Salvation by faith alone/only?

[francisdesales]

Re: In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

Jesus was not just "another man." He was the perfect Lamb of God without spot or wrinkle.

You are nitpicking now. I didn't say Jesus was "JUST" another man.

I think this is your reaction to being unable to make a cohesive rebuttal based on opinions without Scriptural backing.

God's mercy did depend upon that sinless sacrifice.

No it didn't. You can say it all day until the cows come home, but it isn't going to move anyone here until you present Scriptures to that effect.

Mercy is punishment withheld until payment is rendered.

No it isn't. God can grant mercy where punishment is not even conceived. Such as when the Israelites were freed from Egypt. Mercy is the reaction of love when it confronts suffering and misery.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

Jesus was not just "another man." He was the perfect Lamb of God without spot or wrinkle.

God's mercy did depend upon that sinless sacrifice. Mercy is punishment withheld until payment is rendered. Not punishment pardoned. God couldn't just decide to pardon...He couldn't just say, "That's alright guys, I forgive you." Blood was required and the "man" had to be spotless. A righteous God could do no less.

The time to pay up came on the cross, and Jesus, being fully God and fully man is the only one who fit the bill. Basically, God had to do it all Himself, and we need only partake of the provision of Christ Jesus as put forth in His Gospel of faith.

Well put my brother!!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, that may be your opinion, and if you are a trained theologian, you may even feel you have supportive data that you rely upon for that view. However, I beg to differ from you in that respect. I believe it could be a person's misunderstanding of this doctrine that causes such antagonism.

And, no, not to me is hyper Calvinism the same thing.

You need not be a theologian nor a scholar to share the Gospel. Remember, 1 Corinthians 1:27, " But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty." A "Scholar" may have been "indoctrinated" in one discipline or another, through a seminary, college,but it doesn't mean he has "transcended" to a place of knowledge and all wisdom beyond the reach of all the rest of us...The Holy Spirit is able to give even the least of us, understanding. Remember, the same Spirit speaks to the intellectual as He does to the average (in intelligence) man. There is, as well, denominational Bias, that can sway the (would be) scholar towards one particular school of thought and another...

 

[glorydaz]

Eventide,

By revelation, we believe that God is a God of Love Who desires to unite with His creation in a relationship analogous to the Blessed Trinity. Jesus tells us this at the Last Supper in John's Gospel. Please take a moment to read this, as it does great damage to the one who thinks that Jesus just "covers" us...

These are not the last words of a man going to the cross who is wondering about "perfect fulfillment of the law following" or "legal covering of the sinner"... It is divinization, the Christian becoming, quite literally but in a mysterious way, "IN CHRIST". Such unity is the result of a loving desire to share of Himself with us, not a worry about legal imputation or utter perfection demanded by Law that has no force or ability.

Knowing this about God, it would seem fitting to say that God WOULD grant mercy to mankind, given our state after original sin. Our faith is based upon this understanding of God.


As you can tell, I see salvation on a different plane then mere legality.

That's true, you seem to see salvation based on "mere" mercy. If that were the case there would have been no need for the cross. You make it sound like another way could have been possible. Since all things are possible with God, you're left to believe He chose the best.

What you're doing is concentrating so heavily on one of God's attributes that you ignore others. God's Justice, for instance. God's Justice will reign over God's Mercy if man's heart condition is unrepentant.

If there was a righteous judge on the bench and a man came before him guilty as sin (pardon the pun), would he extend mercy if the man wasn't sorry for what he'd done? I'm talking a righteous judge, here, not a liberal judge who lets off all offenders to the dismay of the man's victims. Would it be right to let the guilty go free?

It was God's mercy to mankind that Jesus came to the cross. The work of the cross satisfies all of God's attributes. The penalty for sin was paid and a way was made for life through faith...repentance is a necessary part of that equation. God's mercy will not over-ride His Justice, as all will find out on the Judgment Day.

 

[jasoncran]

AMEN...and that right there is the point I've been trying to make. The righteous requirements of God's Law demanded a sinless sacrifice. Man couldn't fulfill God's requirement of perfection...thus the need for our Saviour.

