salvation and the loss of it

[reba]

so it does not matter to you ? interesting

 

[reba]

Jesus warning folks of something that means nothing ? Seems kinda odd

 

[ezra]

all this osas not osas is based on what someone has read in scripture and interpreted .. our salvation is secure in Christ ..this security was never made to be compromised.. But we all do at times paul wrote Romans 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord..


note in Romans 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

this discussion can go back and forth another 20 pages and it will never be solved . those who do not believe in osas at what point are we lost again? for those who believe in osas is it a license to live how we want do what we want say hat we want and still make it to heaven? every body will have a opinion and basically that is what we are dealing with

 

[Jethro Bodine]

this discussion can go back and forth another 20 pages and it will never be solved .

It's solved.
All one has to do is honestly read the scriptures.
Arrogant, self-willed people through the centuries are the ones who have perpetuated this so-called unsolvable question. It's not unsolvable. It's just a matter of knowing and honestly receiving what the scriptures plainly say.God knows who has been purposely ignoring the plain words of scripture and those who are honestly mislead by what these people in history have been teaching. The Day of Judgment is coming. I think most people are just honestly mislead into thinking OSAS is truth, or that there is no answer to the question. But then there are those who know the truth but have chosen to ignore it.

those who do not believe in osas at what point are we lost again?

You are lost when you willingly no longer believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin, because there is no sacrifice available that can cover the sin of rejecting the only sacrifice for sin that exists. You can do everything else and Christ's sacrifice can and will cover it. But rejecting the sacrifice itself has no sacrifice outside of itself to cover that sin. The only thing you have to look forward to is the coming wrath of God at the Judgment. No sacrifice remains for the person who willingly abandons the only sacrifice for sin there is. This is plainly spelled out in scripture but evil people in the church through the centuries doing the devil's work have created such doubt on the words of God that now almost everyone can't see the plain words of scripture. Woe to the people who have willingly and knowingly been doing this in the history of the church. They have a really bad Day coming.

 

[Nathan]

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Show me, or at least explain, how someone who is in Christ can be alienated from God and hostile toward Him.

That's called flat out contradiction. We were placed in Christ so we would not be alienated or hostile toward God.

 

[Cygnus]

Show me, or at least explain, how someone who is in Christ can be alienated from God and hostile toward Him.

That's called flat out contradiction. We were placed in Christ so we would not be alienated or hostile toward God.

What do you say we back the truck up.....you made a claim. Then you want me to argue against your claim with out you already backing it up?

 

[Nathan]

Deceivers lead believers away from the Lord.

Yep. Not only that, they say it's 'ok' to walk away because it's not a matter of eternal security.

So in other words, not only do they lead them away, they entice them to stay away by making them feel secure in something they said, did, or believed.

 

[Nathan]

What do you say we back the truck up.....you made a claim. Then you want me to argue against your claim with out you already backing it up?

Huh? I said it's impossible to be alienated and hostile toward God when you are in Christ. You disagree, but never stated how it is possible. I'm asking you to explain how a person can be alienated and hostile toward God while in Christ.

Romans 5:10 (ESV)
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

We are reconciled to God in Christ. So it would be utter contradiction to say we can be alienated and hostile toward Him in His Son.

 

[ezra]

It's solved.
All one has to do is honestly read the scriptures.
Arrogant, self-willed people through the centuries are the ones who have perpetuated this so-called unsolvable question. It's not unsolvable. It's just a matter of knowing and honestly receiving what the scriptures plainly say.God knows who has been purposely ignoring the plain words of scripture and those who are honestly mislead by what these people in history have been teaching. The Day of Judgment is coming. I think most people are just honestly mislead into thinking OSAS is truth, or that there is no answer to the question. But then there are those who know the truth but have chosen to ignore it.


