Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Sinthesis]

We were redeemed from the Wrath of God....therefore it would be God.
I realize liberals have a hard time with this, but it's God's design, not mine.

While God is Love, He is also Wrath. The Righteous requirements of the Law had to be met.

God's wrath is against all ungodliness and unrighteousnes of men.


We are saved from God's wrath...only by the BLOOD.


Lest you claim this is only the law of Moses, you might want to reconsider it before you speak.

Where do you get the idea that "The Righteous requirements of the Law had to be met"? What are they?

 

[francisdesales]

We were redeemed from the Wrath of God....therefore it would be God.

God paid God??? God paid God by having His Son killed - and nowhere do we find any Law or necessity that God's satisfaction be satisfied in this manner...

It is a theological construct without any Scriptural evidence.

It is St. Anselm's Theory of Atonement. Sounded good in the Middle Ages, but it is an incomplete theory. And I mention, theory, again, in case you didn't get that.

Further study indicates that the Scriptures do not MENTION such a need for perfect satisfaction by God. It is based upon human ideas of God's demand for perfect justice BEFORE God turns to man!!! Analysis indicates that God does not require ANYTHING BUT REPENTANCE (and His Will to grant mercy) before He grants mercy. NOWHERE does the Bible even foreshadow such a requirement of perfect satisfaction BEFORE mercy is granted.

Sacrifice is a requirement needed by men, not by God. God commands it in the Mosaic Law for MAN'S own good and needs. God has told us He does not NEED sacrifices of blood!!!

Hear, O my people, and I will speak: O Israel, and I will testify to thee: I am God, thy God.

8I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices: and thy burnt offerings are always in my sight.
9I will not take calves out of thy house: nor he goats out of thy flocks.
10For all the beasts of the woods are mine: the cattle on the hills, and the oxen.
11I know all the fowls of the air: and with me is the beauty of the field.
12If I should be hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
13Shall I eat the flesh of bullocks? or shall I drink the blood of goats?
14Offer to God the sacrifice of praise: and pay thy vows to the most High. 15And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. Psalms 49:7-15 (DRA)

I realize liberals have a hard time with this, but it's God's design, not mine.

Must you resort to name-calling? I am not a liberal... I just happen to believe that one's doctrine should have SOME foundation in the Scriptures.

And if this is God's design, surely, you can offer evidence in Sacred Scriptures???

While God is Love, He is also Wrath. The Righteous requirements of the Law had to be met.

You don't know what wrath is, I think. Read and meditate on that passage of Scriptures. HOW IS GOD'S WRATH REALIZED? With bolts of lightning?

No, God allows them to destroy themselves in their own passions, allowing the consequences of their free will actions to take effect.

And which righteous requirements of the Law had to be met? I have asked you this dozens of times, and you just keep repeating it over and over ad nauseum. Could you please cite some Scriptures? Is that too much to ask?

We are saved from God's wrath...only by the BLOOD.

You have a rather interesting view of God. Non-Biblical and interesting. Is this a Halloween joke?

Romans 5 does not have ANY statement that we can only be saved by BLOOD!!!

It says we are saved by a sacrifice of blood. Not that it was required or that we could only be saved by that blood.

You have an interesting ability to add your own words to what Scriptures say, don't you...

Lest you claim this is only the law of Moses, you might want to reconsider it before you speak.

Not sure what you are trying to prove - how exactly does Galatians 4 tell us that God needs a perfect law follower or that God needs complete satisfaction???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Actually, Paul brought it up, and you challenged me when I quoted Paul. Just so we keep the record straight. ;)

You cited Paul because you thought it supported your idea that God had to be paid.

So yes, you brought it up. As you said. You quoted Paul, I challenged your incorrect view.

What you don't understand is that God is not paying another. The payment is the payment of Love. Such is not paid to another. It is the sacrifice that the lover makes for the sake of the beloved.

People who have loved know about this price. Lovers give of themselves. It is a price - to die to self. People who are in relationships out of law or convenience or just trying to suck the life out of someone else for their own gain don't know about it, I guess...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The blood sprinkled on the door posts at the passover was not given to anyone, either, but it kept the death angel at bay.

That had nothing to do with what we are talking about, does it...

