Salvation by faith alone/only?

[lovely]

I am simply pointing out that the Law of Moses is a written code of laws given to Jews and Jews only. So no Gentile can do the "works" of the Law of Moses precisely because it is a set of laws given to Jews only. It is clear that Paul believes this - in the following text he explains that if salvation were based on the Law of Moses, only Jews could be saved:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one

And let me be clear: Just because I choose to believe Paul in Romans 2 where he asserts that final salvation is based on "good works" does not mean that I do not also believe that we are justified by faith.

I will try to explain why the "faith vs works" is a false choice in a later post.

I understand your position on the 'Law' of Moses and I agree. I also understand your position on Romans 2 already, and knowing more about your position based on previous discussions, I know now that you are not saying that we are NOT justified by faith. I guess I am just trying to understand your definition of good works better. I would say faith-works or love commands, because of the coupling with faith and the out-working of love...It seems like you think that they must be connected. I don't want to get off topic, but I am just trying to be clear as I read along. Do you believe good works can only be done in faith, or can they be done apart from faith?

 

[Drew]

Do you believe good works can only be done in faith, or can they be done apart from faith?

Thanks for this key question.

I want to be crystal clear about this: I believe that saving good works can only be done through the action of the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is given as an act of pure grace, by faith alone.

Do you get a sense of where I am coming from now?

 

[lovely]

Thanks for this key question.

I want to be crystal clear about this: I believe that saving good works can only be done through the action of the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is given as an act of pure grace, by faith alone.

Do you get a sense of where I am coming from now?

Yes, I do.

 

[lovely]

Oh, and I should add, I COMPLETELY agree. I hate that I have such a hard time understanding you sometimes...it must be your accent. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

Agree - In Romans this chunk of Romans 2, Paul has divided humanity into two groups: (1) those who "persist in doing good" and are given eternal life; and (2) those who "do evil" and are subject to wrath.


I agree - so if they are in the first group, they are saved, as Paul says, according to what they have done:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I see nothing in the rest of your post that comprises an argument as to why we should note take 2:6-7 just as it reads.

Be careful of begging the question - you appear to see "salvation by faith" as something that is not open to challenge. Well, that is precisely what we are debating.

The text says what it says!!! Whatever else is the case, we have to accept that those who are given eternal life are given that gift based on the good works their lives have manifested.

Please answer my two questions from post 137.

Okay - Eternal life....agreed.

What have they done? They believed in God (faith).

It goes without saying that only those who believe in God will PERSIST in doing good.

How can I say that? Without faith they will always TURN BACK.

He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others; Because they turned back from him, and would not consider any of his ways:

To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

And most important...

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

They aren't good deeds without faith. Therefore it is FAITH, and those who believe are ordained to do good deeds. This applies to mankind from the very beginning. We are justified by faith and faith alone. Good deeds follow after.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks for this key question.

I want to be crystal clear about this: I believe that saving good works can only be done through the action of the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is given as an act of pure grace, by faith alone.

Do you get a sense of where I am coming from now?

I hope you're coming from the position that good deeds follow faith as God has ordained.

Which puts Romans 4 out of the metaphor category and back into the literal. It isn't works that justify man before God...but faith.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Drew]

Okay - Eternal life....agreed.

What have they done? They believed in God (faith).

I agree that people who get eternal life must have placed faith in God but this is simply not what Paul is saying in the Romans 2 text. Here is the text yet again:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Does Paul say this?:

6 God “will repay each person according to their faith.â€[a] 7 To those who had faith, he will give eternal life.

No!

He writes what he writes! Eternal life is granted according to, yes, what they have done.

Now I am aware your tradition has trouble with this, but it is simply what Paul says.

Please answer the questions in post 137. They are clear questions, so please answer them.

It goes without saying that only those who believe in God will PERSIST in doing good.

Agree. But Paul says what he says - the eternal life that these people get is given to them based on what they have done.

They aren't good deeds without faith. Therefore it is FAITH, and those who believe are ordained to do good deeds.

Again, I heartily agree. So why do you not accept what Paul says in Romans 2 - that eternal life is granted according the good works that follow true faith?

This applies to mankind from the very beginning. We are justified by faith and faith alone. Good deeds follow after.