God could not just "pardon" our sins by dispensing MERCY. Until Christ came, God winked or over looked man's sin because the remedy of the cross was from the foundation of the world. It was coming and in sight and manifest to mankind at Calvary.




Blood was required. I'm sure that doesn't sit well with those who believe that God is only love and mercy, but it was God's idea..not mine.

who said that? i never held that postition and neither does joe. shall i walk you through ezekiel where its says God will not remember the righteous when they turn from him and also when the wicked repent and he wont remember there sins.

ok when the lord was prophecied to come and you posted isiah 53 that was the new way to get the mercy vs the laws way.

first one must believe that God is who he is then you must repent. in both covenants that is the case.

now then is the good king david when he told thy sins have been removed not forgiven? god didnt really mean this

2 samuel

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

[/FONT]

 

[jasoncran]

glory you make the mistake of assuming god was angry and quick to judge then and didnt do that in the nt. i think he is no different.

he judged annias and saphiras quickly and also the jews in ad 70.

God hasnt changed, he just reaveled himself as time passed and we have that full revalation. God is indeed but a justice and merciful god. joe hasnt denied that.

i posted the verses on jonah on what message he gave and that god was going to destroy niveneh and he repented because they repented in sackcloth. would a god quick to judge do that?

 

[freeway]

As the topic says. I believe YES....

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus was not just "another man." He was the perfect Lamb of God without spot or wrinkle.

You are nitpicking now. I didn't say Jesus was "JUST" another man.

I think this is your reaction to being unable to make a cohesive rebuttal based on opinions without Scriptural backing.

You said "another man" when referring to Jesus. That shouldn't sit well with any believer. Call it nitpicking if you will. Had Jesus been "another man," He wouldn't have been the spotless Lamb of God.

God's mercy did depend upon that sinless sacrifice.

No it didn't. You can say it all day until the cows come home, but it isn't going to move anyone here until you present Scriptures to that effect.

You really need to look at the mercy seat. I've presented scripture for that already.

The mercy seat covered the law in the Ark of the Covenant. See what happens when the law has been exposed here in 1 Samuel. The mercy seat had to have been lifted off in order for them to look inside. No man can be left standing when faced with the exposed law. If you really want to understand God's mercy, you'll have to look to the OT which gave us the perfect picture via the Throne of Grace and the Judgment Seat...with the law inside the Ark and the Mercy Seat covering. Which, incidentally is why Christ is our covering when we're saved.

And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Bethshemesh said, Who is able to stand before this holy LORD God? and to whom shall he go up from us?

Mercy is punishment withheld until payment is rendered.

No it isn't. God can grant mercy where punishment is not even conceived. Such as when the Israelites were freed from Egypt. Mercy is the reaction of love when it confronts suffering and misery.

Joe, you're wonderful. I'm so glad you brought that up.

That's the Passover. THE perfect picture. Unless the blood was sprinkled over the door post, the death angel would not pass over their house.

It had nothing to do with love confronting suffering and misery and everything to do with the blood.

And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

 

[glorydaz]

who said that? i never held that postition and neither does joe. shall i walk you through ezekiel where its says God will not remember the righteous when they turn from him and also when the wicked repent and he wont remember there sins.

ok when the lord was prophecied to come and you posted isiah 53 that was the new way to get the mercy vs the laws way.

first one must believe that God is who he is then you must repent. in both covenants that is the case.

now then is the good king david when he told thy sins have been removed not forgiven? god didnt really mean this

2 samuel
[/FONT]

I'm sorry, Jason, but I have no idea what you're talking about. What did I say that you disagree with?

 

[francisdesales]

That's true, you seem to see salvation based on "mere" mercy.

You seem to desperately try to avoid my simple questions by trying to claim that I am belittling the work of Christ on the cross...

If that were the case there would have been no need for the cross.

Your logic fails. It presents a false dilemna. The "need for the cross" does not depend entirely on "perfect justice" being satisfied. Thus, it is not either :

God needs the cross to show perfect Justice.
God doesn't need the cross because He doesn't care about Justice.

