Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[gordon777]

I can read scripture any time that I open my Bible.

When I am considering teaching, I think that it is good for the teacher to make statements about the Bible and to minimize the quoting.

You can even say what the Bible says, in your own words, in a particular instance, and then give a reference that substantiates the statement that you have made.

That is what the false prophets did, to not speak the word of God faithfully.

Now there are false teachers among us, they do the same, not speaking the word of God but this as told: ( feigned words)


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

[gordon777]

gordon777,

I must say that the majority of your posts are convoluted; and I gloss over them most of the time.

You should ask the Holy Ghost to show you a better way to relay your message;

Because as it is I don't think that you are getting your point across to anyone.

I must say this in response to your own words and not scripture.

All the world is deceived by the beast now.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[gordon777]

I am asking again of the owner of this forum and any moderators, it is fully manifested what the forum and all Christian forums are doing, they are the place of welcoming for those teachers as testified above.

Why wont you have any decency to address all of this testimony, and instead see the people who are fulfilling it, making a mockery out of Christianity, supported by yourselves ?

The truth in the Lords Apostles are their afflictions, charity, why allow talk that is disruption, and not be even seen to show it must be stopped, instead all of your years to make the most of it for movement on your forum ?



2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

 

[gordon777]

Justbyfaith, the only reason you can get away with what you are doing, is because of many following wrong, the majority wins, ( only for now) but their time is over when the minority will be the true winners.

No need to reply from you, unless you think you should maximise all you do on other forums on this forum too.

Here is the testimony of God for the end now, show how you deal with it.




Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

James 1;18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

 

[donadams]

Charity seeks not her own, now abides faith, hope, charity, the greatest of these is charity.

For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's. ( without faith, hope, or charity.)




1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Philippians 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.



Through the Spirit we wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Being sober, we put on the breastplate of faith and love, ( charity which seeks not her own.) and for a helmet the hope of salvation. ( we are saved by this hope.)

Jesus Christ in the body of HIs flesh through death, to present us holy and unblameable and unreproveable in HIs sight, ( holy sight) if we continue grounded and settled, to not be moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Christ as a Son over HIs own house, whose house we are, IF, we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm, unto the end.



Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hope and charity?
Are you sure?
I thought it was “faith alone” sola sole nothing added.
Thanks

 

[donadams]

I can read scripture any time that I open my Bible.

When I am considering teaching, I think that it is good for the teacher to make statements about the Bible and to minimize the quoting.

You can even say what the Bible says, in your own words, in a particular instance, and then give a reference that substantiates the statement that you have made.

Your adding to the “Bible alone”
Best leave it closed on the table!

And your interpretation would be an authority, and the “Bible is the only authority”!

Thanks

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those blind leaders, are they destroyed ?

Are those falling into the ditch destroyed? No just 'ditched' for a while.

I now see OSAS believers as a deep++ ase study e how far some people will go in wresting Scripture, as well as in changing reality, just to keep their own faith and doctrine.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

In Daniel's prophecy the little horn seeks to change the times and laws. We see here how that includes the laws of nature itself.

That's what strong delusion includes. Changing reality to fit our own vain imagination. It's the destruction of reason and sensible thought that comes from wresting truth of Scripture into a lie.

It also includes the false promise of becoming gods, as though we have power to change creation itself by our own minds.

That's also what Peter rebukes about people thinking to make Scripture and prophecy of their own by their own will.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

It's a dangerous thing to begin purposely changing God's word into our own for our own salvation and justification. It leads to a reprobate mind, where God Himself will no longer reason with us.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If we don't want the truth of Scripture in our minds, then we don't want the knowledge of God in our hearts. And so He leaves us to ourselves alone.

And to think, that all this is simply to justify ourselves as saved through faith alone, while sinning against God in the flesh.

 

[RBDERRICK]

???

Sorry, it does look confusing.

God's doctrine of justification is through works of faith.

We are saved by grace through faith and justified by faith through works.