God granted mercy and did not hold punishment in abeyance - allowing Israel to be free. No satisfaction required. The angel of death was not sent to punish the Jews. Nor did he withhold punishment that God never intended to give to the Jews.

The blood sprinkling on the Ark and the Mercy Seat and even the people are but types of Christ's work on the cross.

True. But not for your reasons...

They point to the willing sacrifice of Christ - Who is our High Priest. A priest intecedes for the sake of the people, does he not??? And this is exactly what "Paul" writes in Hebrews:

And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: But this, for that he continueth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood, Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:23-26


THAT is the purpose of Christ's work. To make INTERCESSION for us. Not to demand payment! Why are you making this about wages and works? Just like any priest, Christ came to intercede for the people. Naturally, being perfect and holy, His prayers were more "effective" (the prayers of a righteous man are truly effective, said James)

If you don't actually read these verses, let me know and I'll stop posting them.

I have tried to answer every one of your posts. When they include Scriptures, I point out why they are being improperly interpreted or lack support of your theme. Please spare me that trash talk.

Hebrews 9 talks about what Christ did, not the demand for blood. I have never stated that Christ did not shed His blood for mankind. My concern is your non-Scriptural idea that God HAD to have blood from a perfect law follower before He granted mercy and forgiveness (even if that perfect law follower would do so in the future in time).

You will need to come up with some scripture that points to such a satisfaction as necessary and required, not Scriptures that point to what was done - as it turns out - out of love and self-sacrifice, rather than law following and the requirements of some vague notion of human justice.

The sprinkling of blood was a symbol for several things...preservation on leaving Egypt, the Covenant, Atonement, etc. Here we see the New Covenant.

No problems with that. The New Covenant was not based upon any requirement of satisfaction of God's Wrath or Justice. It was part of God's plan to save us, not a plan of legal mumbo jumbo.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Where do you get the idea that "The Righteous requirements of the Law had to be met"? What are they?

God commands are His Law. This is not in reference to the ceremonial law, although that, too, was fulfilled by Christ. It's the requirements of the moral law of God which requires holiness and righteousness for life and death for disobedience.

His requirements of man have never changed.

In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of God's law for us. What man could not do...for all men sin and come short of the Glory of God, God has done for us by sending His Son.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

God commands are His Law. This is not in reference to the ceremonial law, although that, too, was fulfilled by Christ. It's the requirements of the moral law of God which requires holiness and righteousness for life and death for disobedience.

The Law does not demand perfection.

When men fail, God expects repentance. God forgives men upon that repentance, WITHOUT any pre-requisite of perfection from anyone. God does not require "satisfaction" to fulfill a notion of perfect justice.

Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of God's law for us.

Where does the Law state we are to be perfect before God ? Where do the Jews of the OT recognize that requirement, understanding that "some day", God would send a perfect law follower to satisfy "the law"?

I really do not understand how God is bound by "the law" could you explain that with Scriptures, please?

 

[for_his_glory]

Faith is very important for Gods salvation to be present in our lives. Faith allows us to believe and trust in that which we can not see, but to know through evidence of the word of God by hearing and that forgiveness of sin, grace and mercy only comes from God and works in our lives as we humble ourselves before the Lord to allow God to renew our inner man as we surrender all of our self to Him for regeneration of mind, body and soul.

Our faith in Christ only increases by hearing the word of God through studying his word and applying it to our lives to know for a surety of what Jesus spoke to us is truth. It only takes faith the size of a mustard seed to allow Gods grace to pardon our sins as we repent and to allow mercy to love us unconditionally.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by our works or good deeds that save us for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(for more on Salvation and faith please visit my website listed below and study the classes I have on these two subjects)

 

[glorydaz]

The Law does not demand perfection.

When men fail, God expects repentance. God forgives men upon that repentance, WITHOUT any pre-requisite of perfection from anyone. God does not require "satisfaction" to fulfill a notion of perfect justice.



Where does the Law state we are to be perfect before God ? Where do the Jews of the OT recognize that requirement, understanding that "some day", God would send a perfect law follower to satisfy "the law"?

I really do not understand how God is bound by "the law" could you explain that with Scriptures, please?

As you know, we serve a Righteous and Just God..."all his ways are judgment."

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

His ways are not our ways, and He tells us the wages of sin is death.

