Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Free]

Is this even about the law? I thought it was about good works...

Repeat....

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Repeat....

Drew was talking about Roman 2:13 that deals with the law...

 

[Drew]

Is this even about the law? I thought it was about good works...

I agree that this statement is not about the Law of Moses. Again, shamelessly following Wright, I believe that Paul is referring to the "heart" of the law - something along the lines of Jesus' summary of the Law in Matthew 22.

But, as I suspect you know, I am attempting to "force" people to deal with this text and its clear implication that "obedience" of some kind - even if not to the Law of Moses - is the basis for final justification.

It seems to me that some posters are effectively saying "Paul can't really mean this, since we know he believes in justification by faith".

Well, then, why did he write it?

 

[Free]

Drew was talking about Roman 2:13 that deals with the law...

Ah, yes, right.

I would add that Paul was saying that, to those who "could" obey the law 100% they, then would be considered righteous. However, no man "can" 100% obey the law except if Christ's righteousness is placed on this same man. Which is what happens after salvation has occurred...

Well, your use of "salvation" is perhaps a bit misleading. As I have stated, it is spoken of in the NT as a past event, present process, and future event. So, if Christ's righteousness is then placed on one after salvation, then they indeed can obey "the law" (whatever that is referring to) 100%. It follows then that obeying "the law" leads to that final salvation event. The opposite of that, which Paul states, is that by not doing good works, one will not be saved.

 

[glorydaz]

The question is not "what else did Paul say"?

The question is what is Paul trying to tell us when he penned these particular words:

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You are evading a challenge which I suggest you cannot take on, and maintain your position.

Its true that Paul wrote lots of other things. But he wrote this statement as well!!!

So what does he mean by it glorydaz?

Its a simple, clear question. So please answer it. I am not asking you what else he wrote, I am asking you what this particular statement means.

I thought I'd answered it quite clearly by giving you supporting scripture, which is what we're supposed to do.

Now if I were a carnal man, I would say it means we can't just hear the law, we must follow the law. That would put me in the camp of people who would think I had to work for my own salvation. It wouldn't take me long to figure out I couldn't always be a doer of the law, so I'd give up and be hopelessly lost. Heck, I'd probably even give up on this religion stuff.

But, since I'm spiritual, and not carnal, I understand that on my own I cannot possibly obey the law. Fortunately, Paul does not leave us helpless to wonder how this can be accomplished. He makes it clear in the verses I posted that we must take on the righteousness of Christ by faith because He, alone, can be a successful "doer" of the law.

"Those who obey the law will be declared righteous." That leaves but ONE, Drew. So, Jesus is declared righteous and then His righteousness is imputed to us. I have to say that when you insist on putting up one verse to the exclusion of others, you hinder the Gospel message. If I were an unbeliever, I would be totally discouraged by your posts. You are not giving the whole Truth, and what you're implying by what you do post is robbing the Gospel of it's power and hindering the message of salvation to those who may be reading what you write.

 

[reba]

Some times it it a real good thing to remember the Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse.

About any thing we post here can be made to read differently when not read in the whole.


Scriptures were not written see

 

[Drew]

I would add that Paul was saying that, to those who "could" obey the law 100% they, then would be considered righteous. However, no man "can" 100% obey the law except if Christ's righteousness is placed on this same man. Which is what happens after salvation has occurred...

GM, do you see what you are doing? You are adding words that are not there!

Where does Paul say anything here about not being able to do "the law"?

You, like glorydaz, are effectively saying that Paul is writing something he knows to be false. But you are not coming out and saying this explicitly. Look - its one thing to say that Paul is speaking "hypothetically" here. But you need evidence for such a claim. Pointing to other texts that talk about 'salvation by faith' do not really answer the mail since the question remains:

If Paul does not believe that people are actually saved by "obedience" to the "law", why does he clearly say some will be?

Its a really simple question, GM. Do you go around saying things that are only hypothetically true.

Imagine if I said "I will be playing professional baseball next year for the NY Yankees". Now, I am a 53 year old man with arms like twigs and I run like a girl. So its clearly impossible that my statement is true.

But using your reasoning, I could say "Well, I could play professional baseball if I wasn't so old, my arms weren't like twigs, and I didn't run like a girl". Well, if that's what I wanted to have said, I would have said that. I would not have said "I will be playing professional baseball next year for the NY Yankees", knowing that this was impossible.