The "need for the cross" is not ultimately dependent upon Justice at all...

You make it sound like another way could have been possible.

What is commanding God to sacrifice His Son???

The Law??? Some obscure and non-biblical human notion of justice?

Please, please explain to me where the Bible tells us this NEED for perfect justice to be satisfied at the cross as the ONLY alternative to satisfy God.

Since all things are possible with God, you're left to believe He chose the best.

Of course, that is without question. But it doesn't follow that your reason is correct.

What you're doing is concentrating so heavily on one of God's attributes that you ignore others. God's Justice, for instance.

That is YOUR idea of Justice. Justice and what satisfies "it" is dependent upon the One offended. Not YOUR ideas.

If a kid throws a baseball through my window, "justice" states that the kid or the father of the kid pay me back for a new window. However, the choice of what satisfies MY justice, what is due to ME, is dependent upon ME. Not you. I can have the kid work in my yard for a month and pay the rest. I don't have to require an "eye for an eye".

I have asked you from the BEGINNING. Where is this biblical notion that God DEMANDS perfect satisfaction from a perfect Law follower? HUMAN thinking may require that, but does the Bible state that GOD requires this? It might seem fitting that God would, but God is a surprising Being. Who would have thought that He would become man and die for our sake? Don't go assuming that God's justice demands something when you cannot even find that idea in Scriptures...

What is galling is that I keep asking for this Scriptural data and you keep ignoring me. Why is that, Glorydaz? Are you more intent on just being "right"? If you can present a case to back up your point with Scriptures, please do so.

God's Justice will reign over God's Mercy if man's heart condition is unrepentant.

You have not shown me that you even know what mercy is. To you, it depends upon a guilty person being released from punishment... Any reader of the OT will shake their head in wonder on how someone could come up with that nonsense...

If there was a righteous judge on the bench and a man came before him guilty as sin (pardon the pun), would he extend mercy if the man wasn't sorry for what he'd done? I'm talking a righteous judge, here, not a liberal judge who lets off all offenders to the dismay of the man's victims. Would it be right to let the guilty go free?

You are again comparing apples and automotives. Human judges are hardly comparible to God, since human judges are not personally offended, nor did they create the offender, nor is THEIR Law broken. Nor did the human judge provide help to the future criminal (grace) to stay on the good side of the Law. They are tasked to do a job, and in tort law, they hardly have any room to grant mercy. They must follow the letter of the Law or precedent.

It was God's mercy to mankind that Jesus came to the cross.

Yes, but not to pay a "debt" to some unnamed being that held mankind in bondage. The term "redeem" is an analogy, it can only be taken so far. God did not "buy back" humanity from the devil.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

glory you make the mistake of assuming god was angry and quick to judge then and didnt do that in the nt. i think he is no different.

he judged annias and saphiras quickly and also the jews in ad 70.

God hasnt changed, he just reaveled himself as time passed and we have that full revalation. God is indeed but a justice and merciful god. joe hasnt denied that.

i posted the verses on jonah on what message he gave and that god was going to destroy niveneh and he repented because they repented in sackcloth. would a god quick to judge do that?

I assume no such thing. I see no difference between how God was in the Old versus the New Testament. God does not change. My argument with Joe is that a perfect sacrifice was required by God's perfect Justice. I've also stated quite clearly, I thought, that God looks at the heart of man, and must see repentance before mercy is dispensed. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it than I have already.

Since God is Holy, He will not abide sin in His presence. Thus the need for the Lamb without Blemish to satisfy God's law that demands death for sin. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ez. 18:20. That's what God says. In order to pay that requirement of God's law, Jesus had to come. Now, what is your argument with that. I've been arguing with Joe about that for pages and pages. So, you tell me. What's the problem?

 

[glorydaz]

You seem to desperately try to avoid my simple questions by trying to claim that I am belittling the work of Christ on the cross...



Your logic fails. It presents a false dilemna. The "need for the cross" does not depend entirely on "perfect justice" being satisfied. Thus, it is not either :

God needs the cross to show perfect Justice.
God doesn't need the cross because He doesn't care about Justice.

The "need for the cross" is not ultimately dependent upon Justice at all...