God's definition of faith without works, is faith alone. All such faith is dead to God. It's called dead faith alone without works.

That's why the gospel of salvation and justification by faith without works is false, because it trusts in our own faith alone to save and justify ourselves, without doing any works of God and His righteousness.

God says no man can be saved by their own faith alone, though many try to believe and preach it. It's really just a Christianized version of the world's fantasy, that if we believe something, then that alone makes it true. That's childish delusionalism. It's the doctrine for modern woke theology. I believe I am a male and female, so I am.

It is true, that if we can believe it, we can achieve it, but only if we do what is necessary. The idea of something being true, just because we believe it alone, is strong delusion.

Having eternal life and immortality by our own faith alone, is the lie of the serpent that we will be gods, while still doing sinful things contrary to the will of the only true God.

The faith alone gospel is for hearers only, that justify themselves while doing unrighteousness.

Do you believe it is even possible for Christians to do the righteousness of God daily and walk as Jesus walked in the flesh?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Paul could not be clearer, I think, than he is here that works follow spiritual regeneration, they are the result, the by-product, of salvation, NOT the means of salvation.

There is no 'by product' of faith. Paul declares the faith of God is to be obeyed. (Rom 1) Though we are compared to plants of God, we are not plants that just grow naturally of themselves.

Jesus' comparison of us being branches is to show what happens to the dead branches that bear no fruit. It's not a statement that we 'naturally' bear fruit, without purposely working to do so by faith.

Peter declares we must be diligent to add such works of virtue, godliness, and charity to our faith, in order not to remain unfruitful dead branches cast into the fire. (2 Peter 1)

The faith alone gospel is for the slothful double minded Christians, that give up the good fight and race for the reward of bodily resurrection unto life. The doctrine of not adding good works to faith for that reward is false.

People can play with a doctrine of faith alone without works all they wish in this life, but no such dead faith will raise themselves bodily from the dead unto everlasting life.

Being resurrected bodily unto life with God and the Lamb forever, is our inheritance by reward. We are not reward with being saved, but we are rewarded for living saved. It's the reward of the righteous, that do the word and will of God. It's the reward of good works done in Christ unto the end.

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

No man is saved by faith without works, and no man recieves the reward of inheritance by faith without service.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Paul could not be clearer, I think, than he is here that works follow spiritual regeneration, they are the result, the by-product, of salvation, NOT the means of salvation.

This is grammatically and doctrinally false.

It's not true that we are saved by grace, but not by means of grace.

And likewise it's not true that we are justified by works, but not by means of works.

'By' means by means of, else 'by' has no real meaning.

The lying little horn of Daniel 7 thinks to change times and laws. Like here, it means to try and change common definitions of words.

Anyone trying to see saved by works means by means of works, but justified by works does not mean by means of works, is just playing dishonest word games with God and His words.

We are created in Christ Jesus for good works, not by them.

And this is false translation, for sake of the false doctrine of faith alone without works.

The preposition is not 'for' nor 'unto', as in some time lapse between faith and works. The accurate trasnlation is upon, at, by, and through. And specifically in matters of time, it is at the time of.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus through good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Also, the Scripture applies to both being His workmanship and doing good works, and there cannot be one without other. There is no workmanship where there is no work, even as there is no seamanship without the sea.

Once again changing the normal meaning of words, is necessary to preach the lie of faith without works.

We are being created, saved, and conformed to the image of Christ Jesus, at the time of doing His good works by means of faith.

Faith without works is dead, even as the body without the spirit, because nothing is being done. The same with creation, where God does not create anything by faith alone.

The Spirit moved upon the face of the deep, at the same time God said let there be light.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It follows, then, that if good works have nothing to do with our being saved, they have nothing to do with our remaining saved.

And of course the well-known source for the gospel of faith without works, is to be justified while doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

Scripture of God says the unrighteous doing such things, are not inheriting the kingdom of God. The faith without works bible says the unrighteous doing such things are no more condemned by faith alone.

