Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

I would like to see where Scriptures point out that ANYONE must obey the Law 100% of the time to be granted eternal life from a merciful God!!!

What a presumption. It is based upon human ideas of justice.

Quite frankly, it appears that people do not understand what the concept of "free merciful gift" means... God has chosen to grant eternal salvation to people - even if they don't fulfill the Law "all the time".

Regards

Fran-----]I would like to see where Scriptures point out that ANYONE must obey the Law 100% of the time to be granted eternal life from a merciful God!!!

Grubal-----Galatians 2:21 says, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Righteousness does not come by the law. That's the idea. That's why Christ had to come. There's no human that could have "ever" followed the law 100% and received eternal life. Christ, "is" the way as He said...

 

[glorydaz]

You are missing the entire point - that God grants eternal life to ANYONE - ANYONE who He desires to give it. Jew or Gentile. It is NOT dependent upon perfect practicing of the Law - the text never states that.

That includes pagans. THEY have a law, written in their hearts that is SHOWN FORTH by their good deeds of love. FORGET about "theoretically following the Law". Ridiculous. The Spirit's work is SHOWN FORTH, not awaiting in a potential that no one can do! Thus, God grants them eternal life FREELY, as a gift. Not because He is obligated.

Since all men are "under the power of sin", no one can obligate God to grant eternal life. We cannot come before God and say "where is my wages", or "I believe, so now you owe me heaven, God (sound familiar...?) Thus, EVERYONE DEPENDS upon God's gift of salvation. Jew first and then Gentile.

The point, as Romans 3:1's rhetorical question makes clear, is that the Jews are not in a favored position over the Gentiles when it comes to what God grants as a gift. Paul has just torn down the idea that the Jews alone have heaven available to them. Since God writes His Law on the hearts of even pagans (and they OBEY HIM, as shown forth!), God has seen fit to grant the reward of eternal life to even pagans (who are called "spiritual Jews"). AS A FREE GIFT

Paul does NOT say that "no one can obey the Law". EVER! That is doing MAJOR injustice to the text AND the teachings of Paul. HE HIMSELF stated elsewhere that he had perfectly followed the Law! Here, he is saying that God is not a respecter of people. Even Gentiles, who do not have the written Law in stone, CAN obey the law (because of God's gift of grace). And such as these are granted eternal life, based upon God's merciful desires, not because God is looking for a 100% fulfillment of the Law!!!

Regards

Joe, my friend, you're getting fired up over something that isn't even there. The question isn't whether God grants eternal life to whoever He wants. The question is does He grant eternal life based on faith or on our keeping the law (whether the moral law written in our conscience or the Mosaic law)? Does He grant eternal life based on what Jesus Christ has done or on how we live our lives? That is the question....not all this other stuff that you bring up. While some may keep the whole law, they still sin and Paul readily admits that. If you fail on even one point...to perfectly keep the law...you fail. If the ship sinks once, it's sunk.

Our salvation does not rest on our keeping the law...thank God, because no one can keep it perfectly. That is Paul's point in Romans. Man's need for a Saviour.

I don't know how much clearer Paul can make the point than he does here.......

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[glorydaz]

Fran-----]I would like to see where Scriptures point out that ANYONE must obey the Law 100% of the time to be granted eternal life from a merciful God!!!

Grubal-----Galatians 2:21 says, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Righteousness does not come by the law. That's the idea. That's why Christ had to come. There's no human that could have "ever" followed the law 100% and received eternal life. Christ, "is" the way as He said...

AMEN and AMEN.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Salvation only by Grace !

Salvation by Faith is not even a biblical phrase, it has been contrived by men. The bible teaches Salvation by Grace or one being saved by Grace, which is the same as being saved by grace through Faith.

Eph 2:5,8

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Acts 15:11

But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Faith is part of the Grace that saves !

So in Truth,Salvation is by Grace alone ! And that translates into Election alone, because by Grace means the Election of Grace Rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Now who cannot see that Paul relates :according to the election of grace" in vs 5 with "and if by grace" in vs 6 ?

This means they are the same. So there cannot be Salvation by Grace apart from Election !

With all due respect, the election you speak of was not the idea that God choose a few people before the foundation of the world, and damned the rest to Hell. The "elect" would be those, Jews/Gentiles who receive Christ as their Lord and Savior, through the Grace of God, by faith...The Jews were the chosen, we (Jews/Gentiles) are the elect...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gb

With all due respect, the election you speak of was not the idea that God choose a few people before the foundation of the world, and damned the rest to Hell

With all due respect, yes it is..

