Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Gazelle]

and the faith is the faith of the Lord.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Paul was speaking to the Phillipian Jailor in Acts 16 was he not. Are you and I that Phillipian Jailor that Paul was conversing with ? Well I am not.

Now I am going to tell you once more what I did to get myself saved. I did not do anything to get myself saved, Christ saved me by His Grace, by His Mercy,and not because of anything I did.

Now unless you want to ask me what Christ did to save sinners, I have nothing else for you. I am not here to boast about what I did or did not do. I will leave that up to you and your man centered I denied myself to get saved salvation..

You say you did "nothing" to get saved. Please explain then, how God made you realize you were "elected?" Did you suddenly get an "epiphany" or what??

 

[Webb]

Saved by Grace

Address my post a few posts previous.

 

[Gazelle]

Welllllll we do have to repent. While the attitude and thought processes are important in any such discussion (re: reasons for etc.) I think asserting that a thought process, or a change of heart as a work is probably a non sequitur. If you want to insist that even that isn't man's doing, ok... that it comes from God yes... but in the parameters being meted out here it sounds like some think even that is a work. I don't think so.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Saved by grace----Is ANYTHING God tells us to do a work of human merit??

Yes, we must believe...

 

[Eventide]

Paul was speaking to the Phillipian Jailor in Acts 16 was he not. Are you and I that Phillipian Jailor that Paul was conversing with ? Well I am not...

WOW...

Yeah, let's read this and assume that ONLY the Philippian Jailor needed to believe.. and everyone else can sit back and wait til God regenerates them so that they believe.

This is a perfect picture of what Calvinism does to people.. it makes them deny the simplest of biblcal truths and rationalize it away to mean anything but what it actually says in simplicity and truth.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

This I would have to disagree with Francis.. because the OT is all about the Lord Jesus Christ, and the LORD could not have saved us in any other way than what was written in the scriptures.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

I could be reading your comments wrong, although I would disagree with this statement as it comes across.

You are correct - Christ died for our sins - but the reason is out of Love, not because God's mercy depended upon the perfection of another man to fulfill the Law completely and perfectly. God wanted to restore us to the nature given to man before the Fall. Thus, Christ is called the New Adam. This restoration, redemption, goes back to God desiring us to have life and to the fullest, not about law following perfection.

When you state that there was no other way for us to be saved, in a sense, you are correct, since that was God's plan. God's decision to give us something better THROUGH the Fall was indeed His plan. That is God's way - that good comes out of even evil decisions - and man suffers the consequences for his own good. Since God had planned this means of joining us into union with Him through suffering, then it is a "necessity". My point is that in a variety of alternatives open to God, He was not forced to show us His Love in that fashion by some external requirement, such as the law...

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

ah ha! Two threads being motivated by the same members. NOW I get why I have been so confused.


No cog in the wheel: salvation by GRACE only.... not faith? ;)

Don't understand what your trying to convey?? Could you explain???

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Saved by grace----Is ANYTHING God tells us to do a work of human merit??

Yes, believe

 

[Eventide]

Re: In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

You are correct - Christ died for our sins - but the reason is out of Love, not because God's mercy depended upon the perfection of another man to fulfill the Law completely and perfectly. God wanted to restore us to the nature given to man before the Fall. Thus, Christ is called the New Adam. This restoration, redemption, goes back to God desiring us to have life and to the fullest, not about law following perfection.

When you state that there was no other way for us to be saved, in a sense, you are correct, since that was God's plan. God's decision to give us something better THROUGH the Fall was indeed His plan. That is God's way - that good comes out of even evil decisions - and man suffers the consequences for his own good. Since God had planned this means of joining us into union with Him through suffering, then it is a "necessity". My point is that in a variety of alternatives open to God, He was not forced to show us His Love in that fashion by some external requirement, such as the law...

Regards

This is an important topic for me francis, because I often hear folks saying that God is not obligated to save anyone.. and I think that is gross error.. He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.. and everything in the OT points to Him and the story has been told again and again in limitless ways.. all glorifying God through Jesus Christ our LORD.

SO I didn't actually want to get into this discussion about being perfect etc.. although that comment about God could have saved us in any way doesn't sit right in the grand theme of things if you know what I mean.

 

[Webb]

GB

Explain how Jn.6:29 (believe) is a work of human merit. I also look forward to SBG's reply to my post.

 

[savedbygrace57]

WOW...

Yeah, let's read this and assume that ONLY the Philippian Jailor needed to believe.. and everyone else can sit back and wait til God regenerates them so that they believe.

This is a perfect picture of what Calvinism does to people.. it makes them deny the simplest of biblcal truths and rationalize it away to mean anything but what it actually says in simplicity and truth.

Well since I have answered your question about what I did to get saved, which was nothing, it was by Grace and nothing I did, and you have ignored it and continue to insist what a man must do, and have refused to discuss what Christ has done to save, then I shall ignore you, seems fair enough to me. I leave you with this Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 11:5

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You reject salvation by grace and insist it is of works, man doing something Acts 16:30

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well since I have answered your question about what I did to get saved, which was nothing, it was by Grace and nothing I did, and you have ignored it and continue to insist what a man must do, and have refused to discuss what Christ has done to save, then I shall ignore you, seems fair enough to me. I leave you with this Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 11:5

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You reject salvation by grace and insist it is of works, man doing something Acts 16:30

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Before you leave, could you answer my question of how you knew you were saved, did you have an "epiphany" or something. You said that you do "nothing" so I'm wondering how you know. (by doing nothing)

 

[glorydaz]

so he had to send us a savior to fulfill the payment of the law

AMEN...and that right there is the point I've been trying to make. The righteous requirements of God's Law demanded a sinless sacrifice. Man couldn't fulfill God's requirement of perfection...thus the need for our Saviour.

