salvation and the loss of it

[Gregg T]

Oh my, no.
This is not what I said.
Sorry you understood it this way.
Let's just let it go.

I heard your words, believed them, but lacked the correct understanding.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is actually off topic but for clarity's sake I'll ask. The English translations were not completed by individual persons but rather teams of scholars and learned persons. It goes without saying that there were probably disagreements about the correct translation during the process and eventually they settled on a final result. How can any one of us claim to know better than they? I'm still going to trust that those who translated the Scriptures from the ancient text did so with God's direction and with diligence and I must take their version before any one individual's version, including my own.

Except when "their" version of any verse (many, many translations to choose from) doesn't contradict any other verse. We must be on guard for that possibility.

Given Paul's encouraging words in 2 Tim 2:15, and with the many Greek helps we now have, it seems reasonable that a believer who does diligence by study can understand what the Holy Spirit meant.

However, the believer must be in fellowship in order to understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

I heard your words, believed them, but lacked the correct understanding.

No problem.
I reread my post. It seems OK.
We'll get to know each other !!
Did I welcome you to the forum?
Welcome!

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But I don't understand how anyone can believe that salvation can be lost when Jesus promised unconditionally that those He gives eternal life will never perish, from John 10:28.
The obvious point is that, from the moment of one being given eternal life, Jesus said they will never perish. No conditions.
You've not shown that's what it's referring to. You're making an assumption only. In spite of the clear verses on eternal security."

You may not understand simply because of who taught you the things that you know.

Why would you question who I was taught by?? My views come straight from the Bible. Nearly word for word, unlike the teaching of loss of salvation.

Its ok to not understand. There are a lot of people who do not understand.

You've misunderstand what I said. I don't understand your views, given the very plain language of eternal security.

And your comments suggest that somehow you've been taught correctly, as I've been taught incorrectly.

A little presumptuous.

I am not sure who taught you the things you speak about, but they added words into passages that simply are not there.

Oh, this is the first time THAT'S been suggested.

So, please explain what words were added to specific verses.

The single sentence that you keep referring to in John 10:28 is speaking of the sheep that Jesus spoke of in the previous sentence.

Sure. His sheep. But trying to force "following Him" as a condition for never perishing is false.

What is clear is that from the simple reception of eternal life, one will never perish. Nothing about having to abide, etc.

Jesus never said that those who do not follow Him have eternal life and will never perish - again - Jesus never said that those who do not follow Him have eternal life and will never perish.

What He did say was clear enough. Those He gives eternal life will never perish. A true statement and ends all argument, or should.

But given this idea about "following Him" a being a requirement, we know that "following Him" is a lifestyle. How long must one "follow Him", and how muchd? 100%? 80%? 50%. What, exactly? And that's the problem. To "follow Him" cannot be quantified in any meaningful way. Even Jesus' disciples didn't follow Him very well.

The only thing that can be quantified is believing in Him. Which is Jesus' only criteria for receiving eternal life.

It also brings up another issue; when does Jesus give eternal life to people? At the beginning of their faith, or at the end of their life?

 

[ezra]

Nathan did make the point Ezra.
MAN IS ALIVE IN CHRIST.
OUT OF CHRIST, man is dead. Christ if the life-giving force. Without Christ, we do not have the life-giving force.

Here's what Nathan said.
Nathan said: ↑
Man sinned, man died, Christ came, Christ died, man is made alive in Christ.

This is such an easy concept that it amazes me when it is not understood.

well thank you for posting what nathan had posted that i had already read. I CAN READ I ALSO KNOW WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY ..SO THE QUESTION ISSSSSSSSSSSSS ARE WE ETERNALLY SECURED TO THE POINT .THAT NO MATTER WHAT WE WILL NOT LOSE OUR SALVATION ...OR CAN WE LOSE IT WALK AWAY FROM IT... this is the debate

 

[Nathan]

It also brings up another issue; when does Jesus give eternal life to people? At the beginning of their faith, or at the end of their life?

