salvation and the loss of it

[Cygnus]

Noted.

But your statement is false. The person who presently believes in the gospel he first heard is presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). Believers have not lost their salvation already....that's impossible since they are still trusting God for salvation. They will lose it if they stop believing.

That would be incorrect. Salvation can't be lost. NOTHING can snatch you out of Jesus' hand.

 

[Cygnus]

Ironic

Colossians 1
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

I trust you notice the "if".

Sure, IF you continue in the faith...your mind won't revert back to being alienated and hostile. This doesn't mean you'll lose salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

That would be incorrect. Salvation can't be lost. NOTHING can snatch you out of Jesus' hand.

Even "no one", which includes all humans, including thyself.

 

[Gregg T]

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.



I guess I'm not sure I have the kind of reason to make what is said above something else besides the Gospel, being saved, and holding fast.

The only thing that has 'absolutely no reason' is why you think I may believe someone has to "continually believe" in order to stay saved. I've never said that have I? Hopefully you were not thinking that, but it does seem you insinuate it.

Paul is pretty clear - reminding the reader of the Gospel he preached, in which they stood(not outside of it), by which they were being saved, if they hold fast to that word preached(the Gospel?).

Maybe your translation doesn't use the word "if"?

My translation(s) use "if", as does the Greek text; which makes clear that the Gospel as preached by Paul keeps them safe. Had they have first believed a gospel in which there was no resurrection, then that belief would have been in vain.

It appears to me that when you observe a text containing the words "if" and 'believe(d)', such as 1 Cor 15:1-2, you assume it teaches one saved can lose that salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Even "no one", which includes all humans, including thyself.

If a true believer "lost" their faith....then it could bee said "deception"" snatched them out of Jesus' hand. BUT, Jesus said nothing could do the snatching.. .Which would include deception.

 

[Gregg T]

Gregg T

I believe it was you and I who both agree that Hebrews was probably written by Paul right? If not, I apologize. Regardless, Hebrews also has that little word that seems to be in conflict.

Hebrews 3:1-6
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house.
For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
(For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)
Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Do you believe someone cannot be apart of Christs 'house' and yet still be in Christ?

Please define what 'apart of Christs house' means to you, then I will answer.

Please do this before quoting any more 'if' statements from the Scriptures:
- Study the 3 uses of that word, and what the Greek language insinuates for each use
- there are other words employed along with 'if' in the Greek text that further define what is actually being said, as opposed to what you think it is saying.

 

[Gregg T]

Explain the 'if' in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB.

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

The condition for being presently saved is IF you are presently holding fast the word. ('Hold fast' is the same Greek word Jesus uses to describe the fourth type of soil in Luke 8:15 NASB that retained the word of God and brought it to fruition).

Calvinism says this holding fast the word in faith is the sign that you truly believe and so you are, therefore, truly saved (as opposed to being a fake believer who shows he's a fake believer because he doesn't continue in the word and bear fruit). Calvinism asserts that the one who truly believes will always believe and so will always be saved. That's why it says perseverance in believing shows one to be truly believing and, therefore, truly saved. But there's always the potential of tomorrow's failure of faith to show that what you thought was true believing today really was not. But let's not go there now.

Non-OSAS doctrine says this holding fast the word is not just the sign one is saved but is the condition one must satisfy for being presently saved. It says that because of the conditional 'if' Paul uses in the passage. Which is the same 'if' of factual certainty that he uses in the Colossians 1:23 NASB verse you cited. The point being, the fact that, both, the Corinthians and the Colossians are in fact satisfying the condition of the 'if' for being saved and for being able to be presented holy before the Lord has no bearing on the fact that the condition of the 'if' still has to be met in order to attain what the satisfied condition secures. Stop satisfying the condition for present salvation and you are no longer presently saved. As long as you are presently trusting in Christ you are satisfying the condition for salvation and are secure in the promise of eternal life.

Freegrace doctrine says.....well, it doesn't say anything other than to make the passage not mean what it says. It casts the passage off by insisting that present believing is not necessary to be presently saved, which completely contradicts the passage. They say there are no 'ifs' for remaining saved once you are saved. It says you can even curse Christ and turn to Islam and you still have the eternal life you received when you first believed.

Regarding 1 Cor 15:1-2 Rather "if" they held fast the gospel as Paul preached, as opposed to another gospel which denied a resurrection. See 1Co 15:14 "But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless. And also we are found to befalse witnesses of God, because we witnessed as to God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if the dead ones are not raised."

The issue is believing in vain, and a faith that is worthless.

But I see why you desire to have those Scripture fit your narrative, a narrative which I believe falls short of the truth.

 

[Nathan]

My translation(s) use "if", as does the Greek text; which makes clear that the Gospel as preached by Paul keeps them safe. Had they have first believed a gospel in which there was no resurrection, then that belief would have been in vain.

It appears to me that when you observe a text containing the words "if" and 'believe(d)', such as 1 Cor 15:1-2, you assume it teaches one saved can lose that salvation.

I was pretty sure that if was in there for a reason.

If only refers to the believers not abandoning the faith that brought them to salvation(Christ) and keeps them there(in Christ). Paul knew that there would be a great deal of persuasion to leave Christ for another 'gospel' which could not save them.

