Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Eventide]

I was saved by Grace..

Me too, and every other person who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most babes in Christ can usually answer a simple biblical question pertaining to what we must do to be saved.. you proved that you can't.

 

[Webb]

In post # 534 Savedbygrace asked: "When the jailor asked Paul what must he do to be saved. What does the word DO imply?"

The jailer was a pagan. He didn't knmow who Jesus was. He was told to believe in Jesus (Acts 16:31). But note please, the record does not stop there. The very next verse reads: "And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house." There was more for him and his house to hear. The very next verse reads: "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway."

Somewhere between vs. 31 and vs. 33 in speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer and his household baptism was preached. To be saved one must believe that Jesus is the Christ ( Jn.8:24), repent of sin ( Acts 2:38 ) and be baptized for the remission of sins ( Acts 2:38 ). The jailer's repentance is shown as he washes the stripes he had caused to be placed on the backs of Paul and Silas, ( vs.33 ). Jesus has said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" ( Mark 16:16 ).The story of the Jailer's conversion begins with belief and ends with baptism, just as Jesus said.

 

[Sinthesis]

Apparently, you are also utterly unaware of what RITUAL PURITY is, what its purpose is, and how it is DIFFERENT from utter sinlessness...

This may in fact be the only contention between you guys; the difference in scripture between symbol and substance.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Me too, and every other person who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most babes in Christ can usually answer a simple biblical question pertaining to what we must do to be saved.. you proved that you can't.

AMEN!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

This is because believing somebody is not a mindless or heartless transaction.. there's conviction involved, based upon evidence.. believing God is actually agreeing with God's word.. "Can two walk together except they be agreed ?"



When taken as a whole it's obvious... what must I do... believing the truth about what God says.. it's what Abraham did DO, it's what the Bereans did DO.. they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true, they saw the evidence..

Did you need to believe in order to be saved..? Did you need to repent ? Take up your cross ? Deny yourself ? Or did God just allow that for you and not for all men ?

I can't imagine how anyone can't see how ridiculous that is..

It's easier to get a "root canal" than to get an answer!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

What you just proved is your inability to answer the simplest of biblical questions pertaining to salvation, which even a babe in Christ could answer simply by reciting the truth of God's word.

But not you..

He doesn't have the answer, that's why he will not give you one...

 

[glorydaz]

It has already been pointed out to you that believing in Christ is the work of God.. nobody wakes up one day and then believes something which they have not been convicted of. We know that the Spirit of God does exactly that.. He convinces the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. so it should be very obvious that believing in Christ is the work of God.

Does that mean that men can sit back and hope that they're regenerated so that they will believe..? Not at all.. because it's every bit as true that we must believe in order to be saved.. no exceptions,, not even for you.. even if you are led to believe that you're the elect..

AND, if you actually BELIEVED God then you would agree with what His words say in simplicity.. you would actually agree with the truth of God's word that you must believe in order to be saved.. and that you must take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him..

But rather than agree with this most simple biblical principal.. you must say that it's the working of men and that it's works based salvation.. this is the fruit of following men like Calvin who taught that salvation is unconditional.. that God chooses certain men and then regenerates them so that they will believe that they need to take up their cross and follow Christ..

How glorious is that ? God preselects men and then allows them to lay down their life for Him.. imo that's ridiculous.. and yet it is swallowed hook line and sinker by many men like yourself...

Whoa...the money changers have just left the temple. ;)

Great job, brother.

 

[glorydaz]

What I have proved is that you believe and teach salvation by works. This thread is not about how I was saved. But I will say this, I was saved by Grace and not by anything I did !

You do have a different Jesus than the One we know in the Bible.

Or do you have Jesus at all?
What's the need, right?

No need for faith, no need for repentance. God just elected you because you are so special.
Now I see why Eventide keeps calling you special. You actually think you are.

I just thought you were stubborn, but now I wonder if you even know the Lord Jesus Christ.
Faith in Him is a necessary ingredient for salvation, you know?

 

[glorydaz]

This may in fact be the only contention between you guys; the difference in scripture between symbol and substance.

LOL I'm thinking our differences are much greater than either symbol or substance.