You have Paul doing essentially the same thing - telling us that people will be justified by obeying the law, while at the same believing that this is impossible.

That makes no sense. Nowhere has Paul qualified his statement as only hypothetical.

 

[glorydaz]

Ah, yes, right.


Well, your use of "salvation" is perhaps a bit misleading. As I have stated, it is spoken of in the NT as a past event, present process, and future event. So, if Christ's righteousness is then placed on one after salvation, then they indeed can obey "the law" (whatever that is referring to) 100%. It follows then that obeying "the law" leads to that final salvation event. The opposite of that, which Paul states, is that by not doing good works, one will not be saved.

There is only one salvation that refers to obtaining eternal life....the first one, where we are justified and adopted as sons.

The present salvation is sanctification where we are being conformed into the image of the Son, and being freed from the power of sin. We have confidence as sons of God that we will not lose our eternal salvation.

The future salvation is being saved from the wrath to come and the redemption of our bodies (glorification).

At no point, until we're glorified will we be able to obey the law enough to earn our salvation, for to fail in one point is to fail in all. This is exactly by we require Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

 

[glorydaz]

If Paul does not believe that people are actually saved by "obedience" to the "law", why does he clearly say some will be?

He does not say "some will be". Where does he say that?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

GM, do you see what you are doing? You are adding words that are not there!

Where does Paul say anything here about not being able to do "the law"?

You, like glorydaz, are effectively saying that Paul is writing something he knows to be false. But you are not coming out and saying this explicitly. Look - its one thing to say that Paul is speaking "hypothetically" here. But you need evidence for such a claim. Pointing to other texts that talk about 'salvation by faith' do not really answer the mail since the question remains:

If Paul does not believe that people are actually saved by "obedience" to the "law", why does he clearly say some will be?

Its a really simple question, GM. Do you go around saying things that are only hypothetically true.

Imagine if I said "I will be playing professional baseball next year for the NY Yankees". Now, I am a 53 year old man with arms like twigs and I run like a girl. So its clearly impossible that my statement is true.

But using your reasoning, I could say "Well, I could play professional baseball if I wasn't so old, my arms weren't like twigs, and I didn't run like a girl". Well, if that's what I wanted to have said, I would have said that. I would not have said "I will be playing professional baseball next year for the NY Yankees", knowing that this was impossible.

You have Paul doing essentially the same thing - telling us that people will be justified by obeying the law, while at the same believing that this is impossible.

That makes no sense. Nowhere has Paul qualified his statement as only hypothetical.

I can see your "frustrated" however, you cannot take one or two Scriptures, lift them out of context and build a doctrine out of it. That's not the way it works. There are certain truth's we must consider to be solid in there foundation. Some examples would be, the trinity, God's Grace, the atonement, God's forgiveness, God's love towards mankind, the fruits of the Spirit, the Resurrection, the indwelling Spirit, Hell, Heaven, God's judgement, the sin of man etc,.etc. These are foundational truth's that we must adhere to. To do otherwise is to invite, speculation of contradictions and misinterpretation...Not to mention, heretical, and false teaching...We know that man is a sinner and cannot save himself. We know that God sent His Son to sacrifice His own life (on the cross) in order to pay the price for All of mankind's sins. We know that God draws us to His gift of Grace through Jesus sacrifice. We know we cannot earn our salvation or eternal life through our own "good works."

Therefore, we must hear about God's forgiveness and mercy from the preaching of the word (Bible) or from reading it our self. The Holy Spirit uses the word to convict us of sin, and brings us to the realization that we are lost sinners headed for judgment and Hell. We must either except the call for salvation or reject it, by either, placing our faith in the reality of our need for a Savior, or reject the striving of the Spirit and go our own way.

If we choose to place our faith, then the Spirit indwells and seals us for eternity. He literally dwells within us as a believer. And we are "born-again Spiritually" into the "body of Christ" and given the righteousness of Christ. Christ as you know "fulfilled" the law, paid the price for our sins and in the process we are made righteous in Him and am now considered a "child of God" We stand righteous before God because of His work on the cross. Therefore, we have our freedom from the law, our righteousness in Christ, the forgiveness of all our sins, and we are assured of a place in eternity with Him...

 

[glorydaz]

Some times it it a real good thing to remember the Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse.

About any thing we post here can be made to read differently when not read in the whole.