I think this is where you simply are missing the point.

1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Why always focus on when? The focus of the truth is on where the life is.

Eternal life is in Christ - if you have Christ you have life, if you do not have Christ you do not have life.

If you base it on when then you get confused. The NT never puts when above where. In Christ you have life, He gives life to His sheep. Leave Christ and you leave life.

 

[Nathan]

well thank you for posting what nathan had posted that i had already read. I CAN READ I ALSO KNOW WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY ..SO THE QUESTION ISSSSSSSSSSSSS ARE WE ETERNALLY SECURED TO THE POINT .THAT NO MATTER WHAT WE WILL NOT LOSE OUR SALVATION ...OR CAN WE LOSE IT WALK AWAY FROM IT... this is the debate

Did Judas choose to betray Jesus and walk away from the Life?

 

[ezra]

Did Judas choose to betray Jesus and walk away from the Life?

this is not a court of law..... i have posted on this many times pros cons .this is a subject that draws much fire

 

[Mike]

My views come straight from the Bible. Nearly word for word

This is true of the verses you are willing to acknowledge. Your views are shaped by part of scripture; not all of it. They aren't impacted by the verses you don't. So, what you say appears to be spot on. Your views come straight from word-for-word scripture; just not all of it.

As confident as I am that you will never allow yourself to accept that the "them" in John 10:28 is defined in the preceding verse in one constant Truth, I am confident that readers following along see your lack of reasoning. I'll say again that you do yourself a disservice. Credibility is sacrificed when one continuously challenges people for something he has no intention of ever accepting.

 

[ezra]

Did Judas choose to betray Jesus and walk away from the Life?

was Judas truly saved ?

the point i am trying to make but often in these type discussions (like beating A dead horse}
we really dont know . we do know we are and can be secure in Christ and our salvation is kept by the power of GOD. does that give us eternal security to the point if we revert back to our old way of life ? many questions go UN answered .those who believe o s a s / Eternal security the answer will be yes. backed up by scripture . then those who believe you can walk way be lost again they say yes.backed up by scripture i have read many debates on this subject can/ can not . yes i have studied this out for many years . i think paul wrote it best
Philippians 2:12King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

john wrote 1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
so this we do know

 

[Jethro Bodine]

we do know we are and can be secure in Christ and our salvation is kept by the power of GOD.

You left off the 'by faith' part. We are "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB bold mine). Freegrace OSAS is the doctrine that neglects that essential element of faith for one to have the power of God unto salvation. Calvinist OSAS, of course, does recognize the necessity for a continuing faith, and it says that you will indeed always have that faith if you truly believed to begin with, and if you don't continue in faith you were never really saved to begin with. But that doctrine has problems of it's own in regard to surety and security. Non-OSAS is actually the doctrine of surety and security: As long as you believe in Christ you have the surety and security of salvation and eternal life. Simple. No need to twist and explain scriptures to teach that....just read them and take them for what they plainly say.

does that give us eternal security to the point if we revert back to our old way of life ? many questions go UN answered .those who believe o s a s / Eternal security the answer will be yes.

Calvinist's won't say that. They say if you go back you were never really saved to begin with, and, therefore, your backsliding is unto the damnation you had all along. It is Freegrace OSAS that says you can believe, then deny Christ, even worship Allah, and you are still saved. Absurd, but that is the doctrine that is sweeping through the church right now. Just in time for the fulfillment of end-time prophecy in my opinion.

 

[Nathan]

was Judas truly saved ?

the point i am trying to make but often in these type discussions (like beating A dead horse}
we really dont know . we do know we are and can be secure in Christ and our salvation is kept by the power of GOD. does that give us eternal security to the point if we revert back to our old way of life ? many questions go UN answered .those who believe o s a s / Eternal security the answer will be yes. backed up by scripture . then those who believe you can walk way be lost again they say yes.backed up by scripture i have read many debates on this subject can/ can not . yes i have studied this out for many years . i think paul wrote it best
Philippians 2:12King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

john wrote 1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
so this we do know

I think we can know if he was 'saved'.

