all of you onto Calculus. You don't need to devote yourselves to his instruction.".

I'm having a hard time seeing a connection between your example and Jesus unconditional promise in both john 5:24 and 10:28.

In your example, the only students advanced are those who applied themselves (work) and had skills and talent to meet the CONDITION.

There are no such CONDITIONS in God's plan for salvation beyond believing the gospel. And it's on that basis that Jesus UNCONDITIONALLY promises that those who believe will never perish. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28.

That would be an awful thing to do to his young students. In v28, the 'them' are the ones described in v27.

Actually, the "them" in v.28 are those who "entered through Me" back in v.9, by which they became saved.

Salvation is not a matter of "following Him", but of believing in Him for salvation. Only those who are saved are commanded to follow Him. But they have to be taught, which is where discipleship comes in.

Those sheep who are not discipled most likely will not follow Him.

But to add the condition of following Him as a condition for never perishing violates the very wording of the text.

The only condition for never perishing is to receive eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or, maybe he reads Greek grammar texts, as I do.

Is snarkiness necessary? I've always acknowledged my reliance on the scholarly work of others.

Why is what I said snarky??
MANY POSTERS THINK they know about the aorist tense.
I've said many times that they do NOT.
Reading Greek lexicons does NOT mean you understand Greek or the aorist tense.
Anyone who DOES understand it will make exactly the statement that Gregg T made.

I've said many times on these threads that I'm friendly with a theologian who knows koine Greek, amongst other languages,
and he said EXACTLY what Gregg T said. This is also what he stated.

It is NOT a past belief that carries over into the future. That is too simplistic of an explanation. The aorist tense is very complicated and we should not even be attempting to use it.

All we need to know has been translated for us in the New Testament. No Greek is necessary except to theologians who need to know minute details. We have enough problems trying to agree on big concepts.

Do you think it's possible to learn a language from google or from texts in a book?
NO. So why would Greek be any different??

For instance, when I speak Italian, I don't rely on scholarly works, (like you do for Greek) I speak it because I KNOW it.

 

[GodsGrace]

agreed but the debate is about can you or can you not lose your salvation

Nathan did make the point Ezra.
MAN IS ALIVE IN CHRIST.
OUT OF CHRIST, man is dead. Christ if the life-giving force. Without Christ, we do not have the life-giving force.

Here's what Nathan said.
Nathan said: ↑
Man sinned, man died, Christ came, Christ died, man is made alive in Christ.

This is such an easy concept that it amazes me when it is not understood.

 

[Nathan]

Yes.


Paul also taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, eternal life being one of them. Does that not count at all?

Plus, Jesus' promise in John 5:24 and 10:28 are UNCONDITIONAL. Does that not count either?


Of course he was corrrect. But your misunderstanding is the incorrect view.


To "hold fast" means to possess. Not using one's fingers to grasp an object.

And "believed in vain" is a reference to believing anything OTHER THAN the fact that Christ is the Son of God, who died for our sins and GUARANTEES eternal life (eternal security) for those who believe in Him.

1Co 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

All of the teaching counts. So a believer should not discount one to believe another. It is possible to understand that eternal life is in us, we will never perish, and we are being saved in the Gospel.

The problem arises when someone tries to teach that you can leave Christ and His Gospel, and still be saved. Paul makes a very direct statement above.

Do you believe we are being saved by the Gospel(the one that Paul preached), which we receive and stand in? If we are, then how will we be saved if we walk away from it?

Jhn 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.

 

[Mike]

'm having a hard time seeing a connection between your example and Jesus unconditional promise in both john 5:24 and 10:28.

Of course, I'm talking about separating John 10:28 to stand on its own. With confidence, you link the teacher's two statements, but with even greater confidence, you separate 28 from 27.

I'm trying to help you see the connection. Why link one but not the other without question?

 

[GodsGrace]

1Co 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

All of the teaching counts. So a believer should not discount one to believe another. It is possible to understand that eternal life is in us, we will never perish, and we are being saved in the Gospel.

The problem arises when someone tries to teach that you can leave Christ and His Gospel, and still be saved. Paul makes a very direct statement above.

Do you believe we are being saved by the Gospel(the one that Paul preached), which we receive and stand in? If we are, then how will we be saved if we walk away from it?

Jhn 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.

(you have too much common sense)

 

[Nathan]

Why assume one can "leave" from being "in Him", when Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 guarantee our being in Him for the day of redemption?


Yes, they quit believing.


How does the Word of God die? That doesn't make sense.


Jesus unconditionally promised in John 5:24 that those who believe:
1. HAVE (possess) eternal life. A life, btw, that CANNOT DIE, OR PERISH.
2. WILL NOT come into judgment. Meaning, will never perish in the lake of fire.
3. HAS PASSED from death to life.

So your claim is in direct opposition to what Jesus said in that verse.


Without any Scripture to support this claim, it is just an opinion.


No need to "suppose" anything. Jesus stated unconditionally that those he gives eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security.

No conditions to the recipients of eternal life.

The word of God 'dies' by becoming separated from the believer. Jesus explained it this way;

Rev 3:1-6
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

If you leave Christ you have no life. Christ dwells in us through faith.