The Jews were the chosen

No they were not, some of them was, but thats no different from the gentiles, some of them are also.

 

[Drew]

I suggest you need some spiritual understanding on this matter. The Lord is the only one who can make you see, because obviously no man will be able to do it.

Do you mean the kind of understanding where you read this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

...and make it read like this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards, but not eternal life since eternal life is given on the basis of something else.

????

Please - you continue to evade the clear import of the Pauline text.

Paul says what he says - eternal life is given to those who "persist in doing good".

 

[Drew]

There is a very interesting implied argument being put forward here.

In Romans 2, if not elsewhere, there are clear statements connecting how we actually live to the awarding of eternal life.

This presents a big challenge to those who believe that God does not look at our good works when awarding eternal life.

So how do some people deal with this? They argue that those statements represent a hypothetical state of affairs - that Paul is telling us how we would be saved if we could be saved by good works. But, so the argument goes, Paul is about to tell us that this route to salvation is impossible and that God has provided another way.

Nice try.

The problem, of course, is that no rational person will tell us what only might be true, unless they clearly qualify their statements to this effect.

Does Paul ever say "What I am about to tell you in Romans 2 is an expression of how salvation might be attained by works if that were possible"?

No, he does not.

This is the big scandal - there is no actual argument as to why we should treat the Romans 2 material as "hypothetical".

Imagine if a mother told her child "If you eat your spinach, you can watch your favourite TV show". If the mother knows that there is no spinach in the house, and therefore that the child cannot fulfill the condition, we would suggest she is either deliberately misleading the child or otherwise mean-spirited.

And yet this is exaclty what you guys are effectively saying when you transform Romans 2 into a statement of what is only hypothetically possible.

 

[Drew]

Does He grant eternal life based on what Jesus Christ has done or on how we live our lives?

This is a false choice, according to Paul.

And this is one reason why these debates are so tricky. When one poses false choices, one illicitly begs the very question at issue.

I continue to assert that Paul's basic argument is this:

1. The person who, in the present, and by faith alone, accepts Jesus as Lord, thereby embracing Jesus' victory on the cross, is given the Holy Spirit;

2. That Holy Spirit then generates all sorts of good works;

3. At the end, the "test" for getting eternal life is the presence of these works.

So, you see, to the extent that I am correct, you are basically asking an improper question.

 

[Sinthesis]

Some times it it a real good thing to remember the Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse.

About any thing we post here can be made to read differently when not read in the whole.


Scriptures were not written see

Reba nailed it.

The topic of Romans 2 is:
Who really are the people of God?
What are the marks of the people of God? Circumcision? Adherence to the Mosaic Law? Heredity? Works? Love?

Rom 2:11 - For there is no respect of persons with God.​

Romans 2:6-7 presupposes a 'faith in God' among groups claiming status as "God's People". While the true nature of the heart may be known and judged only by God, Paul explains how for us behavior is a more reliable indicator of who is following God than whether one is Jew or Gentile. How are people who claim faith in God actually divided?

them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality

vs.​

them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness

Paul is contrasting two paths for both groups. Whether their faith is real and indicative of one operating under grace, or if their faith is false and indicative of one operating according to their own desires, the truth as to whether or not they are following God can better be determined by their behavior rather than their status as Jew or Gentile. Thus works are indicative of salvation among professed followers of God, but they are NOT the basis for it. Disagree?

1Cr 3:10 - According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

Here we have a believer whose works were all in vain; yet still saved!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

This is a false choice, according to Paul.

And this is one reason why these debates are so tricky. When one poses false choices, one illicitly begs the very question at issue.

I continue to assert that Paul's basic argument is this:

1. The person who, in the present, and by faith alone, accepts Jesus as Lord, thereby embracing Jesus' victory on the cross, is given the Holy Spirit;

2. That Holy Spirit then generates all sorts of good works;

3. At the end, the "test" for getting eternal life is the presence of these works.

So, you see, to the extent that I am correct, you are basically asking an improper question.

Drew says----- At the end, the "test" for getting eternal life is the presence of these works.

Grubal-----There is no such (litmus) test for eternal life. It's simply, is your name written in the "Book of Life" and have you been covered by the blood of Christ at the cross through your faith ?

 

[glorydaz]

Thus works are indicative of salvation among professed followers of God, but they are NOT the basis for it. Disagree?

Agree.