What is commanding God to sacrifice His Son???

The Law??? Some obscure and non-biblical human notion of justice?

Please, please explain to me where the Bible tells us this NEED for perfect justice to be satisfied at the cross as the ONLY alternative to satisfy God.



Of course, that is without question. But it doesn't follow that your reason is correct.



That is YOUR idea of Justice. Justice and what satisfies "it" is dependent upon the One offended. Not YOUR ideas.

If a kid throws a baseball through my window, "justice" states that the kid or the father of the kid pay me back for a new window. However, the choice of what satisfies MY justice, what is due to ME, is dependent upon ME. Not you. I can have the kid work in my yard for a month and pay the rest. I don't have to require an "eye for an eye".

I have asked you from the BEGINNING. Where is this biblical notion that God DEMANDS perfect satisfaction from a perfect Law follower? HUMAN thinking may require that, but does the Bible state that GOD requires this? It might seem fitting that God would, but God is a surprising Being. Who would have thought that He would become man and die for our sake? Don't go assuming that God's justice demands something when you cannot even find that idea in Scriptures...

What is galling is that I keep asking for this Scriptural data and you keep ignoring me. Why is that, Glorydaz? Are you more intent on just being "right"? If you can present a case to back up your point with Scriptures, please do so.



You have not shown me that you even know what mercy is. To you, it depends upon a guilty person being released from punishment... Any reader of the OT will shake their head in wonder on how someone could come up with that nonsense...



You are again comparing apples and automotives. Human judges are hardly comparible to God, since human judges are not personally offended, nor did they create the offender, nor is THEIR Law broken. Nor did the human judge provide help to the future criminal (grace) to stay on the good side of the Law. They are tasked to do a job, and in tort law, they hardly have any room to grant mercy. They must follow the letter of the Law or precedent.



Yes, but not to pay a "debt" to some unnamed being that held mankind in bondage. The term "redeem" is an analogy, it can only be taken so far. God did not "buy back" humanity from the devil.

Regards

I couldn't even finish reading what you've posted, Joe.

Oh, I do see your last sentence up there. God didn't buy back anything from the devil.

God paid the price required for our sin. That's about as simple as it gets.
We were bought with a price.

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

While skimming by, I saw the word "galled". Don't be galled, Joe. I am simply posting what I assumed all believers know off the top of their head. If I have to read words like galled, I simply will have to skip your posts.

I'll just say this....Mercy Seat and the Passover.

 

[francisdesales]

You said "another man" when referring to Jesus. That shouldn't sit well with any believer. Call it nitpicking if you will. Had Jesus been "another man," He wouldn't have been the spotless Lamb of God.

"Another man" does not imply anything negative about that One. Jesus is another man, is He not? He is not you, He is not me. He is another.

The mercy seat covered the law in the Ark of the Covenant. See what happens when the law has been exposed here in 1 Samuel. The mercy seat had to have been lifted off in order for them to look inside. No man can be left standing when faced with the exposed law. If you really want to understand God's mercy, you'll have to look to the OT which gave us the perfect picture via the Throne of Grace and the Judgment Seat...with the law inside the Ark and the Mercy Seat covering. Which, incidentally is why Christ is our covering when we're saved.

And what on earth has this to do with God requiring the death of a Perfect Law Follower before His Mercy can act or His Justice is satisfied? You are again confusing ritual purity with actual purity...

Jesus is NOT our "covering". He abides in us and we in Him. There is no "pretend" status, as if to hide us from the Father. We are MADE holy because we BECOME part of the Body of Christ.

Joe, you're wonderful. I'm so glad you brought that up.

That's the Passover. THE perfect picture. Unless the blood was sprinkled over the door post, the death angel would not pass over their house.

It had nothing to do with love confronting suffering and misery and everything to do with the blood.

????

Thanks for again proving your lack of knowledge of Scriptures...

Then the LORD said, "I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey Ex 3:7-8

HMM. Nothing about perfection required here... God has surely seen His people suffer, and in His mercy, will save them...