2Co 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why is what I said snarky??

How about "sarcastic" then?

MANY POSTERS THINK they know about the aorist tense.

What I've posted comes DIRECTLY from a Greek grammar text. Have you read from a Greek grammar text, or searched the internet and found Greek grammar guides online?

I've said many times that they do NOT.

Are you an expert on the beliefs or views of anyone else?

Reading Greek lexicons does NOT mean you understand Greek or the aorist tense.

I wonder how many of those who are scholarly in the Greek HAVEN'T ever read any lexicon or grammar text?

The ONLY WAY one becomes an expert is by READING from grammar texts and lexicons.

I've said many times on these threads that I'm friendly with a theologian who knows koine Greek, amongst other languages,
and he said EXACTLY what Gregg T said. This is also what he stated.

OK. How did he get to "know" koine Greek?

It is NOT a past belief that carries over into the future. That is too simplistic of an explanation. The aorist tense is very complicated and we should not even be attempting to use it.

So we just ignore it??

Rather, let's educate ourselves on the subject:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

All we need to know has been translated for us in the New Testament.

That is a very simplistic view. The English doesn't have all the tenses that the Greek does. We NEED to know what they are and mean.

I will not stick my head in the sand like an ostrich.

No Greek is necessary except to theologians who need to know minute details. We have enough problems trying to agree on big concepts.

This seems very naive to me.

Do you think it's possible to learn a language from google or from texts in a book?

I learned German from text books. Was that invalid?

NO. So why would Greek be any different??

I don't follow your question. Everyone learns language from text books. Even English.

For instance, when I speak Italian, I don't rely on scholarly works, (like you do for Greek) I speak it because I KNOW it.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

Nathan did make the point Ezra.
MAN IS ALIVE IN CHRIST.
OUT OF CHRIST, man is dead.

Please direct us to the text that teaches that one who has been marked in Him with a seal can become "out of Christ". That phrase seem foreign to the Bible. But maybe there's a verse that addresses this conundrum, since this marking with a seal, being the Holy Spirit is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

Christ if the life-giving force. Without Christ, we do not have the life-giving force.

True. And not the issue.

The argument is the claim that one who from having believed, and marked in Him with a seal can be removed from Him, since the Holy Spirit is the GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Eph 1:14

What is your understanding of Eph 1:13,14?

 

[GodsGrace]

How about "sarcastic" then?


What I've posted comes DIRECTLY from a Greek grammar text. Have you read from a Greek grammar text, or searched the internet and found Greek grammar guides online?


Are you an expert on the beliefs or views of anyone else?


I wonder how many of those who are scholarly in the Greek HAVEN'T ever read any lexicon or grammar text?

The ONLY WAY one becomes an expert is by READING from grammar texts and lexicons.


OK. How did he get to "know" koine Greek?


So we just ignore it??

Rather, let's educate ourselves on the subject:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm


That is a very simplistic view. The English doesn't have all the tenses that the Greek does. We NEED to know what they are and mean.

I will not stick my head in the sand like an ostrich.


This seems very naive to me.


I learned German from text books. Was that invalid?


I don't follow your question. Everyone learns language from text books. Even English.

For instance, when I speak Italian, I don't rely on scholarly works, (like you do for Greek) I speak it because I KNOW it.

[/QUOTE]
He speaks Koine Greek like YOU speak English.

Whateva FreeGrace.
I tire.

 

[FreeGrace]

1Co 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

All of the teaching counts. So a believer should not discount one to believe another.

That seems to be what I'm seeing.

It is possible to understand that eternal life is in us, we will never perish, and we are being saved in the Gospel.

What's not possible to understand is the notion that oe who has been marked in Him with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee, no less, for the day of redemption, can assume that one so sealed can be removed from this guaranteed mark and indwelling of the Spirit.

The problem arises when someone tries to teach that you can leave Christ and His Gospel, and still be saved.

No one can "leave Christ". Paul made that clear in Eph 1:13,14 by the words "a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption" in Eph 1:13,14. So it's pure presumption to think that a sealed person can become unsealed.

Do you believe we are being saved by the Gospel(the one that Paul preached), which we receive and stand in? If we are, then how will we be saved if we walk away from it?

Because Paul also taught that a person marked in Him with the Holy Spirit is GUARANTEED of their inheritance for the day of redemption. How is that NOT eternal security?

Jhn 8:51

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.

From a host of verses, it's clear that to "keep My word" means to believe My promise of eternal life.

Those who believe His promise of eternal life are given eternal life, and they will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course, I'm talking about separating John 10:28 to stand on its own. With confidence, you link the teacher's two statements, but with even greater confidence, you separate 28 from 27.

I'm trying to help you see the connection. Why link one but not the other without question?

Your example included conditions for advancing. Jesus gave no such conditions for recipients of eternal life.

Also, your example included human effort (works), which are irrelevant for receiving eternal life and inherent talent, which is irrelevant for who God saves.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please direct us to the text that teaches that one who has been marked in Him with a seal can become "out of Christ". That phrase seem foreign to the Bible. But maybe there's a verse that addresses this conundrum, since this marking with a seal, being the Holy Spirit is a guarantee for the day of redemption.