1Cr 3:10 - According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

Here we have a believer whose works were all in vain; yet still saved!

And again I agree. This portion of scripture is not intended for "ministers only". In fact, it's in total accord with what Paul states in Romans....actually in everything he writes. Scripture always agrees with itself.

 

[glorydaz]

There is a very interesting implied argument being put forward here.

In Romans 2, if not elsewhere, there are clear statements connecting how we actually live to the awarding of eternal life.

This presents a big challenge to those who believe that God does not look at our good works when awarding eternal life.

So how do some people deal with this? They argue that those statements represent a hypothetical state of affairs - that Paul is telling us how we would be saved if we could be saved by good works. But, so the argument goes, Paul is about to tell us that this route to salvation is impossible and that God has provided another way.

Nice try.

The problem, of course, is that no rational person will tell us what only might be true, unless they clearly qualify their statements to this effect.

Does Paul ever say "What I am about to tell you in Romans 2 is an expression of how salvation might be attained by works if that were possible"?

No, he does not.

This is the big scandal - there is no actual argument as to why we should treat the Romans 2 material as "hypothetical".

Imagine if a mother told her child "If you eat your spinach, you can watch your favourite TV show". If the mother knows that there is no spinach in the house, and therefore that the child cannot fulfill the condition, we would suggest she is either deliberately misleading the child or otherwise mean-spirited.

And yet this is exaclty what you guys are effectively saying when you transform Romans 2 into a statement of what is only hypothetically possible.

Of course, had you read the quote from Ezekiel, you'd have seen the exact same thing.

In fact, I think it may be a prophecy of what Paul says right here in Romans. "When I shall say to the righteous that he shall surely live..." Since Paul doesn't state specifically in your Romans 2 verse that these people are trusting in their own righteousness or not, we're left with all this speculation. Considering he had just warned of God's wrath, I believe they are and so this very verse in Ezekiel is what we read in Romans. Sin is the rub...it alway has been, and it always will be.

"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

gb



With all due respect, yes it is..



No they were not, some of them was, but thats no different from the gentiles, some of them are also.

The Israelite's were "ALL" considered the chosen people. And if you disagree, than I ask you, who was left out ??

 

[glorydaz]

Drew says----- At the end, the "test" for getting eternal life is the presence of these works.

Grubal-----There is no such (litmus) test for eternal life. It's simply, is your name written in the "Book of Life" and have you been covered by the blood of Christ at the cross through your faith ?

I just love that simple faith...even a child or the simplest of men can understand it.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, how simple. I like the way the Bible says, "The word is nigh thee," It's so near and so simple, and yet that simple message is made so complicated by "would be" scholars who wish to hide the message beneath a bunch of misinterpretation and illogical thought processes...Combined with "picking" a verse or two out of context and building a false doctrine out of it. It's a simple message that Paul admonished the churches to keep "pure." Legalism and those who wish to be enslaved by law don't see the "Simplicity" of the Gospel...Grace+faith+nothing!!!

LOL Pretty much what I wanted to say but didn't have the guts. ;)

 

[Free]

LOL Pretty much what I wanted to say but didn't have the guts. ;)

And some things are best left unsaid as the same be said about your position. But that does nothing to advance good conversation or a good understanding of Scripture.

Referring to others' positions as being legalistic or one's own position as "even a child or the simplest of men can understand it," is not only condescending, they are caricatures which makes them much easier to dismiss. Doing proper theology and gaining a deeper understanding of Scripture is hardly ever as easy as most make it out to be.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Salvation only by Grace !

Salvation by Faith is not even a biblical phrase, it has been contrived by men. The bible teaches Salvation by Grace or one being saved by Grace, which is the same as being saved by grace through Faith.

Eph 2:5,8

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Acts 15:11

But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Faith is part of the Grace that saves !

So in Truth,Salvation is by Grace alone ! And that translates into Election alone, because by Grace means the Election of Grace Rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Now who cannot see that Paul relates :according to the election of grace" in vs 5 with "and if by grace" in vs 6 ?

This means they are the same. So there cannot be Salvation by Grace apart from Election !

At the end of the day, you are correct. We are saved by grace alone...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Fran-----]I would like to see where Scriptures point out that ANYONE must obey the Law 100% of the time to be granted eternal life from a merciful God!!!

Grubal-----Galatians 2:21 says, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Righteousness does not come by the law. That's the idea. That's why Christ had to come. There's no human that could have "ever" followed the law 100% and received eternal life. Christ, "is" the way as He said...