The first sin has been committed...we see the promised redeemer, and the first blood sacrifice (those coats of skins meant an animal died, and Adam and Eve were clothed - their covering)

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

God renews this blood covenant with Abraham and Moses...all picturing the future atonement on the cross.

All the ritual purification rights practiced by the Jews were a picture of the Spotless Lamb of God (Jesus Christ).

It isn't that we are to be perfect...God knew that was impossible for man. That's why Jesus had to come as the Perfect One who met all of God's Righteous requirements for us.

Now, the righteouosness of the law is fulfilled in those with faith in Him.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

As you know, we serve a Righteous and Just God..."all his ways are judgment."

Agree. Even if that means that God forgives men for repenting without requiring compensation or satisfaction. If God sees that as just, it is just. If Jesus tells a parable about forgiving an unpayable debt (wicked servant) or paying the same wages to even the guy who shows up during the last hour of the day, it is just, in God's eyes.

Too many people over the ages have tried to discern the "mind of God" with the idea of 'satisfaction'.

His ways are not our ways, and He tells us the wages of sin is death.

Agree. See above. WHO would think that paying a guy for a day's wage for showing up the last hour is "just"? Interesting how God doesn't worry about time cards and perfection. Who would teach "if someone requires you to go a mile, go two miles". Or "turn the other cheek" v "an eye for an eye"? Yes, God's justice is certainly different, so this idea of a requirement of 'perfect justice can only be satisfied by a perfect law follower' doesn't cut it...

The first sin has been committed...we see the promised redeemer, and the first blood sacrifice (those coats of skins meant an animal died, and Adam and Eve were clothed - their covering)

???

While I agree that Adam and Eve committed the first sin, and that required Atonement with the Second Adam as the Mediator between God and man, the focus on the 'animal skins' is not there in Scriptures. It is mentioned in passing. Atonement does not require blood in the absolute sense.

God is interested in building the shattered relationship between Himself and man. The first step is reconciliation. The Scriptures note there is no reparation demanded, no satisfaction or compensation from a perfect representative. What Scripture DO note is that reconciliation must be asked for specifically and deliberately... I would be citing huge sections of the Gospel to prove my point:

For example:

Jesus eats with sinners and tax collectors, telling His critics at the feast of Levi that Jesus came to call sinners - there was no requirement to pay compensation from anyone (Mat 9:13).

The parable of the lost sheep (Mat 18:12) has the same message. The shepherd (Jesus) sets out in search, without prior conditions.

When Peter asked "How many times must I forgive my brother", Jesus is not about satisfaction or "justice", but to forgive 'seventy seven' (Mat 18:21)

The paralytic lowered through the roof. Not only was he cured, but he was forgiven of sins without any prior conditions. The approach taken by his friends show the seriousness of his desire to be healed (Mark 2:1-12)

The parable of the wicked servant (Mat 18:23-35) is very clear on the attitudes of God the Father. NO prior compensation or satisfaction demanded. He was granted forgivness upon request!

The sinful woman who anointed Jesus' feet. (Luke 7:36) was forgiven simply on the strength of her expressive show of love. No perfect satisfaction required for all the wrong she did in sinning.

The prodigal Son parable is well known. Must I also relate how the Father forgives the son who lives a wasteful life, just by asking forgiveness???

The good thief on the cross. Inevitably brought up on 'faith v works' threads, is another prime example of God's forgiveness. He merely asks for acceptance and is promised Paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

The woman taken in adultery, (John 8:1-11), another example of unconditional forgiveness.

Peter's three fold profession of love of Jesus after the resurrection is quite enough, in the mind of Jesus, to provide forgiveness and tell Peter to "feed my sheep" (John 21:15-19)

There is ONE case of satisfaction in the Gospel, but it is offered by man to God! It is not demanded! Zacchaeus promises to provide four fold restitution, but there is no requirement from God to do this! It is MAN'S desire to show the sorrow and conversion taking place. (Luke 19:1-10)

Sacrifice offered by man to God represents inner conversion, the giving of one's "life", as representated by the animal. God does not desire the animal's life or blood, per sec. He desires the inner conversion. The serious, sincere attempt at moral conversion and change.