Scriptures were not written see

I'd like to thank you for posting this, reba, for it caused me to remember something I'd known before about this section of scripture (Romans 2), but had forgotten. I was totally taken aback by Drew's statement that Paul says "some are doers of the law". Then I read this and remembered what Free had posted on #236 of this thread. He was correct. This portion of scripture is on the judgment. What I had written was incorrect. Romans 2:6-7 is not comparing the children of God with the children of wrath. I was incorrect because it cannot be, considering what Paul is talking about here....the judgment of God.

The Gospel is summarized in Romans 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Then we have the transition back to the Gospel in Rom. 3:21 connecting back to 1:16-17.

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

This section inbetween 1:18-3:20 is clearly about the wrath of God being revealed, not about the mercy and salvation of God being revealed.

What we see in Romans 2:6-16 is the law, as a covenant of works, not the Gospel, which is a covenant of grace. Paul is making it clear that God is just and rewards the righteous while punishing the sinner. v. 6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" and v. 13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." are summaries of the principle of justice. Only those who are perfect doers of the law will escape the judgment of God, for to fail in one point is to fail in all.


Drew, while attempting to force us to view one verse in isolation, you've confused the issue (and me).
I'm back on the right track now - back to where I was when we began this discussion over a year ago.

Those who persist in well doing can never continue in perfect obedience. Yes, Paul is stating the principle that if anyone was able to perfectly keep the law, he would earn eternal life. He quickly goes on to state that can't happen because the doers of the law are still under the power of sin. 3:9 "for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"

Here is the same verse I gave you the last time we had this discussion. For all man's persistance in well doing, one sin does away with it. Note carefully the bold and underlined..."When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live"....this is exactly what Paul is saying in your verse.

12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Therefore, 2:6-16 cannot be teaching that some “doers of the law†are not under the power of sin, and will gain eternal life. For all are under the power of sin. Nor can it be teaching that "some" will be justified in God's sight by being doers of the law, for by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight. We receive eternal life according to Christ’s righteous works on our behalf. Romans 3:24 - "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" We don't earn our way by any kind of well doing, so it can't be claimed this portion of scripture refers to the well doing we display as believers.

 

[glorydaz]

I can see your "frustrated" however, you cannot take one or two Scriptures, lift them out of context and build a doctrine out of it. That's not the way it works. There are certain truth's we must consider to be solid in there foundation. Some examples would be, the trinity, God's Grace, the atonement, God's forgiveness, God's love towards mankind, the fruits of the Spirit, the Resurrection, the indwelling Spirit, Hell, Heaven, God's judgement, the sin of man etc,.etc. These are foundational truth's that we must adhere to. To do otherwise is to invite, speculation of contradictions and misinterpretation...Not to mention, heretical, and false teaching...We know that man is a sinner and cannot save himself. We know that God sent His Son to sacrifice His own life (on the cross) in order to pay the price for All of mankind's sins. We know that God draws us to His gift of Grace through Jesus sacrifice. We know we cannot earn our salvation or eternal life through our own "good works."

Therefore, we must hear about God's forgiveness and mercy from the preaching of the word (Bible) or from reading it our self. The Holy Spirit uses the word to convict us of sin, and brings us to the realization that we are lost sinners headed for judgment and Hell. We must either except the call for salvation or reject it, by either, placing our faith in the reality of our need for a Savior, or reject the striving of the Spirit and go our own way.

If we choose to place our faith, then the Spirit indwells and seals us for eternity. He literally dwells within us as a believer. And we are "born-again Spiritually" into the "body of Christ" and given the righteousness of Christ. Christ as you know "fulfilled" the law, paid the price for our sins and in the process we are made righteous in Him and am now considered a "child of God" We stand righteous before God because of His work on the cross. Therefore, we have our freedom from the law, our righteousness in Christ, the forgiveness of all our sins, and we are assured of a place in eternity with Him...

AMEN I love it when we get back to the basics.

 

[francisdesales]

Grubal-----The kind of faith that begins the process of our salvation, does not, "show forth works" as you say. That particular kind (of which you speak) only comes after one is "born-again Spiritually" due to the presence of the Holy Spirit within...The faith we come to God with is "simple human faith."

That is difficult to measure, and fear that I would be speculating. I have my doubts about "simple human faith" is something that begins the process, since it is God Who draws US, not the other way around, where God waits for us.

Fran says-----It follows SOMETIMES. The indwelling Spirit does not override our free will. The Spirit gives us a new POTENTIAL, a new principle that we now have the ABILITY to follow. We can share in the divine nature by forgiving and loving our enemies. But this does NOT come "automatically", let me assure you...