You are lost when you willingly no longer believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin, because there is no sacrifice available that can cover the sin of rejecting the only sacrifice for sin that exists. You can do everything else and Christ's sacrifice can and will cover it. But rejecting the sacrifice itself has no sacrifice outside of itself to cover that sin. The only thing you have to look forward to is the coming wrath of God at the Judgment. No sacrifice remains for the person who willingly abandons the only sacrifice for sin there is. This is plainly spelled out in scripture but evil people in the church through the centuries doing the devil's work have created such doubt on the words of God that now almost everyone can't see the plain words of scripture. Woe to the people who have willingly and knowingly been doing this in the history of the church. They have a really bad Day coming.

you are lost when you willingly no longer believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin

so as long as i believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin . i am secure in my salvation even if i no longer live it....? i am well aware of what scripture you are referring to.. my point is you believe the way you because of how you felt lead to interrupt . i can show you some very dedicated Christians who believe in osas . you make some valid points

Arrogant, self-willed people through the centuries are the ones who have perpetuated this so-called unsolvable question. It's not unsolvable.

i disagree on the Arrogant, self-willed people .i certainly do not consider men like Adrian Rogers Charles Stanley James Merritt Arrogant, self-willed people . i may not agree %100 with them but they are great ministers you have it solved for you and that is ok others have it solved but believe in osas my mothers parents was southern baptist Dont recall a lot about them talking about the Bible as i got older salvation was last thing i was interested in....i lean toward osas but am not sold out on it . i see it different than most

 

[markathome]

Curious as to how this OSAS discussion would have been different from the time period of Claudius to Nero, to those believing in Revelation 13:18?

 

[Jim Parker]

You are lost when you willingly no longer believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin, because there is no sacrifice available that can cover the sin of rejecting the only sacrifice for sin that exists.

I'd say you (generic "you") were lost when you quit acting like you were a disciple of Christ and went back to acting like a slave to sin to gratify the desires of the flesh.
Jesus isn't going to judge us on our theology and IMO, we spend far to much time splitting theological hairs.
He's going to judge us based on the evidence of our works.

Jesus HIMSELF said;
"… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

Were you saved by grace through faith?
"Faith is only real when there is obedience, never without it, and faith only becomes faith in the act of obedience."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The cost of Discipleship

So, once again, IMO, all the argument about OSAS (which I believe is bunk) misses the point and the point is: Am I being faithful to do the will of my LORD? When He comes again, will He find me being a faithful servant or will I be wasting my time arguing about OSAS like some modern day scribe arguing with a modern day pharisee?

But that's just me.


iakov the fool

 

[reba]

Some of what has opened my eyes is the lack of the whole of Scripture discounting what Jesus has said. (see the posts around #480 that general area.. ) once again fitting the Scripture into ones dogma when IMO we should fit our dogma into Scripture ..

 

[ezra]

Some of what has opened my eyes is the lack of the whole of Scripture discounting what Jesus has said. (see the posts around #480 that general area.. ) once again fitting the Scripture into ones dogma when IMO we should fit our dogma into Scripture ..

o but dont ya know it is no longer thus saith the word of God but thus saith imo . i could write a few chapters on what i have experienced with thus saith imo. one example i had a older man approach me and also a woman ask where i found foot washing in the Bible .. so i open the book of john up and read it .

 

[ezra]

So, once again, IMO, all the argument about OSAS (which I believe is bunk) misses the point and the point is: Am I being faithful to do the will of my LORD? When He comes again, will He find me being a faithful servant or will I be wasting my time arguing about OSAS like some modern day scribe arguing with a modern day pharisee?

i will agree with that are we working out our own salvation with fear and trembling

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue is believing in vain, and a faith that is worthless.

No, that's not the issue we're discussing here. Christ really being raised from the dead does not change the fact that they are saved by the gospel because they are holding onto the gospel, not saved simply because the gospel is true. That's the issue you're not addressing.

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The 'if' is not in regard to 'if' the gospel is true. The 'if' is in regard to their present believing. They are presently saved 'if' they are presently believing (which they are). But you are making it out to be they are saved 'if' the gospel is true (which it is).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Surely, how can someone say they haven’t jumped out of Jesus’ hand if they break the speed limit?