Not really. While faith is a necessary pre-condition to good works, and even though good works will always follow in the wake of true faith, Paul is crystal clear - eternal life is granted according to good works.

Here is the text again. Let it speak for itself:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Drew]

I hope you're coming from the position that good deeds follow faith as God has ordained.

Your hope is indeed fulfilled. This is exactly what I am saying.

But Paul means what he says:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Final salvation is clearly awarded based on good deeds.

You appear to see faith and works as an "either / or" proposition in respect to salvation. I suggest Paul does not see things this way.

 

[Mike]

Yes I do.


How does this challenge my premise? I am the one who is taking the text "as it reads" - we are given eternal life - that is exactly what Paul says - according to what we have done. This is, again, exactly what Paul says.

I can claim that we are given "additional rewards" as well. You, on the other hand, appear to have the task of explaining why Paul does not mean what he clearly asserts - that eternal life is granted according to "what we have done".

That is simply what the text actually says.

Drew, I'm honestly not intending to debate this point. I've shared how I read the meaning behind this verse, and I'm not trying to "trick" you into playing into my hands. This is how I read it, and I'm not trying to prove you wrong in the way you read it.

I noticed you didn't address each point in my post. Please, let's let down our guard and talk to each other. Please share, if you care to, if you believe rewards in heaven will mean that some will enter it having done less good than others. I'm trying to understand how good deeds can earn salvation, yet those with varying amounts of good deeds will have it. (less rewards in heaven)_

Let's both try and share what we see in this without trying to pin the other down, okay?

 

[reba]

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Your hope is indeed fulfilled. This is exactly what I am saying.

But Paul means what he says:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Final salvation is clearly awarded based on good deeds.

You appear to see faith and works as an "either / or" proposition in respect to salvation. I suggest Paul does not see things this way.

For the life of me, Drew, I can't see what kind of a distinction you're making here. It's as clear as a bell to me. Yes, Paul means what he's saying....it isn't the mystery you seem to think it is. It's as if you've been stuck on this one verse for years and you don't go on to see Paul's continuing explanation. For instance, that good deeds follow faith. He's explaining about two types of people, which you admit. He talks of the ramifications for each group. Then he goes on to define the particulars of the basics. He's explaining in simple steps from Chapter 1...then builds to Chapter 2, builds again to 3 and so on. It's not right to get stuck in the middle of someone's explanation the way you do. It's like explaining to your children about sex and the kid gets hung up on the planting the seed part...refusing to hear the explanation of what you mean by the seed.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I'm honestly not intending to debate this point. I've shared how I read the meaning behind this verse,..

This appears to be a way of saying "the text really does not mean what it says, but means something else". What do you mean by a "meaning behind this verse"? I agree that there are a lot of other things Paul believes that relate to this text.

But it is what it is - a clear, unambiguous statement that final salvation is based on good works.

I noticed you didn't address each point in my post. Please, let's let down our guard and talk to each other. Please share, if you care to, if you believe rewards in heaven will mean that some will enter it having done less good than others.

Yes, I do believe this - some will enter heaven, having done less good works than others. I am not sure how this changes the clear statement Paul makes that eternal life is granted according to good works.

I'm trying to understand how good deeds can earn salvation, yet those with varying amounts of good deeds will have it. (less rewards in heaven)_

I have no answer to give. But I will re-assert: Paul says what he says -final salvation is according to good works.

 

[Drew]

For the life of me, Drew, I can't see what kind of a distinction you're making here. It's as clear as a bell to me. Yes, Paul means what he's saying....it isn't the mystery you seem to think it is. It's as if you've been stuck on this one verse for years and you don't go on to see Paul's continuing explanation.

If you do not answer the questions in post 137, I am afraid I will have to move on.

I am not trying to be mean, I am just "forcing" you to face the clear content of these two verses. Paul could not possibly be more clear: he is saying that eternal life is granted according to "what we have done".

Do you believe this?

If not, are you suggesting that Paul is mistaken here?

If Paul is not mistaken, can you explain why he would write something he does not believe to be true.

 

[glorydaz]

If you do not answer the questions in post 137, I am afraid I will have to move on.

I am not trying to be mean, I am just "forcing" you to face the clear content of these two verses. Paul could not possibly be more clear: he is saying that eternal life is granted according to "what we have done".