I think this PARTIAL data from the Gospels is sufficient to show that you are way off base and do not know the power of the Gospel. You do not know the power of love, but prefer to focus on laws that somehow bind God.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Agree. Even if that means that God forgives men for repenting without requiring compensation or satisfaction. If God sees that as just, it is just. If Jesus tells a parable about forgiving an unpayable debt (wicked servant) or paying the same wages to even the guy who shows up during the last hour of the day, it is just, in God's eyes.

Even those who repent, must still come by faith to Christ. The Christ who did pay the debt for those sins with His blood.

You aren't saying that man only needs to repent and that satisfies God's righteousness are you?
Does repentance remove the penalty of sin? If so, why did Jesus come at all?

Sacrifice offered by man to God represents inner conversion, the giving of one's "life", as representated by the animal. God does not desire the animal's life or blood, per sec. He desires the inner conversion. The serious, sincere attempt at moral conversion and change.

I think this PARTIAL data from the Gospels is sufficient to show that you are way off base and do not know the power of the Gospel. You do not know the power of love, but prefer to focus on laws that somehow bind God.

Regards

The power of the Gospel takes away our sin?

The power of love takes away our sin?

Remember, God's ways are not ours. He has designated remission of sins by blood...not repentance or love.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The high priest doesn't redeem with love or repentance...it's only the blood.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We are redeemed by the blood. There really is no getting around this, Joe. Nothing else would satisfy the righteous requirements of God's Law.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

[francisdesales]

Even those who repent, must still come by faith to Christ. The Christ who did pay the debt for those sins with His blood.

Yes, and I repeat again and again, what was paid was not a requirement of any law or idea of justice. It was an act of love to repair the shattered relationship. The Offended can choose how this will take place. The Offended is not bound by some rules before He is enabled to share in relationship again...

You aren't saying that man only needs to repent and that satisfies God's righteousness are you?

God's righteousness was not effected by the fall.

Man's repentance must be true and sincere, part of a conversion. That is all God requires - according to Scriptures.

Does repentance remove the penalty of sin?

Not at all. The consequences of sin remain, even AFTER one considers the work of Christ on the cross. Original sin's consequences, such as concupiscence (temptation) remains. However, it is God's way that we must struggle in the spiritual life. God has given us a means, but difficulty and suffering are not removed. Romans 8 tells us we must suffer if we want to be glorified.

If so, why did Jesus come at all?

To show forth the Love of God for mankind. He died for us, no greater love than that. All the citations on blood tell us this - the precious value given for our sake. But there is no indication that the REASONING behind the shedding of blood was to satisfy a blood-thirsty God.

The crucifixion is Christ's High Priest prayer to the Father for the sake of all mankind.

The power of the Gospel takes away our sin?

God's free will gift takes away sin.

The power of love takes away our sin?

Yes.

Remember, God's ways are not ours. He has designated remission of sins by blood...not repentance or love.

It is not "our ways" that love removes sin. It is "our way" that the offended is paid back in kind. Your descriptions are human ways, glorydaz. God doesn't need to be satisfied with a perfect offering. God is WAY BEYOND human ideas of justice and that need to be massaged of hurt or angry feelings. You are thinking about what a human king would desire, rather than the God of the universe who transcends all such ideas of "necessity".

I gave you a long list of the teachings of Christ on the matter. Ignore them if you will. That's your perogative. But you are kicking at the goad, my friend.

The high priest doesn't redeem with love or repentance...

The blood represents his inner disposition. Blood in of itself has no "higher value" to God. He has said that He does not DESIRE the blood of goats. He owns them already. Shall I repost Ps 49 (DRA) again?

The priest is the mediator between the God and the people. He offers sacrifice to God for the purpose of interceding to God. God can't be "bought off" with a piece of a sheep. Get real. God desires our inner dispositions. He Loves us. He is not interested in the value of sheep meat, so as to eat it!!!

Think about it. What does God need with blood??? He is a spiritual Being!!!

it's only the blood.

When speaking of the Law, yes, the blood reflects the repentant sinner's desire to reconnect with God. THAT is the reason for the blood. It is a sacramental sign of one's inner disposition of sorrow, worship and awe. God is not picking up blood from the altar to use "upstairs"!

We are redeemed by the blood.

Not out of necessity, but because Christ died for love of us.

There really is no getting around this, Joe. Nothing else would satisfy the righteous requirements of God's Law.