God could not just "pardon" our sins by dispensing MERCY. Until Christ came, God winked or over looked man's sin because the remedy of the cross was from the foundation of the world. It was coming and in sight and manifest to mankind at Calvary.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Blood was required. I'm sure that doesn't sit well with those who believe that God is only love and mercy, but it was God's idea..not mine.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.[/color

 

[glorydaz]

Re: In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

You are correct - Christ died for our sins - but the reason is out of Love, not because God's mercy depended upon the perfection of another man to fulfill the Law completely and perfectly.
Regards

Jesus was not just "another man." He was the perfect Lamb of God without spot or wrinkle.

God's mercy did depend upon that sinless sacrifice. Mercy is punishment withheld until payment is rendered. Not punishment pardoned. God couldn't just decide to pardon...He couldn't just say, "That's alright guys, I forgive you." Blood was required and the "man" had to be spotless. A righteous God could do no less.

The time to pay up came on the cross, and Jesus, being fully God and fully man is the only one who fit the bill. Basically, God had to do it all Himself, and we need only partake of the provision of Christ Jesus as put forth in His Gospel of faith.

 

[Gazelle]

WOW...



This is a perfect picture of what Calvinism does to people.. it makes them deny the simplest of biblcal truths and rationalize it away to mean anything but what it actually says in simplicity and truth.

Please don't lump all "Calvinists" into one basket. I am one and don't deny any of the "simplest" of Biblical TRUTHS. It's one thing to have a viewpoint. It's good to make your point without putting another's down imo. Don't attack the person, explain your viewpoint instead. (And this isn't to say you haven't explained...)

 

[Eventide]

Please don't lump all "Calvinists" into one basket. I am one and don't deny any of the "simplest" of Biblical TRUTHS. It's one thing to have a viewpoint. It's good to make your point without putting another's down imo. Don't attack the person, explain your viewpoint instead. (And this isn't to say you haven't explained...)

Point well taken, thank you.. I know that SBG is what many call a Hyper Calvinist.. although imo it doesn't matter much.. TULIP is false doctrine regardless if one is hyper or moderate Calvinist.. at least imo..

 

[Gazelle]

TULIP is false doctrine regardless if one is hyper or moderate Calvinist.. at least imo..

Well, that may be your opinion, and if you are a trained theologian, you may even feel you have supportive data that you rely upon for that view. However, I beg to differ from you in that respect. I believe it could be a person's misunderstanding of this doctrine that causes such antagonism.

And, no, not to me is hyper Calvinism the same thing.

 

[Eventide]

Well, that may be your opinion, and if you are a trained theologian, you may even feel you have supportive data that you rely upon for that view. However, I beg to differ from you in that respect. I believe it could be a person's misunderstanding of this doctrine that causes such antagonism.

And, no, not to me is hyper Calvinism the same thing.

Opinions vary no doubt.. Feel free to share your opinion as to the TULIP theology if you'd like.. although it would probably be best to take it to another thread and not do it here in this on.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

This is an important topic for me francis, because I often hear folks saying that God is not obligated to save anyone.. and I think that is gross error.. He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.. and everything in the OT points to Him and the story has been told again and again in limitless ways.. all glorifying God through Jesus Christ our LORD.

SO I didn't actually want to get into this discussion about being perfect etc.. although that comment about God could have saved us in any way doesn't sit right in the grand theme of things if you know what I mean.

Eventide,

By revelation, we believe that God is a God of Love Who desires to unite with His creation in a relationship analogous to the Blessed Trinity. Jesus tells us this at the Last Supper in John's Gospel. Please take a moment to read this, as it does great damage to the one who thinks that Jesus just "covers" us...

I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their message, that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, so that they may be one, just as we are one. I am in them, and you are in me. May they be completely one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you have loved them as you loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory, which you gave me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, the world has never known you. Yet I have known you, and these men have known that you sent me. I made your name known to them, and will continue to make it known, so that the love you have for me may be in them and I myself may be in them."

These are not the last words of a man going to the cross who is wondering about "perfect fulfillment of the law following" or "legal covering of the sinner"... It is divinization, the Christian becoming, quite literally but in a mysterious way, "IN CHRIST". Such unity is the result of a loving desire to share of Himself with us, not a worry about legal imputation or utter perfection demanded by Law that has no force or ability.

Knowing this about God, it would seem fitting to say that God WOULD grant mercy to mankind, given our state after original sin. Our faith is based upon this understanding of God.

However, as you may know, "God is merciful" is not part of the definition of a Divine Being, for Muslims, for example, see God's justice as something different than we see God's justice. The variety of views on the attributes of God by different religions tells us of the POSSIBILITIES of Who God is. We believe God is a merciful, just and loving God - and they have meaning to us Christians. Muslims have a different view of the One God.

Thus, when I speak of different possibilities, of God not obligated to save us, I mean there is no outside "force" that makes God decide one way or the other. God is not forced by the Law, He created the Law, He is the Lawmaker. But knowing God is Love, and it is the nature of Love to have Mercy, we would expect that God would be "compelled" to save His creation that has fallen.

Salvation is utter grace, freely given. It is not something earned. How could the Father do otherwise but to grant mercy in the name of His Son... The Father stated that He WOULD glorify the Son.

As you can tell, I see salvation on a different plane then mere legality.

Regards