Grubal, Galatians does not answer my question. No one is saying that righteousness comes from the law. Because someone follows the Law does not mean that they THINK they are being saved by that. One can obey the Law with humble heart, trusting that God is righteous and will reward him, but not taking it for granted or presuming it (like some of the "I believe, so God owes me" types).

Have you not read the Psalms? Read Psalm 119. You will find out how the truly righteous live and fulfill the Law. Such a one does not trust in his own ability.

Now, again, please point out where the Scriptures say that one must follow the Law 100% of the time to be saved...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Joe, my friend, you're getting fired up over something that isn't even there. The question isn't whether God grants eternal life to whoever He wants. The question is does He grant eternal life based on faith or on our keeping the law (whether the moral law written in our conscience or the Mosaic law)?

You are again falling into the trap of "false dichotomy" First of all, God grants eternal life to whomever HE desires. According to Sacred Scriptures, that includes BOTH the person of faith and good deeds. One without the other is without the promise God has granted to those who obey Him in loving faith. There is no need to separate faith from works, and frankly, the Bible very clearly points out the necessity of both.

No one here is stating that one's keeping of the Mosaic Law is salvific, so this is a non-sequitar. Salvation is a gift, so keeping the Law cannot earn salvation. Not because no one can keep the Law, but because salvation is simply a gift! That's it. Simple as that. No one can obligate God. Even those who keep the Law. And those who truly keep the spirit of the Law do not obligate God.

Does He grant eternal life based on what Jesus Christ has done or on how we live our lives? That is the question....not all this other stuff that you bring up. While some may keep the whole law, they still sin and Paul readily admits that. If you fail on even one point...to perfectly keep the law...you fail. If the ship sinks once, it's sunk.

A false analogy. We have a forgiving God, so God can "refloat the boat"... NOWHERE does the Bible state that one must be perfect in fulfilling the Law to rely upon God to grant His mercy. This is an invention that does great injustice to the text to support a false theology. If one relies on God's mercy, why on earth would one depend on perfectly fulfilling the Law??? As such, you miss the point on what "I am a merciful God" means...

Our salvation does not rest on our keeping the law..

Never said it did. NO ONE HERE said it does...

It rests upon God's mercy. I made that clear in my last post that you appear to think is meaningless...

thank God, because no one can keep it perfectly.

Nor is one expected to. :p

Please cite me one Scripture citation that God requires that man perfectly fulfill the Law! Why the false statements here? They lead to false conclusions. God does not require that man perfectly fulfill the Law if He has chosen to save that man.

That is Paul's point in Romans. Man's need for a Saviour.

Man needs a savior, but his point has nothing to do with perfection... Romans 2 has pagans entering eternal life. WHO thinks that pagans are perfectly fulfilling the Law????????? :biglol

Where does Paul mention perfection as a requirement? But somehow, that's what you get from Romans 2?

I don't know how much clearer Paul can make the point than he does here.......

It's pretty clear, but you aren't getting it. I am sorry, but you are captive to a false theology that is not found in the verses in question. Nor can you provide any to back it up. It is simply the "game plan" that you accept without question...

Paul is very clearly stating that Gentiles are entering eternal life based upon what they do - being righteous in God's eyes for their obedience, while some Jews are not. Why? NOT because the Gentiles achieve perfection! God has granted mercy to those who obey Him and the Law written on their hearts. NOTE CAREFULLY. WHO is writing that law? God. YES, we need a savior, since NO ONE can obey the Law WITHOUT God. God even saves pagans, if it is His will. However, WITH God's grace, pagans have entered the Kingdom while Jews with the written code are not.

THAT is perfectly clear...

Regards

 

[Mike]

Galatians 1
"6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

This book has always amazed me. Paul addresses the church in Galatia with such exhausted frustration, because he saw how they were grinding God's offer of Salvation through faith in His Son. They wanted so much to add to Christ's sacrifice on the cross!

This reminds me of a prisoner who's been set free, yet they choose to stay in their own self-made prison. They lock the door from freedom and spend all day/all night by themselves in torcher chamber trying mightily to pay that debt that had already been paid, because they cannot bring themselves to put all their own efforts aside and accept what He has done. Would that we could all release ourselves from this pursuit of our own merit, and simply thank God that we have nothing but the faith He has Placed in our hearts. I believe Paul would be astonished today that the whole of God's Word would be sidetracked so profoundly by a misunderstanding of a line or two.