You are obviously joking

There is no getting around THIS fact. You cannot back up your claims with Scriptures. Just repeating it over and over means little and it doesn't make it true. Your citations merely say what I have already pointed out. Christ died for love of mankind. That has value. But not as a ransom or satisfaction. Not out of some "righteous requirement" that you have failed to prove from Scriptures.

 

[francisdesales]

We are redeemed by the blood. There really is no getting around this, Joe. Nothing else would satisfy the righteous requirements of God's Law.

Oh, and I notice how you completely ignored these verses. Just to remind you, they are the words of Jesus Christ.

Shalll we believe Glorydaz or Jesus, forum?

Jesus eats with sinners and tax collectors, telling His critics at the feast of Levi that Jesus came to call sinners - there was no requirement to pay compensation from anyone (Mat 9:13).

The parable of the lost sheep (Mat 18:12) has the same message. The shepherd (Jesus) sets out in search, without prior conditions.

When Peter asked "How many times must I forgive my brother", Jesus is not about satisfaction or "justice", but to forgive 'seventy seven' (Mat 18:21)

The paralytic lowered through the roof. Not only was he cured, but he was forgiven of sins without any prior conditions. The approach taken by his friends show the seriousness of his desire to be healed (Mark 2:1-12)

The parable of the wicked servant (Mat 18:23-35) is very clear on the attitudes of God the Father. NO prior compensation or satisfaction demanded. He was granted forgivness upon request!

The sinful woman who anointed Jesus' feet. (Luke 7:36) was forgiven simply on the strength of her expressive show of love. No perfect satisfaction required for all the wrong she did in sinning.

The prodigal Son parable is well known. Must I also relate how the Father forgives the son who lives a wasteful life, just by asking forgiveness???

The good thief on the cross. Inevitably brought up on 'faith v works' threads, is another prime example of God's forgiveness. He merely asks for acceptance and is promised Paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

The woman taken in adultery, (John 8:1-11), another example of unconditional forgiveness.

Peter's three fold profession of love of Jesus after the resurrection is quite enough, in the mind of Jesus, to provide forgiveness and tell Peter to "feed my sheep" (John 21:15-19)

There is ONE case of satisfaction in the Gospel, but it is offered by man to God! It is not demanded! Zacchaeus promises to provide four fold restitution, but there is no requirement from God to do this! It is MAN'S desire to show the sorrow and conversion taking place. (Luke 19:1-10)

 

[jasoncran]

Oh, and I notice how you completely ignored these verses. Just to remind you, they are the words of Jesus Christ.

Shalll we believe Glorydaz or Jesus, forum?

Jesus eats with sinners and tax collectors, telling His critics at the feast of Levi that Jesus came to call sinners - there was no requirement to pay compensation from anyone (Mat 9:13).

The parable of the lost sheep (Mat 18:12) has the same message. The shepherd (Jesus) sets out in search, without prior conditions.

When Peter asked "How many times must I forgive my brother", Jesus is not about satisfaction or "justice", but to forgive 'seventy seven' (Mat 18:21)

The paralytic lowered through the roof. Not only was he cured, but he was forgiven of sins without any prior conditions. The approach taken by his friends show the seriousness of his desire to be healed (Mark 2:1-12)

The parable of the wicked servant (Mat 18:23-35) is very clear on the attitudes of God the Father. NO prior compensation or satisfaction demanded. He was granted forgivness upon request!

The sinful woman who anointed Jesus' feet. (Luke 7:36) was forgiven simply on the strength of her expressive show of love. No perfect satisfaction required for all the wrong she did in sinning.

The prodigal Son parable is well known. Must I also relate how the Father forgives the son who lives a wasteful life, just by asking forgiveness???

The good thief on the cross. Inevitably brought up on 'faith v works' threads, is another prime example of God's forgiveness. He merely asks for acceptance and is promised Paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

The woman taken in adultery, (John 8:1-11), another example of unconditional forgiveness.