Faith alone without works is impossible, because no man can do nothing at any time, especially not with God.

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

We are either doing good or evil, and Jesus commands us to make our tree good by doing good all the time.

It's not possible for man to be doing nothing, because it's not possible for man to not be thinking at all. Our thoughts and intents of the heart and mind is work. Even natural man knows thinking can be hard work.

Jesus shows us man made in His image is different from the beasts of the field. We, like the Lord do have thoughts and imagination, and we are judged God by them as by works. Lusting after one another's bodies is committing adultery already in our hearts. (Matthew 25)

The gospel of faith alone without works is also only for the natural man, that neither hears nor sees the things of the Spirit, which are the thoughts and intents of our hearts.

The spiritual man knows that all works with the body begin with the spiritual working of the heart and mind. That is why we are commanded to first cleanse the inside of the platter, and to cast down every vain imagination for sin against God. Walking after the Spirit or the flesh begins with our hearts and minds working for good or evil.

As the saying goes, a thinking mind is a working mind. It takes work indeed, to quench the fiery darts of the wicked and overcome his temptations to lust and sin with the world.

The faith without works believers don't have any spiritual understanding of these things, much less ever speak of the true warfare in their doctrine, which is first spiritual.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Faith without works is just a ceasing of the good fight of our heart and spirit, and lay down to sin or not, telling ourselves all is well with our souls.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Since God always accepts Christ, those in Christ by faith are likewise always accepted by God.

True. And there are none in Christ by faith without works, because that faith is dead and in man's vain imagination alone.

And so James tells us faith without works is not justified nor accepted by God.

It's not acceptable to God just to believe that He is, as the devils do. Faith alone with works is that of devils and hearers only, that are not doing the word.

Titus 3:5-7
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Here, again, Paul is crystal clear that works have nothing whatever to do with a person being born-again spiritually.

Here we see the changing of the Scripture to apply what is past, to what is present and future.

Before salvation, our works have nothing to do with being saved. With salvation, the works we do have everything to do with being saved and justified in Christ.

Paul, the former leader of Jews in their religion, is saying our own works we have done in our own righteousness without God nor His faith in our hearts, cannot save nor justify nor gain any credit with God.

So long as we have sinned, then no works we have done, whether good or evil, can save and justify us in sight of God. We must first be saved, for any of our works to be approved of God.

The doctrine of faith in Jesus, says that none of our past good works, that we have done already, have any merit with God in saving our souls through the blood of Jesus. The same for our past evil works, that cannot prevent God from saving us by grace through Jesus' forgiveness and blood.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

All our past works are judged dead by God, before coming to Him for forgiveness of past sins. We don't bring our old past righteousness and good works with us for entrance into His kingdom.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That includes any past good deeds and neighborliness. Paul is speaking against old works being rewarded with salvation, not against new works being with salvation, especially not as some faith alone zealots preach, as works even being against salvation.

No past works before Christ gains us any favor with God. We must all be saved by grace, and no works we have already done makes us any more or less saved, whether those works were good or evil.

All our past works are forgotten, not our present works.

Applying this doctrine of unjustified past works, to present and future works, is the lie of the devil in the garden, promising us immortality as gods, whether we are doing good or evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

JUSTBYFAITH IS NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM.

 

[Tenchi]

Sorry, it does look confusing.

The question marks aren't intended to indicate confusion but are a response to error.

God's doctrine of justification is through works of faith.

We are saved by grace through faith and justified by faith through works.

Nope. I've already explained why from Scripture.

We are justified - perfectly justified, as God requires - only by the perfect righteousness of Christ. It is solely on the basis of his perfect righteousness that we are acceptable to God. Our own practical righteousness is a pale, weak shadow of Christ's perfect righteousness, and is often shot through with corrupt motives of self-righteousness, fear, duty, selfishness, guilt, etc. We have no hope, therefore, of being righteous enough to please God and thus secure our membership in His family and kingdom. Attempting to do so is to attempt to add to the atoning work of Christ and to say to God that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient, it was incomplete, requiring our feeble contribution of "good deeds" to be effective in its redeeming purpose. As far as I'm concerned, this is sheer blasphemy and a dreadful insult to the Spirit of Grace. (Romans 3:20-24, 28; Romans 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:5-7, etc.)