What are the 'requirements' of salvation? Did Judas 'meet' them?

I say he did. He was chosen by God, and given to Christ, and Christ accepted him. He followed Christ, and Christ specifically stated only His sheep follow Him. This is how we know based on one example of what is 'required'.

We can also know because of what Jesus said about him. Jesus said that he was "lost" from the 12. That means he was apart of them, but separated himself from them, and never came back.

So, if we were to say Judas was not 'saved', then we have to apply that to the rest of the 12.

Now, we could say that none of them were 'saved' until after Judas left, if we had evidence of it. But if there is none, then we can 'know' Judas chose to turn away from life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It also brings up another issue; when does Jesus give eternal life to people? At the beginning of their faith, or at the end of their life?"

I think this is where you simply are missing the point.

Given your views on the requirement of "following Him" in order to receive eternal life, it is THE ISSUE.

When does one receive the gift of eternal life? The answer to that will show that including ANY conditions other than simply receiving eternal life, is false.

1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Why always focus on when?

Because it will show that the requirement of "following Him" in order to receive eternal life to be false. That's why.

The focus of the truth is on where the life is.

There's where I'm focused. On what Jesus promised in John 5:24 (speaks of WHEN one HAS eternal life) and John 10:28 (speaks of the result of receiving eternal life).

Eternal life is in Christ - if you have Christ you have life, if you do not have Christ you do not have life.

True statement. But this isn't the point or issue at all. The claim that one can "lose" Christ has not been shown.

And the opposite has been shown from Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. We are sealed for the day of redemption. That is eternal security.

If you base it on when then you get confused.

No, basing on WHEN one receives eternal life refutes the claim that "following Him" is required in order to never perish. Only receiving the gift is required for never perishing.

The NT never puts when above where.

I never said it did. But why would anyone dismiss WHEN one receives eternal life? Only when they claim that lifestyle is required in order to never perish.

In Christ you have life, He gives life to His sheep. Leave Christ and you leave life.

This cannot be proven from Scripture. In fact, one who receives eternal life is promised by Jesus of never perishing.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"It also brings up another issue; when does Jesus give eternal life to people? At the beginning of their faith, or at the end of their life?"

Given your views on the requirement of "following Him" in order to receive eternal life, it is THE ISSUE.

When does one receive the gift of eternal life? The answer to that will show that including ANY conditions other than simply receiving eternal life, is false.


Because it will show that the requirement of "following Him" in order to receive eternal life to be false. That's why.


There's where I'm focused. On what Jesus promised in John 5:24 (speaks of WHEN one HAS eternal life) and John 10:28 (speaks of the result of receiving eternal life).


True statement. But this isn't the point or issue at all. The claim that one can "lose" Christ has not been shown.

And the opposite has been shown from Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. We are sealed for the day of redemption. That is eternal security.


No, basing on WHEN one receives eternal life refutes the claim that "following Him" is required in order to never perish. Only receiving the gift is required for never perishing.


I never said it did. But why would anyone dismiss WHEN one receives eternal life? Only when they claim that lifestyle is required in order to never perish.


This cannot be proven from Scripture. In fact, one who receives eternal life is promised by Jesus of never perishing.

You think that I say things which I do not.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

If you wish to continue a discussion with me you will have to quit saying things that are not true about me, and you will have to quit taking my words out of context.

I think that if you quit doing the second, then the first will correct itself. Much like what happens when we quit taking Bible passages out of context - the truth begins to be revealed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"My views come straight from the Bible. Nearly word for word"

This is true of the verses you are willing to acknowledge. Your views are shaped by part of scripture; not all of it.

This suggests that the Bible teaches both that one can lose salvation and never lose salvation. How can that be true?

They aren't impacted by the verses you don't. So, what you say appears to be spot on. Your views come straight from word-for-word scripture; just not all of it.

I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself in any area. It seems this is a suggestion otherwise.

