salvation and the loss of it

[ezra]

If Judas was not saved why is it he was lost.. Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

got folks to thinking

 

[reba]

I went to 'like'your post and there aint no like button so i made one.

 

[ezra]

I went to 'like'your post and there aint no like button so i made one.

ok there is not one on yours either

 

[Gregg T]

Ironic

Colossians 1
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

I trust you notice the "if".

I noticed the "if" for what it means; you did not.

The "if" in Col 1:23 is a first class condition, used to affirm the writer thinks what follows is true. Also notice that there is no following apodosis with a "then" statement, meaning that he did not state a consequence to the "if."

Paul was not speaking about believing or the possibility of ceasing to believe. He did not say 'if you continue believing'

Paul was speaking about the manner of adherence to the Gospel which they heard at first; the manner being stable, steadfast, not shifting.

Paul did not say 'shifting from Christ' or 'shifting from believing'; but he did say "shifting from the hope of the Gospel." Hope is a confident expectation for something yet to happen.

 

[reba]

Isn't the hope of the gospel eternal life with the King?

 

[Nathan]

I noticed the "if" for what it means; you did not.

The "if" in Col 1:23 is a first class condition, used to affirm the writer thinks what follows is true. Also notice that there is no following apodosis with a "then" statement, meaning that he did not state a consequence to the "if."

Paul was not speaking about believing or the possibility of ceasing to believe. He did not say 'if you continue believing'

Paul was speaking about the manner of adherence to the Gospel which they heard at first; the manner being stable, steadfast, not shifting.

Paul did not say 'shifting from Christ' or 'shifting from believing'; but he did say "shifting from the hope of the Gospel." Hope is a confident expectation for something yet to happen.

I suppose that Colossians could be misunderstood. However, I am pretty sure Paul didn't just 'think', he knew the truth.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.

There is absolutely no reason to include the second half of his sentence if it were not factual.

 

[ezra]

Isn't the hope of the gospel eternal life with the King?

yes it is

 

[Gregg T]

I suppose that Colossians could be misunderstood. However, I am pretty sure Paul didn't just 'think', he knew the truth.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.

There is absolutely no reason to include the second half of his sentence if it were not factual.

1Cor 15:1-2 does not even touch upon continually believing in order to stay saved.

The absolute reason the second half was included is that . . . some were claiming there was no resurrection, a critical element of the gospel. Belief in a savior who was not resurrected from the dead would have been a vain belief.

If Christ did not rise from the dead, then He was not the one God proved to be His Messiah.

1 Cor 15:13-14 "But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless."

Now what else has 'absolutely no reason' to you?

 

[Nathan]

1Cor 15:1-2 does not even touch upon continually believing in order to stay saved.

The absolute reason the second half was included is that . . . some were claiming there was no resurrection, a critical element of the gospel. Belief in a savior who was not resurrected from the dead would have been a vain belief.

If Christ did not rise from the dead, then He was not the one God proved to be His Messiah.

1 Cor 15:13-14 "But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless."

Now what else has 'absolutely no reason' to you?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.



I guess I'm not sure I have the kind of reason to make what is said above something else besides the Gospel, being saved, and holding fast.

The only thing that has 'absolutely no reason' is why you think I may believe someone has to "continually believe" in order to stay saved. I've never said that have I? Hopefully you were not thinking that, but it does seem you insinuate it.

Paul is pretty clear - reminding the reader of the Gospel he preached, in which they stood(not outside of it), by which they were being saved, if they hold fast to that word preached(the Gospel?).

Maybe your translation doesn't use the word "if"?

 

[Nathan]

Gregg T

I believe it was you and I who both agree that Hebrews was probably written by Paul right? If not, I apologize. Regardless, Hebrews also has that little word that seems to be in conflict.

Hebrews 3:1-6
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house.
For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
(For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)
Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Do you believe someone cannot be apart of Christs 'house' and yet still be in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1Cor 15:1-2 does not even touch upon continually believing in order to stay saved.

The absolute reason the second half was included is that . . . some were claiming there was no resurrection, a critical element of the gospel. Belief in a savior who was not resurrected from the dead would have been a vain belief.

If Christ did not rise from the dead, then He was not the one God proved to be His Messiah.

1 Cor 15:13-14 "But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless."

Now what else has 'absolutely no reason' to you?

Explain the 'if' in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB.

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

The condition for being presently saved is IF you are presently holding fast the word. ('Hold fast' is the same Greek word Jesus uses to describe the fourth type of soil in Luke 8:15 NASB that retained the word of God and brought it to fruition).