God's definition of faith without works, is faith alone. All such faith is dead to God. It's called dead faith alone without works.

Such faith is "dead" insofar as it is inactive, failing to generate corresponding deeds, but this doesn't equate to lost salvation. Which is why James never wrote anything like, "If you don't act on your faith by doing good works, you will cease to be saved." Instead, he wrote of faith being "dead" in the sense that it existed by itself:

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Nowhere in James' letter does he ever assert that a "dead" faith, a faith standing alone, meant salvation lost. Such an idea must be imposed on what he wrote, not drawn from his words.

That's why the gospel of salvation and justification by faith without works is false, because it trusts in our own faith alone to save and justify ourselves, without doing any works of God and His righteousness.

No, justification by faith doesn't locate justification in a person's faith but in the OBJECT of their faith: Jesus Christ. Such a view of justification is entirely biblical. See above.

God says no man can be saved by their own faith alone, though many try to believe and preach it.

I've been a Christian for fifty years and I've never heard anyone preach that is the believer's faith that saves them. Their salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ, not their faith. (1 John 5:11-12; John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

It's really just a Christianized version of the world's fantasy, that if we believe something, then that alone makes it true. That's childish delusionalism.

And it is also a Strawman version of what the average person holding to justification-by-faith believes.

It is true, that if we can believe it, we can achieve it, but only if we do what is necessary. The idea of something being true, just because we believe it alone, is strong delusion.

Again, I know of no fellow believer who thinks this way about the doctrine of justification by faith.

Do you believe it is even possible for Christians to do the righteousness of God daily and walk as Jesus walked in the flesh?

That depends upon what you mean by "walk as Jesus walked." I'm not Jesus, who made the universe, and atoned for all the sin of mankind, and rose from the dead. Neither are you.

There is no 'by product' of faith. Paul declares the faith of God is to be obeyed. (Rom 1) Though we are compared to plants of God, we are not plants that just grow naturally of themselves.

Well, obviously, I disagree about good works not being the "by products" of spiritual regeneration, which is what I actually wrote, not "by products of faith." Also, simply asserting your point of view in contradiction to mine doesn't justify your view, nor does it negate mine.

It's not true that we are saved by grace, but not by means of grace.

And likewise it's not true that we are justified by works, but not by means of works.

'By' means by means of, else 'by' has no real meaning.

??? I have no idea what you're going on about here...

Anyone trying to see saved by works means by means of works, but justified by works does not mean by means of works, is just playing dishonest word games with God and His words.

Nowhere in the NT will you read that a person is justified, in a born-again sense, by works.

Jesus' comparison of us being branches is to show what happens to the dead branches that bear no fruit. It's not a statement that we 'naturally' bear fruit, without purposely working to do so by faith.

As I explained from the passage in John 15, the "branches" are of two kinds: saved and lost, not of one kind of branch that could be saved at one point and then lost at another.

Peter declares we must be diligent to add such works of virtue, godliness, and charity to our faith, in order not to remain unfruitful dead branches cast into the fire. (2 Peter 1)

in 2 Peter 1, the apostle Peter wrote nothing about "dead branches cast into the fire"; he wrote only of "barren and unfruitful branches" (2 Peter 1:8).

People can play with a doctrine of faith alone without works all they wish in this life, but no such dead faith will raise themselves bodily from the dead unto everlasting life.

Again, this is a Strawman of what the doctrine of justification by faith teaches. No one I know who holds to this doctrine, clearly spelled-out in Scripture, thinks that it is grounds for neglect of right living. When I echo God's word which says we are saved apart from works, I don't mean that good works have no place AT ALL in Christian living. That's just silly.