There's a BIG difference between sinning out of weakness, even foolishness, all the while clinging to Christ for salvation, and sinning because you don't want or care about or believe in the gospel anymore. This has been explained to you several times. Do you not see the difference? The latter example of 'sinning'--sinning as the result of unbelief--is what will cause one to no longer be protected by the sacrifice of Christ and, therefore, subject to the wrath of God reserved for His enemies on the last day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

so as long as i believe in Christ's sacrifice for the remission of sin . i am secure in my salvation even if i no longer live it....?

If the 'no longer live it' is the result of willful unbelief then that person is NOT secure in salvation.
When the willful disobedience is the result of unbelief, not just weakness, or stupidity, or ignorance, or arrogance, that is when you forfeit the protection of Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sin.

i can show you some very dedicated Christians who believe in osas .

I know they exist. Calvinist OSAS believers, that is. I respect them. It's Freegrace OSAS that I have absolutely zero respect for. I don't respect any argument that says a believer can spit in God's face, curse Christ, and worship Allah and they still have Christ's eternal life. That's so ludicrous I'm amazed the church has to deal with this kind of thing creeping in to the church. Simply amazing, but I know that's just how far we have fallen.

i disagree on the Arrogant, self-willed people .i certainly do not consider men like Adrian Rogers Charles Stanley James Merritt Arrogant, self-willed people .

I do not consider them that either.
Genuinely deceived is what I consider them.
This doctrine of OSAS is incredibly insidious. It has great power of deception even over learned and highly respected, godly leaders. I say probably most OSAS adherants (Calvinist OSAS) are simply the innocent victims of those who purposely have brought OSAS doctrines into the church when they knew it to not be true. And some Freegrace OSAS folk are probably just victims of deceit too and don't realize it. But I think more of them know the truth about it but have chosen to go with it anyway. No so with Calvinist OSAS.

i lean toward osas but am not sold out on it .

And I think that's a good and godly and mature attitude to have about it. I think we all learn the most when we have this stance. Taking a stand is fine. It's when we refuse to acknowledge competing arguments that we stop learning. I see this very often on the OSAS side. It's good to know you are not one of those. I respect your Calvinist OSAS leanings for that reason.

 

[ezra]

I respect your Calvinist OSAS leanings for that reason.

lol i suggest you think again i am NOT Calvinist learned and by far am i a calvinist' my belief i got from studying the scriptures .not from a church statement of faith. might i add the listed ministers are by far deceived that is not a fair statement . no more than for them to say you are deceived

 

[Jethro Bodine]

lol i suggest you think again i am NOT Calvinist learned

I said 'leanings', not 'learnings', lol.

my belief i got from studying the scriptures .not from a church statement of faith.

Probably a combination of both.
And as far as formulating beliefs 'from studying the scriptures', what I'm seeing in the hardcore OSAS argument is a failure to consider the whole counsel of the Word, even though many people apparently know the whole counsel of the Word. Or I see a lesser, more vague passage being given precedence over and above the clear passages of scripture. So 'learning' doesn't seem to be the core of the problem for people who study. Though it's certainly true that in some cases people, unlike yourself, believe in OSAS simply because they grew up in a church that did. You feed them the basic scriptures upon which the belief is based and off they go into a life long dogmatic 'I won't listen to anything else' defense of OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Deceivers lead believers away from the Lord."

and what difference does that make?

No difference regarding one's guaranteed salvation.

But a huge difference in one's spiritual status. By being led away from the Lord, there will be no spiritual growth, no fruit production, no blessings, no reward in eternity.

Oh, and lest we forget from Heb 10:
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And Heb 12:
11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

God's discipline is not a little slap on the hand. It's painful.

Consider just one of the ways God disciplines His rebellious children:
1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
1 Tim 1:20 - Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.