The requirement that it took a perfect sacrifice to redeem us is just about as basic as it comes, and we can't even agree on that. One has to wonder why Jesus came at all. God should have just had mercy on us and all would be good.

 

[francisdesales]

This may in fact be the only contention between you guys; the difference in scripture between symbol and substance.

Well, I think there is the issue of his belief that God does not grant mercy until a perfect law follower appears...

I would be citing the Bible for days before I finished shooting that idea down. I think it is crystal clear that the OT speaks of the mercy of God.

IF God only provided mercy to the perfect Law follower, then how is it that the Jews of the OT KNEW that God was merciful, given there were no "perfect Law followers" yet???

Another question that we wont see answered by "glorydaz"...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

LOL I'm thinking our differences are much greater than either symbol or substance.

The requirement that it took a perfect sacrifice to redeem us is just about as basic as it comes, and we can't even agree on that. One has to wonder why Jesus came at all. God should have just had mercy on us and all would be good.

I follow what the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition teach.

I don't know where you get your info, but it isn't from Scriptures. That is clear. We have yet to see one single verse that suggests that God awaits for the perfect Law follower before granting mercy. Boy, where shall I start in quoting from Scriptures to prove you wrong - there is too many!!!

It is clear to me that you are not familiar with the OT, since it is FULL of God's Merciful work - granted to imperfect Law followers... How could someone MISS it???!!!

How ELSE would the Jews KNOW that God was a merciful God? They experienced it firsthand, didn't they? But according to you, God did not provide mercy UNTIL the perfect Law follower came...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

LOL I'm thinking our differences are much greater than either symbol or substance.

The requirement that it took a perfect sacrifice to redeem us is just about as basic as it comes, and we can't even agree on that. One has to wonder why Jesus came at all. God should have just had mercy on us and all would be good.

I don't wonder why Jesus came - the problem is that your paradigm is being turned upside down, not mine, not anyone else who is familiar with Love and Its expression...

If one focuses on Law following and works salvation, it is easy to see how you come up with your "God requires perfect justice to be satisfied". To such, salvation is a work earned - whether done by you or Jesus. According to you - not Scriptures - God apparently demands perfection for His Justice to be satisfied. This can only come from a human mentality of justice and a person who has not read the parables given to us by Jesus Christ when judgment is the subject!

If one focuses on "God is Love", there is no worries - we base our faith on the righteousness of God and His Loving Promises that He made to those who love Him. To such, salvation is a gift, graciously given by a loving Father.

Think about the difference between a wage and a gift. Your theology has salvation as a wage paid to Jesus, when the Bible tells us that Jesus LAID ASIDE any such demands!!!

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I don't wonder why Jesus came - the problem is that your paradigm is being turned upside down, not mine, not anyone else who is familiar with Love and Its expression...

If one focuses on Law following and works salvation, it is easy to see how you come up with your "God requires perfect justice to be satisfied". To such, salvation is a work earned - whether done by you or Jesus. According to you - not Scriptures - God apparently demands perfection for His Justice to be satisfied. This can only come from a human mentality of justice and a person who has not read the parables given to us by Jesus Christ when judgment is the subject!

If one focuses on "God is Love", there is no worries - we base our faith on the righteousness of God and His Loving Promises that He made to those who love Him. To such, salvation is a gift, graciously given by a loving Father.

Think about the difference between a wage and a gift. Your theology has salvation as a wage paid to Jesus, when the Bible tells us that Jesus LAID ASIDE any such demands!!!

Regards

I see your love my friend. It "seethe's" out of every pore of written "diatribe." You exude fellowship in every gently chosen word...My compliment's to you sir...

 

[jasoncran]

It appears that you agree that man does not need to be utterly sinless before God turns to grant mercy to us...

For anyone who has read the OT will quickly realize that God is a God of mercy and forgiveness. Note, forgiveness. This implies that somoene had sinned and needed to be forgiven. Now, doesn't the verses you imply suggest that forgiveness was granted despite there not being a perfect law follower?