True. And not the issue.

The argument is the claim that one who from having believed, and marked in Him with a seal can be removed from Him, since the Holy Spirit is the GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Eph 1:14

What is your understanding of Eph 1:13,14?

Believe what you wish FreeGrace.
It's between you and God.

I just hope those reading along who may need some guidance can see how unreasonable your position is.

It is unreasonable because you CANNOT take a verse or two and make doctrine out of it.

BTW, John Calvin, who started this whole idea, would have been considered an anti-Christ by the early church theologians.
NONE OF THEM believed in eternal security except for Mr. Augustine who didn't agree with everyone else on anything and THOUGHT he knew where evil came from, till, later in life, he realized he really didn't.

John 8:36
If the Son makes us free, we shall be free indeed.
Free from what? Satan would be one thing --- his infulence.

IF someone ABANDONS Christ, is he still free?
NO. Because he is once again a slave to satan.

Can a slave to satan go to heaven??

 

[GodsGrace]

Your example included conditions for advancing. Jesus gave no such conditions for recipients of eternal life.

Also, your example included human effort (works), which are irrelevant for receiving eternal life and inherent talent, which is irrelevant for who God saves.

Jesus gave plenty of conidtions.
I've listed them for you at least twice.
Why can you NOT accept them?
See Mathew 5-7
See Mathew 25
See Romans 13-16
See James
etc
etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please direct us to the text that teaches that one who has been marked in Him with a seal can become "out of Christ". That phrase seem foreign to the Bible. But maybe there's a verse that addresses this conundrum, since this marking with a seal, being the Holy Spirit is a guarantee for the day of redemption.


True. And not the issue.

The argument is the claim that one who from having believed, and marked in Him with a seal can be removed from Him, since the Holy Spirit is the GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Eph 1:14

What is your understanding of Eph 1:13,14?

LOL
I've answered this so many times FG, I know it by heart.

Have a nice day...

 

[FreeGrace]

The word of God 'dies' by becoming separated from the believer.

Again, how can the Word of God DIE??? Your answer here doesn't address that.

If you leave Christ you have no life.

I will continue to challenge this presumption that one can "leave Christ" in the sense of beiing unsealed from Eph 1:13,14. Those verses teach that the indwelling Spirit is our gauarantee for our inheritance for the day of redemption.

How is that not eternal security?

Christ dwells in us through faith.

Absolutely. But what text teaches that we can become unsealed, or unmarked, or unsaved by ceasing to believe?

2Co 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test![/QUOTE]
Paul is challenging the mostly carnal Corinthians to examine themselves to see if they are living the Christian life. Not whether they are saved. Because we CANNOT look to ourselves to determine that.

By looking into yourself doesn't determine if we are saved. But it DOES determine if our lifestyle is in line with the Christian life.

 

[FreeGrace]

He speaks Koine Greek like YOU speak English.

My question was HOW he came to KNOW the Greek?

Whateva FreeGrace.

Whatever is right.

I tire.

Sleep generally works.

 

[GodsGrace]

My question was HOW he came to KNOW the Greek?


Whatever is right.


Sleep generally works.

"Sleep generally works"

Yes. That's not snarky.
It's just YOU.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe what you wish FreeGrace.

No, I believe what the Word of God SAYS.

It's between you and God.

For ALL of us.

I just hope those reading along who may need some guidance can see how unreasonable your position is.

How about some actual and specific explanation of how and where I'm so unreasonable?

Charges are easy to throw. And cheap. Is there any meat in yours?

It is unreasonable because you CANNOT take a verse or two and make doctrine out of it.

What seems totally unreasonable to me is claiming a doctrine (loss of salvation) WHEN Jesus specifically and clearly promised eternal security.

IF someone ABANDONS Christ, is he still free?

He was free to do that, and will face painful discipline from the Lord, per Heb 12:11. But one is NOT FREE to unseal themself, or unmark themself. Or remove themself from Jesus' hand.

Can a slave to satan go to heaven??

Only those who "having believed" have been marked in Him with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

You've claimed that I've made a doctrine out of several verses. OK. Please explain how these 2 verses DON'T teach etrenal security.

Or how John 5:24 and 10:28 DON'T teach eternal security.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus gave plenty of conidtions.

Yep. But ONLY 1 for how to receive eternal life and NONE for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

I've listed them for you at least twice.
Why can you NOT accept them?

I've explained them all. What I don't accept is your use of them to support your view, which I also don't accept.

See Mathew 5-7
See Mathew 25
See Romans 13-16
See James
etc
etc.

The use of "etc" only shows there are none. Throwing in whole chapters is just as "helpful".

How about this claim: The Bible teaches eternal security from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22. That's basically what was done here.

otoh, I've given specific verses that specifically speak of eternal security by the phrase "will never perish".

But these are set aside in favor of general and non specific verses about losing salvation.

There are no verses that contain specific wording relating to loss of salvation. All of such verses require assumption about what words mean.

Which isn't the case for Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29.