Paul knew that wolves would come in and tear up the sheep that were wondering from the faith. Easy targets. He knew that false prophets would tell people that because they do something, they can leave Christ and still have their sins forgiven.

I'm not sure why someone would come to Christ for their sins to be forgiven, then think that what they did continues to forgive their sins. Or maybe they think Christ is a servant of sin, that they can continue in sin and Christ is ok with it?

 

[Nathan]

Please define what 'apart of Christs house' means to you, then I will answer.

Please do this before quoting any more 'if' statements from the Scriptures:
- Study the 3 uses of that word, and what the Greek language insinuates for each use
- there are other words employed along with 'if' in the Greek text that further define what is actually being said, as opposed to what you think it is saying.

Well, the passages are very clear. You actually have to twist them up in order to make them say something they are not saying. If you read them straight as they are written, they are clear. I love to study though. One thing I have always wondered is where it says a believer can not be apart of Christs house - in anyway - and still be saved. Could you point me to those passages that state salvation is not only in the household of God?

 

[Gregg T]

I was pretty sure that if was in there for a reason.

If only refers to the believers not abandoning the faith that brought them to salvation(Christ) and keeps them there(in Christ). Paul knew that there would be a great deal of persuasion to leave Christ for another 'gospel' which could not save them.

Paul knew that wolves would come in and tear up the sheep that were wondering from the faith. Easy targets. He knew that false prophets would tell people that because they do something, they can leave Christ and still have their sins forgiven.

I'm not sure why someone would come to Christ for their sins to be forgiven, then think that what they did continues to forgive their sins. Or maybe they think Christ is a servant of sin, that they can continue in sin and Christ is ok with it?

Paul knew if they believed another gospel that wasn't what he preached, that kind of faith (Christ with no Resurrection) would have never saved them. Remaining saved is not the issue, and is not even touched upon.

The text does not mention leaving Christ, but you infer its there and speak of it as a matter of fact. You still misunderstand the issue.

 

[Gregg T]

Well, the passages are very clear. You actually have to twist them up in order to make them say something they are not saying. If you read them straight as they are written, they are clear. I love to study though. One thing I have always wondered is where it says a believer can not be apart of Christs house - in anyway - and still be saved. Could you point me to those passages that state salvation is not only in the household of God?

Define 'household of God' first, and you still have not communicated to me what you mean by 'apart of Christs house' that I asked for in post #446.

Also, show me where I said 'salvation is not only in the household of God'.

You are not communicating well; and it is unhelpful to insuate I said something that I did not.

 

[Nathan]

Define 'household of God' first, and you still have not communicated to me what you mean by 'apart of Christs house' that I asked for in post #446.

Also, show me where I said 'salvation is not only in the household of God'.

You are not communicating well; and it is unhelpful to insuate I said something that I did not.

I never insinuated you did not believe salvation is not only in the household of God. I was putting forth that I do not know where it wouldn't be, so if you knew of something contrary to it, I would be glad to study it. That was what I was asking.

Being apart of a household means you are related - by birth or adoption - of who ever household you are. It's really not any more complicated than that.

Paul said very specifically that a person was apart of the house if they hold fast their confidence and boasting till the end.

He goes on to reiterate, and clairify, what this means -

Hebrews 3
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Paul is clear. He is contrasting those who continue to believe with those who fall away. He is being clear that sharing in Christ is not a onetime event, but a life lived in faith - an eternal life.

You leave that faith through unbelief and you have no share in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

The text does not mention leaving Christ, but you infer its there and speak of it as a matter of fact. You still misunderstand the issue.

There is something to be said about not reading into a passage, but just letting it speak for itself. It may not say the words "you will loose salvation", but that is based on the fact Paul assumed the reader knew that it's only in Christ we have salvation.

So Paul is either saying they can leave the faith and remain in Christ, or he is saying they cannot.

Can a person leave the faith and remain in Christ?

 

[Cygnus]

Can a person leave the faith and remain in Christ?

Yes

 

[Nathan]

Sure, IF you continue in the faith...your mind won't revert back to being alienated and hostile. This doesn't mean you'll lose salvation.

Do you believe a person can be alienated and hostile toward God in Christ?

 

[Nathan]

Yes

How?

Is that leading people to Christ and stay in Him?

 

[reba]

If a true believer "lost" their faith....then it could bee said "deception"" snatched them out of Jesus' hand. BUT, Jesus said nothing could do the snatching.. .Which would include deception.

That is not what i read in Scripture. The translation you use may read differently then mine, which translation do you use?
i most always use KJ

 

[MarkT]

That would be incorrect. Salvation can't be lost. NOTHING can snatch you out of Jesus' hand.

That would be like Noah, who was instructed to build an ark, saying the instruction is enough to save me and my family. I don't need to build an ark. Let's say Christ is the ark, and Jesus is saying come into the ark and you will be saved. Some hear and they follow his instruction. They are his sheep. Some hear and they forget. Some say the ark will save them, but they will not enter. Some can't be instructed at all. And many are just playing with words.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe a person can be alienated and hostile toward God in Christ?

Yes. Fellowship might be harmed....but not salvational position.

 

[Cygnus]

How?

Is that leading people to Christ and stay in Him?

You sound legalistic.