I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm and with great judgments: And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burden of the Egyptians. Ex 6:5-7

Would you like some more? Clearly, God was not holding back punishment here. He was being merciful. Without any merit, God made the Israelites His people, freeing them from slavery, REDEEMING them. There was no necessity for them to be pure and perfect first. Nor is there any mention of a future person who would fulfill that role of the 'needed perfection'. God is merciful based upon the cries of His people and His desire to grant mercy...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I couldn't even finish reading what you've posted, Joe.

Of course you couldn't...

We know why. The more you read, the more you are shown to be wrong... This is a sign that you are not interested in truth, but just being right.

Oh, I do see your last sentence up there. God didn't buy back anything from the devil.

God paid the price required for our sin. That's about as simple as it gets.
We were bought with a price.

What is simple is that you added to what the Scriptures actually say...

Neither verse states "God paid the price required for our sin". It says that we were bought/purchased for a price.

Love is expensive. It is the dying of self. Anyone who loves knows about the "price" we pay for the sake of the beloved!!!

God didn't pay anyone - the price is the price of Love, you don't pay someone to show that love. You "pay the price" to manifest that love to the beloved.

Those who focus on the law and works salvation don't know about this, I guess.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

That's fine, Joe. Jesus could have sinned and God would have been merciful and saved us.

Does that make you happy?

 

[francisdesales]

That's fine, Joe. Jesus could have sinned and God would have been merciful and saved us.

Sarcasm... Yes, I guess it is time to go to bed...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

Before you leave, could you answer my question of how you knew you were saved

This thread is not about me, its about Christ and what He accomplished.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That's true, you seem to see salvation based on "mere" mercy. If that were the case there would have been no need for the cross. You make it sound like another way could have been possible. Since all things are possible with God, you're left to believe He chose the best.

What you're doing is concentrating so heavily on one of God's attributes that you ignore others. God's Justice, for instance. God's Justice will reign over God's Mercy if man's heart condition is unrepentant.

If there was a righteous judge on the bench and a man came before him guilty as sin (pardon the pun), would he extend mercy if the man wasn't sorry for what he'd done? I'm talking a righteous judge, here, not a liberal judge who lets off all offenders to the dismay of the man's victims. Would it be right to let the guilty go free?

It was God's mercy to mankind that Jesus came to the cross. The work of the cross satisfies all of God's attributes. The penalty for sin was paid and a way was made for life through faith...repentance is a necessary part of that equation. God's mercy will not over-ride His Justice, as all will find out on the Judgment Day.

AMEN Brother...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You said "another man" when referring to Jesus. That shouldn't sit well with any believer. Call it nitpicking if you will. Had Jesus been "another man," He wouldn't have been the spotless Lamb of God.





You really need to look at the mercy seat. I've presented scripture for that already.

The mercy seat covered the law in the Ark of the Covenant. See what happens when the law has been exposed here in 1 Samuel. The mercy seat had to have been lifted off in order for them to look inside. No man can be left standing when faced with the exposed law. If you really want to understand God's mercy, you'll have to look to the OT which gave us the perfect picture via the Throne of Grace and the Judgment Seat...with the law inside the Ark and the Mercy Seat covering. Which, incidentally is why Christ is our covering when we're saved.







Joe, you're wonderful. I'm so glad you brought that up.

That's the Passover. THE perfect picture. Unless the blood was sprinkled over the door post, the death angel would not pass over their house.

It had nothing to do with love confronting suffering and misery and everything to do with the blood.

Hebrews 9:22---"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

 

[glorydaz]

Of course you couldn't...

We know why. The more you read, the more you are shown to be wrong... This is a sign that you are not interested in truth, but just being right.

Nope...you guessed wrong again. The only thing I've been shown by you is a spirit of contention. I really don't care to hear how galled I make you, or how I'm cheerleading someone if I say Amen. It's the little things that add up to my being reluctant to even read what you have to say. I try, but I can't seem to get too far before I just start shaking my head. It really shouldn't be this way, Joe, because I know you're a pretty nice guy at heart. There have been times when I'm actually quite fond of you, but it isn't worth it when you get so .....offensive, I guess, is the word I'm looking for.