Grubal----I concur with what you say here. It's logical and honest. We still have our physical body and we are still susceptible to sin. It's not an easy task to fight the world, the flesh, and the devil...There's constant warfare going on. I go along with you on this...Well said...

I had thought we agreed on more than met the eye, from previous discussions...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It really is that simple, Joe, as Jesus makes clear when He says this...

The theology being simple is not the issue. The point of my disagreement is actually fulfilling what Jesus states we must do. "Become as children"... That is a difficult proposition for an independent-minded and self-sufficient American in today's world. You don't just turn on a switch, and no matter how much "faith" you have, there still is some transition in moving from the ways of the world and the ways of God in all our actions. Yes, God grants us grace - but it is not in one fell-swoop. It is a gradual process of learning to become "as children" in reality.

This comes from trusting in God, an experience that is not learned by books.

I don't believe that Jesus said some "with faith" will fall away, rather He refers to some that follow after for a short time and then turn back.

Read the parable of the sower and the seed. He doesn't make a statement about "turning back". It only says "they fell away". There is nothing to conclude that they "turned back".

If they turn back, they were never with us.

Thus, anyone who falls away 20 years later was never a Christian? You know how ridiculous that sounds? This mentality means you cannot be sure YOU are a Christian - until the day you die and we know you PERSEVERED...

We're exhorted to keep up the fight because our walk will be hindered not that our salvation will be lost.....

Our faith can become a shipwreck. That doesn't sound like something "hindered". It is lost...

his works will be "burned up, but he, himself will be saved."

That is not a universal expression of people who fall away, but some whose ministry has faults and issues while REMAINING faithful in a general sense to Christ...

I realize this is something you will continue to deny, but I won't be persuaded by anything but what I see from the Word. Not that we can't still discuss it, but I see the Word as being very clear on this matter.

ditto...

 

[francisdesales]

I would add that Paul was saying that, to those who "could" obey the law 100% they, then would be considered righteous. However, no man "can" 100% obey the law except if Christ's righteousness is placed on this same man. Which is what happens after salvation has occurred...

I would like to see where Scriptures point out that ANYONE must obey the Law 100% of the time to be granted eternal life from a merciful God!!!

What a presumption. It is based upon human ideas of justice.

Quite frankly, it appears that people do not understand what the concept of "free merciful gift" means... God has chosen to grant eternal salvation to people - even if they don't fulfill the Law "all the time".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Therefore, 2:6-16 cannot be teaching that some “doers of the law†are not under the power of sin, and will gain eternal life. For all are under the power of sin.

You are missing the entire point - that God grants eternal life to ANYONE - ANYONE who He desires to give it. Jew or Gentile. It is NOT dependent upon perfect practicing of the Law - the text never states that.

That includes pagans. THEY have a law, written in their hearts that is SHOWN FORTH by their good deeds of love. FORGET about "theoretically following the Law". Ridiculous. The Spirit's work is SHOWN FORTH, not awaiting in a potential that no one can do! Thus, God grants them eternal life FREELY, as a gift. Not because He is obligated.

Since all men are "under the power of sin", no one can obligate God to grant eternal life. We cannot come before God and say "where is my wages", or "I believe, so now you owe me heaven, God (sound familiar...?) Thus, EVERYONE DEPENDS upon God's gift of salvation. Jew first and then Gentile.

The point, as Romans 3:1's rhetorical question makes clear, is that the Jews are not in a favored position over the Gentiles when it comes to what God grants as a gift. Paul has just torn down the idea that the Jews alone have heaven available to them. Since God writes His Law on the hearts of even pagans (and they OBEY HIM, as shown forth!), God has seen fit to grant the reward of eternal life to even pagans (who are called "spiritual Jews"). AS A FREE GIFT

Paul does NOT say that "no one can obey the Law". EVER! That is doing MAJOR injustice to the text AND the teachings of Paul. HE HIMSELF stated elsewhere that he had perfectly followed the Law! Here, he is saying that God is not a respecter of people. Even Gentiles, who do not have the written Law in stone, CAN obey the law (because of God's gift of grace). And such as these are granted eternal life, based upon God's merciful desires, not because God is looking for a 100% fulfillment of the Law!!!

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation only by Grace !