Calvinism says this holding fast the word in faith is the sign that you truly believe and so you are, therefore, truly saved (as opposed to being a fake believer who shows he's a fake believer because he doesn't continue in the word and bear fruit). Calvinism asserts that the one who truly believes will always believe and so will always be saved. That's why it says perseverance in believing shows one to be truly believing and, therefore, truly saved. But there's always the potential of tomorrow's failure of faith to show that what you thought was true believing today really was not. But let's not go there now.

Non-OSAS doctrine says this holding fast the word is not just the sign one is saved but is the condition one must satisfy for being presently saved. It says that because of the conditional 'if' Paul uses in the passage. Which is the same 'if' of factual certainty that he uses in the Colossians 1:23 NASB verse you cited. The point being, the fact that, both, the Corinthians and the Colossians are in fact satisfying the condition of the 'if' for being saved and for being able to be presented holy before the Lord has no bearing on the fact that the condition of the 'if' still has to be met in order to attain what the satisfied condition secures. Stop satisfying the condition for present salvation and you are no longer presently saved. As long as you are presently trusting in Christ you are satisfying the condition for salvation and are secure in the promise of eternal life.

Freegrace doctrine says.....well, it doesn't say anything other than to make the passage not mean what it says. It casts the passage off by insisting that present believing is not necessary to be presently saved, which completely contradicts the passage. They say there are no 'ifs' for remaining saved once you are saved. It says you can even curse Christ and turn to Islam and you still have the eternal life you received when you first believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The same could be said for OSNAS. Believe in Christ and MAYBE you'll never perish and avoid hell.

Or, from OSAS, believe in Christ, and you'll never perish."

I see you skirt the issue. Does OSAS lead people to Christ or not?

My statement clarifies the issue.

I am not sure of this "OSNAS" thing you speak of. I don't hold to anything like that.

It means "once saved, not always saved". Is that your view or not?

I hold to the fact that Christ gives life to His sheep. And those who have the Son have life.

I'll rephrase the question: can a sheep of Jesus perish?

And one more, can a sheep of Jesus become 'not one of His'?

Have I ever stated that a person is not secure in Christ? Have you ever stated someone can be secure who is not in Christ?

That's not the issue. Eph 1:13,14 is a guarantee of our inheritance, based on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Which is for the day of redemption.

So, another question: can any believer lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace]

It should not be about what sounds better, but what is true and leads to Christ.

The Bible says the Law leads us to Christ.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see you still do not understand non-OSAS doctrine.
Those who believe in Christ are surely saved from hell and will never perish.
If you stop believing, that is when you are no longer saved and will perish.

This is what isn't taught in Scripture: stop believing and stop being saved.

In fact, the Bible teaches that one will never perish from the moment they have believed. John 5:24, 10:28

Get it straight. The believer is the one who has eternal life, not the ex/un-believer (John 5:24 NASB). But you keep insisting those who don't believe have eternal life in complete and utter contradiction to what Jesus said.

I have it straight. I suggest the same for you.

Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they would never perish in John 10:28.

So a question: when an "ex-believer" did believe, were they given eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

Noted.

But your statement is false. The person who presently believes in the gospel he first heard is presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). Believers have not lost their salvation already....that's impossible since they are still trusting God for salvation. They will lose it if they stop believing.

Which text actually says this?

Jesus said recipients of eternal life will never perish. No "if's", no conditons to recipients. They will never perish. John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe satan like to convince people that no matter what they may do/think /say/preach their salvation is OK

Or just the opposite: your salvation is not secure, so you'd better get busy to make sure you keep it. Or legalism, works-salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

If Judas was not saved why is it he was lost.. Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

He was lost because he was never saved. We are all born lost. Which is why Jesus came to this world:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

 

[ezra]

 

[Nathan]

Acts 20
28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.
32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Paul was convinced that wolves would come in and not spare some of the sheep. I would say it is because the hired hands who say they lead the sheep to Christ fold, actually lead them away saying the sheep will be fine and no harm will come to them. When the wolves come in, the hired hands either look the other way, or they believe the sheep needed to be eaten for disciplines sake.

OSAS has not shown that it leads sheep to Christ, keeps sheep in Christs pasture, or protects sheep from wolves who come in to devour them. Therefore, those reading can judge if OSAS is the way of Christ - or the way of destruction.

Jesus was tested in this way Himself. We would be wise to follow His example.

Luke 4
9 And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here,
10 for it is written, "'He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,'
11 and "'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
12 And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Satan still is up to his wicked tricks. "If you really are the children of God, let yourselves do what you like, for it is written you shall never perish".

The wise see that he is a liar and the father of all lies. Nothing he says will be truth, and all he is doing is seeking to devour. Follow Christs example in moments of temptations like these.

 

[reba]

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.