Peter's three fold profession of love of Jesus after the resurrection is quite enough, in the mind of Jesus, to provide forgiveness and tell Peter to "feed my sheep" (John 21:15-19)

There is ONE case of satisfaction in the Gospel, but it is offered by man to God! It is not demanded! Zacchaeus promises to provide four fold restitution, but there is no requirement from God to do this! It is MAN'S desire to show the sorrow and conversion taking place. (Luke 19:1-10)

aka contrition. the point joe is making is that christ death was to change the law and make the new way of being forgiven vs the death of animals. god's mercy hasnt changed just whom he granted it too lived in small region vs the entire earth.


man had to come to isreal to be saved so to speak vs now god sent his son to get to man .and now man doesnt have to go far to get into the kingdom. it doesnt get simplier than that.

and i agree with the price thing joe. the cost paid wasnt to satan its just limited analogy that we use to show how much christ loved us.

 

[Gazelle]

According to the Law...

God is not bound by that.

Oh he most certainly is! It was God who made that "law"...

Leviticus 17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: andI have given it to you upon the altar to makean atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

I would have to urge you also to study the atonement sacrifices required by God for the remission of their sin. The Old Testament people performed those sacrifices looking in faith towards the cross, the redemption by their Messiah, just as we look back to the cross, in faith.

 

[jasoncran]

Oh he most certainly is! It was God who made that "law"...

Leviticus 17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: andI have given it to you upon the altar to makean atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

I would have to urge you also to study the atonement sacrifices required by God for the remission of their sin. The Old Testament people performed those sacrifices looking in faith towards the cross, the redemption by their Messiah, just as we look back to the cross, in faith.

ok can you tell my why the lord forgave the nivanahites?they didnt do any sacrifices just sat in ashes and torn their shirts and fasted.

something hezekiah did and also josiah is more famous for with ripping of his shirt in repentance.

 

[glorydaz]

aka contrition. the point joe is making is that christ death was to change the law and make the new way of being forgiven vs the death of animals. god's mercy hasnt changed just whom he granted it too lived in small region vs the entire earth.


man had to come to isreal to be saved so to speak vs now god sent his son to get to man .and now man doesnt have to go far to get into the kingdom. it doesnt get simplier than that.

and i agree with the price thing joe. the cost paid wasnt to satan its just limited analogy that we use to show how much christ loved us.

Are you saying, as Joe is, that Jesus didn't have to come and shed His blood in order to save us, that God didn't require a spotless lamb?

Are you telling me that Jesus didn't have to die?

That He could have just Shed forth His Love and not His Blood?

I sure wish someone would have told God that.

 

[glorydaz]

ok can you tell my why the lord forgave the nivanahites?they didnt do any sacrifices just sat in ashes and torn their shirts and fasted.

something hezekiah did and also josiah is more famous for with ripping of his shirt in repentance.

They repented, Jason. Mercy is not dispensed until repentance is shown. As I said, when you see God granting mercy it's because they have repented.

Mercy is withheld punishment. Punishment comes at the Judgment.


Grace, on the other hand is unmerited favor. We're saved by grace through faith.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh he most certainly is! It was God who made that "law"...

Leviticus 17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: andI have given it to you upon the altar to makean atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

I would have to urge you also to study the atonement sacrifices required by God for the remission of their sin. The Old Testament people performed those sacrifices looking in faith towards the cross, the redemption by their Messiah, just as we look back to the cross, in faith.

AMEN, Gazelle. "The life of the flesh is in the blood..." Without the blood, there is no life.

 

[Sinthesis]

God commands are His Law. This is not in reference to the ceremonial law, although that, too, was fulfilled by Christ. It's the requirements of the moral law of God which requires holiness and righteousness for life and death for disobedience.

Good, so we're not talking about ceremonial law. What are God's commands? Where do you find the "moral law of God which requires holiness and righteousness for life and death for disobedience" in the Bible? Are holiness and righteousness the same as perfection?

His requirements of man have never changed.

What are the "requirements of man" that God has never changed?

Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of God's law for us. What man could not do...for all men sin and come short of the Glory of God, God has done for us by sending His Son.

What "righteous requirements of God's law" did Christ fulfill?
What exactly did His Son do that man could not do?

 

[jasoncran]

They repented, Jason. Mercy is not dispensed until repentance is shown. As I said, when you see God granting mercy it's because they have repented.

Mercy is withheld punishment. Punishment comes at the Judgment.


Grace, on the other hand is unmerited favor. We're saved by grace through faith.

exactly and they didnt do by killing a lamb so god did in forgiving them violate his own law as no man could be forgiven(if you say it your way) without the shedding of blood.

its always been about the heart not how you repented(which sacrifice was needed).