Do you believe this?

If not, are you suggesting that Paul is mistaken here?

If Paul is not mistaken, can you explain why he would write something he does not believe to be true.

I did answer your questions in post 165. I thought I was pretty clear.

 

[Drew]

It's as if you've been stuck on this one verse for years and you don't go on to see Paul's continuing explanation. For instance, that good deeds follow faith.

I have been crystal clear about this - I do indeed believe that good deeds follow faith. But that does not mean that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2 - that final salvation is based on good deeds.

 

[reba]

My salvation was bought by the Lamb of God my works will not gain my salvation. Nothing i can do will ever compare to the price paid on the cross.


Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Drew]

I did answer your questions in post 165. I thought I was pretty clear.

I apologize - you did answer.

But you disagree with Paul. Paul says that eternal life is based on good works, you say its based on faith.

Where do we go from here?

 

[glorydaz]

I apologize - you did answer.

But you disagree with Paul. Paul says that eternal life is based on good works, you say its based on faith.

Where do we go from here?

No problem, Drew.

I really don't believe I disagree with Paul, though.

In fact, I think I understand what he means better now than I did when we first discussed this verse over a year ago.

Paul says, "To them who by "patient continuance" in well doing..(KJV)" or "to those, indeed, who in "continuance" of a good work..(Young's)" The key, and you're the one who pointed it out to me, is that persistance, "continuance"...rather than the "turning back" as per the scriptures I presented in post 165. Is that even possible for a man who does not believe in God? Paul doesn't say eternal life is based on good works, but that a continuance in well doing is the outward manifestion of faith.

MOTIVE. An unbeliever may do good deeds to please men, but will he continue in them when men aren't looking? Therefore, faith in God is a prerequisite to man's not turning back to his wickedness. Faith in God is a prerequisite to doing well. That's why Paul only lists two groups of people here. One group believes in God and tries to follow their conscience, while the other doesn't believe, so has no reason to patiently continue to do good. We show our faith by our good deeds as it tells us in James 2.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I am afraid that Paul is quite clear - final salvation is indeed based on good works. Here is the text again:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Question: In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?

My answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, please?



Question: In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?

My answer is "what they have done" or "persistence in doing good".

What your answer, please?

When we read what Paul actually writes - and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.

Drew says-----God “will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Grubal says-----These are those who received Christ as Lord and Savior by faith, and have been "Born-again. The one's that didn't receive Christ are the one's that will not get eternal life...

Drew say's-----In this text, what is the "thing that is given"?

Grubal-----Eternal life.

Drew says----- In this text, what is the basis for getting the thing that is given?

Grubal----- The basis is a combination of the "characteristics" that are present in the "Born-again Spirit filled Christian...

Drew says-----When we read what Paul actually writes and not what our traditions tell us - we see that, indeed, final salvation is based on how we actually lived our lives.

Grubal-----Salvation is based upon the "finished" work of Christ on the cross...We cannot depend on our works to please God. The Bible says, faith is what pleases God, not works. Works are "secondary" to our faith. And we only bring forth fruit/works because of the Holy Spirit that indwells within us...

May I ask, what denomination your affiliated with ?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No problem, Drew.

I really don't believe I disagree with Paul, though.

In fact, I think I understand what he means better now than I did when we first discussed this verse over a year ago.

Paul says, "To them who by "patient continuance" in well doing..(KJV)" or "to those, indeed, who in "continuance" of a good work..(Young's)" The key, and you're the one who pointed it out to me, is that persistance, "continuance"...rather than the "turning back" as per the scriptures I presented in post 165. Is that even possible for a man who does not believe in God? Paul doesn't say eternal life is based on good works, but that a continuance in well doing is the outward manifestion of faith.

MOTIVE. An unbeliever may do good deeds to please men, but will he continue in them when men aren't looking? Therefore, faith in God is a prerequisite to man's not turning back to his wickedness. Faith in God is a prerequisite to doing well. That's why Paul only lists two groups of people here. One group believes in God and tries to follow their conscience, while the other doesn't believe, so has no reason to patiently continue to do good. We show our faith by our good deeds as it tells us in James 2.

AMEN!!!