Salvation by Faith is not even a biblical phrase, it has been contrived by men. The bible teaches Salvation by Grace or one being saved by Grace, which is the same as being saved by grace through Faith.

Eph 2:5,8

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Acts 15:11

But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Faith is part of the Grace that saves !

So in Truth,Salvation is by Grace alone ! And that translates into Election alone, because by Grace means the Election of Grace Rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Now who cannot see that Paul relates :according to the election of grace" in vs 5 with "and if by grace" in vs 6 ?

This means they are the same. So there cannot be Salvation by Grace apart from Election !

 

[glorydaz]

I would like to see where Scriptures point out that ANYONE must obey the Law 100% of the time to be granted eternal life from a merciful God!!!

What a presumption. It is based upon human ideas of justice.

Quite frankly, it appears that people do not understand what the concept of "free merciful gift" means... God has chosen to grant eternal salvation to people - even if they don't fulfill the Law "all the time".

Regards

Actually, that's based on God's idea of justice.

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

God saves us through the redemptive blood of Christ, not by any amount of doing well that we do. This is why there are no "doers of the law" because all men sin and come short of the glory of God. Whether a Jew or a Gentile, they are all under the law, (moral law by our conscience or law of Moses) and still under the power of sin. Jesus Christ is the only "doer of the law" because He did not sin and is, therefore the end of the law for righteousness. He kept the law while remaining sinless....something I'm sure you'd admit man cannot do.

Anyone you know that always follows the dictates of their conscience...without fail and never sinned?
Any Jew that was able to keep the whole law...without fail and never sinned?

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

By saying our well-doing or works contributes to eternal life is the same as what the Jews did. Christ is the only one who should get the glory for our salvation....nothing we can do can contribute to the work of the cross.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Please take the time to read the whole of this scripture...it shows quite clearly that one sin nullifies all our righteous deeds.

12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The theology being simple is not the issue. The point of my disagreement is actually fulfilling what Jesus states we must do. "Become as children"... That is a difficult proposition for an independent-minded and self-sufficient American in today's world. You don't just turn on a switch, and no matter how much "faith" you have, there still is some transition in moving from the ways of the world and the ways of God in all our actions. Yes, God grants us grace - but it is not in one fell-swoop. It is a gradual process of learning to become "as children" in reality.

This comes from trusting in God, an experience that is not learned by books.




Read the parable of the sower and the seed. He doesn't make a statement about "turning back". It only says "they fell away". There is nothing to conclude that they "turned back".



Thus, anyone who falls away 20 years later was never a Christian? You know how ridiculous that sounds? This mentality means you cannot be sure YOU are a Christian - until the day you die and we know you PERSEVERED...




Our faith can become a shipwreck. That doesn't sound like something "hindered". It is lost...



That is not a universal expression of people who fall away, but some whose ministry has faults and issues while REMAINING faithful in a general sense to Christ...



ditto...

The problem is, Fran, I didn't post any of this. Someone else did and you put my name on it. Just a reminder...

 

[glorydaz]

The theology being simple is not the issue. The point of my disagreement is actually fulfilling what Jesus states we must do. "Become as children"... That is a difficult proposition for an independent-minded and self-sufficient American in today's world. You don't just turn on a switch, and no matter how much "faith" you have, there still is some transition in moving from the ways of the world and the ways of God in all our actions. Yes, God grants us grace - but it is not in one fell-swoop. It is a gradual process of learning to become "as children" in reality.

This comes from trusting in God, an experience that is not learned by books.

I agree with you on this. It's the sanctification process that involves the renewing of our mind.

Read the parable of the sower and the seed. He doesn't make a statement about "turning back". It only says "they fell away". There is nothing to conclude that they "turned back".



Thus, anyone who falls away 20 years later was never a Christian? You know how ridiculous that sounds? This mentality means you cannot be sure YOU are a Christian - until the day you die and we know you PERSEVERED...

No, it doesn't mean that at all, and no matter how ridiculous that may sound, it's supported by the Word. Of course that's another topic and one I'm sure we'll go round and round over.

Our faith can become a shipwreck. That doesn't sound like something "hindered". It is lost...

That is not a universal expression of people who fall away, but some whose ministry has faults and issues while REMAINING faithful in a general sense to Christ...

It is a universal expression...tried by fire and the dross burned away is a part of a any believer's walk. It's convenient to say it's only for those in the ministry, but we are all in the "ministry" as we're all told to spread the Gospel message.