Regards

hmm i add this

from jonah and he preached to the nation of assyria. sworn enemies of the nation of isreal and judah.

they repented. why didnt jonah go at first?

he even tells us why.

jonah

Jonah 4



1But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. 2And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil

hmm and in exodus.
34

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
9And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance. 10And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee

 

[jasoncran]

sigh. its not that god had to have a sacrifice that was perfect to satisfy his justice it was that entire law (while holy and perfect) was to point to the lord. the point here was that no man could and again with the protestants here that seems to think that god put the judgment of mans sin upon the lord as a means to change what the way to repentance was.

in the tanakh it was faith with the animals sacrifice was the way to the lord,. now its faith in christ with our means to repent as confession to him.


point taken in hebrews.
2

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

4

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

hebrews 7

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore

and hebrews 8

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore

and hebrews 9

Hebrews 9

King James Version (KJV)


Hebrews 9


1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.





King James Version (KJV) Public Domain

 

[reba]

Amen Jason

 

[jasoncran]

now then the law was used as a tool to show us that we by nature are imperfect and that also by its nature couldnt cleanse us. i do hope that you all see that joe doesnt deny this.

what he is saying and trying to show you that faith with works is the way.

im sure you wouldnt call someone who goes to the local calvinist/arminist church and prays some sinner's prayer and says im a christian and never ever shows up again in any church and bears no fruit as evidence of a changed heart.

what God did with the law is to show us that it was so easy to follow and do, yet our sinning heart (most wicked) couldnt do that. so he had to send us a savior to fulfill the payment of the law and make a new convenant the the laws fulfillment and death was the way to the new way unto salvation and neither of which requires perfection. we are so wicked that we couldnt even do the easy stuff and god didnt lay on hard things.

our hearts were stony and God used isreal to reach the lost, they failed he knew they would. so he went to the gentiles., christs blood was the means to do that as well.

 

[francisdesales]

hmm i add this

from jonah and he preached to the nation of assyria. sworn enemies of the nation of isreal and judah.

they repented. why didnt jonah go at first?

he even tells us why.

jonah

Yes, that is a wonderful example of God granting mercy to even the wicked who have been moved to repent. No perfection required. Who does Jonah's attitude at this remind you of, being upset that God is so merciful and no perfection is required? Ah, no need to name names...

God does not desire death, but conversion and repentance.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

i dont get the idea of those that disagree with you. i really dont. did they miss that part theres even the common worship song.

it called get this

his mercy endureth forever. go figure and i posted the very verse.

 

[francisdesales]

now then the law was used as a tool to show us that we by nature are imperfect and that also by its nature couldnt cleanse us. i do hope that you all see that joe doesnt deny this.

Perhaps there is an aspect of that in salvation through Jesus Christ, by I am stating that it is secondary to the motive of Loving Mercy and Unconditional Love. Certainly, we absolutely need God to cleanse us. That is beyond argument. But my point is that this cleansing is dependent upon God HIMSELF and His gracious mercy (granted even to Assyrians...), not a perfect Law follower earning it... Christ's perfect obedience, learned through His suffering on the cross (according to Hebrews) brought a reaction of unestimitable mercy from the Father. Not out of necessity, but out of Love. Mercy will CERTAINLY be granted to the righteous, if it is the Father's Will.

The difference here is how we approach the act of salvation. Is it a work that is due wages or is it a free gift from God? Paul clearly says it is a gift from God - He doesn't state that Jesus' perfect Law following earned salvation, but that THROUGH that work, God granted, by His will, a gift.

The prayer of a righteous man is truly effective, wrote James. Jesus prayer to the Father includes His entire LIFE, but culminates with His utter self-sacrifice of love on the cross - the perfect intercessory prayer to the Father, one that begs the Father to grant mercy - just as the Father offered to grant mercy to the Sodomites through the intercessions of Abraham. God is merciful in working through the vicarious suffering of His faithful servant. But rest assured, this is not the payment of wages. Prayer is a REQUEST, not a DEMAND that God fulfill His promise... God is only "bound" by His nature, not by the Law or human ideas of Justice.

I hope this clarifies matters. The perfect Law Follower ALSO calls upon the mercy of God to grant salvation. Who could think that He would refuse His Obedient Son???!!! It remains a gift to humankind through Jesus, not something that Christ demanded.

Glory to the Merciful God...

Regards