As confident as I am that you will never allow yourself to accept that the "them" in John 10:28 is defined in the preceding verse in one constant Truth, I am confident that readers following along see your lack of reasoning.

I have acknowledged who the "them" are in v.27; believers, and Jesus described them as following Him. But that's not the issue. The issue is regarding who will never perish. If it is based on "following Him", then that involves a lifestyle during a lifetime.

So, WHEN does Jesus give eternal life? That's the issue that resolves the claim that lifestyle is in any way involved in never perishing.

It's clear that one must have eternal life. So WHEN one receives it is important to really understand Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28.

John 5:24 shows that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That would apply WHEN they first believed. So, on that basis, those who receive eternal life are promised to never perish.

I'll say again that you do yourself a disservice. Credibility is sacrificed when one continuously challenges people for something he has no intention of ever accepting.

Of course I'll never accept any idea that contradicts any other Scripture. I don't know why anyone would do that.

 

[ezra]

You left off the 'by faith' part. We are "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB bold mine). Freegrace OSAS is the doctrine that neglects that essential element of faith for one to have the power of God unto salvation. Calvinist OSAS, of course, does recognize the necessity for a continuing faith, and it says that you will indeed always have that faith if you truly believed to begin with, and if you don't continue in faith you were never really saved to begin with. But that doctrine has problems of it's own in regard to surety and security. Non-OSAS is actually the doctrine of surety and security: As long as you believe in Christ you have the surety and security of salvation and eternal life. Simple. No need to twist and explain scriptures to teach that....just read them and take them for what they plainly say.


Calvinist's won't say that. They say if you go back you were never really saved to begin with, and, therefore, your backsliding is unto the damnation you had all along. It is Freegrace OSAS that says you can believe, then deny Christ, even worship Allah, and you are still saved. Absurd, but that is the doctrine that is sweeping through the church right now. Just in time for the fulfillment of end-time prophecy in my opinion.

yes i am fully aware of how the calvinist believe p.o.s preservation of saints .i post in a arm calv forum .get booted out a lot for butting heads... yes through faith how much faith does it take ? and i am full aware of the osas teaching.. i see good points and bad points in both.

 

[Nathan]

Does OSAS lead people to Christ, or does it lead them away?

Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

 

[FreeGrace]

Does OSAS lead people to Christ, or does it lead them away?

The same could be said for OSNAS. Believe in Christ and MAYBE you'll never perish and avoid hell.

Or, from OSAS, believe in Christ, and you'll never perish.

Which one sounds better?

Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

They sure do lead people astray.

Satan loves nothing MORE than to deceive people into thinking that their salvation is up to them by what they do, or avoid doing, like lifestyle.

What many people don't understand is that Satan isn't interested in getting people to sin as he is to mess with their theology.

One of the best ways to mess with believers is to lead them to believe that they aren't secure in Christ, though they are.

 

[Nathan]

The same could be said for OSNAS. Believe in Christ and MAYBE you'll never perish and avoid hell.

Or, from OSAS, believe in Christ, and you'll never perish.

Which one sounds better?


They sure do lead people astray.

Satan loves nothing MORE than to deceive people into thinking that their salvation is up to them by what they do, or avoid doing, like lifestyle.

What many people don't understand is that Satan isn't interested in getting people to sin as he is to mess with their theology.

One of the best ways to mess with believers is to lead them to believe that they aren't secure in Christ, though they are.

I see you skirt the issue. Does OSAS lead people to Christ or not? Does it lead people to Christ and say you are secure here, or does it lead people away and say your secure over here?

I am not sure of this "OSNAS" thing you speak of. I don't hold to anything like that.

I hold to the fact that Christ gives life to His sheep. And those who have the Son have life.

The best way to mess with everyone(believers and unbelievers) is to accuse someone of saying something they are not.

Have I ever stated that a person is not secure in Christ? Have you ever stated someone can be secure who is not in Christ?

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[Nathan]

Which one sounds better?

2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.


It should not be about what sounds better, but what is true and leads to Christ.