Being resurrected bodily unto life with God and the Lamb forever, is our inheritance by reward.

Nope. Those who receive a "reward" from God at the Final Judgment are those who are already His own, who are born-again and have been serving Him well as such. Salvation is not the reward but the necessary predicate to any reward. (Matthew 5:11-12; Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:8-15; Revelation 22:12, etc.)

And this is false translation, for sake of the false doctrine of faith alone without works.

The preposition is not 'for' nor 'unto', as in some time lapse between faith and works. The accurate trasnlation is upon, at, by, and through. And specifically in matters of time, it is at the time of.

Both Strong's and Thayer's Bible lexicons confirm the translation of the preposition "epi" (Greek) in Ephesians 2:10 as "unto." And so, the translation of epi in Ephesians 2:10 in the vast majority of the 60-some English translations I've looked at, render "epi" either as "for" or "unto." The rest translate the verse in such a way as to make it clear that good works follow after salvation as the effect of it, not as the means of salvation. Not one of them renders "epi" as "through," which, of course, stands to reason, since other verses, written by Paul, explicitly forbid such a rendering.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

In light of the fact that the general consensus of English Bible translators (many of them experts in ancient Greek) opposes your view of "epi" in Ephesians 2:10, I see no reason to think that the way the verse is rendered in my KJV, NKJV, NASB, or ESV versions is false in the least.

 

[Tenchi]

And of course the well-known source for the gospel of faith without works, is to be justified while doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

??? Every person who is saved is so in the condition the Bible describes:

Romans 5:6-10 (NASB)
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Titus 3:3-5 (NASB)
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:1-5 (NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

It is, in light of these passages, bizarre to assert that our good works contribute to our salvation. Prior to being saved, we were helpless sinners, enemies of God, foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved, bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil. In such a state, we hadn't the capacity to perform works God would have accepted. It is precisely because this is the case for all unregenerate people, that Christ was sent as a propitiation for them, the one and only Savior.

Scripture of God says the unrighteous doing such things, are not inheriting the kingdom of God. The faith without works bible says the unrighteous doing such things are no more condemned by faith alone.

Those who live persistently and comfortably in sin will not inherit God's kingdom; for they reveal by such living that they are not yet saved. But as Scripture reveals, the genuinely born-again in the Early Church were carnal, divisive, selfish, legalistic, and ignorant and yet still of the family of God. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3, 5, 6, 11; Galatians, Ephesians 5:1-13; Romans 6:15-17, Revelation 2-3, etc.)

We are either doing good or evil, and Jesus commands us to make our tree good by doing good all the time.

No, we are commanded as those who are the temple of God, of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20), to live constantly under the Spirit's control so that we might be filled and transformed with and by him. The Holy Spirit produces the fruit of himself in us; we don't - we can't - produce such fruit ourselves. (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:13-14; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5; Galatians 5:16, 25; Ephesians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, etc.)

Much of what Jesus taught in the Gospels was taught to Jews within an Old Covenant context, before his saving work on the cross of Calvary, and so was devoid of any mention of his atonement for sin, of the indwelling and empowering Holy Spirit, or of spiritual regeneration through trust in himself as Savior and Lord. Christ's teachings to the Jews prior to his Atonement, then, is not for the born-again believer who walks with God under the New Covenant formed through the blood sacrifice of the perfect "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World" (John 1:29; Hebrews 9- 10:22).

Our thoughts and intents of the heart and mind is work. Even natural man knows thinking can be hard work.

But there are, or course, different kinds of work, of labor. Digging a trench with a shovel is not the same sort of work as studying for a Calculus exam; working to knit a sweater is not the same sort of work as weeding the garden; the work of painting one's house is not the same as the work being done by a guy playing basketball with his buddies. Some work is done to maintain something; some work is done for the sake of play or entertainment; some work is done to achieve a goal; some work is done for the sake of experiment and discovery. When the Bible, then, speaks of good works being excluded from our salvation, it is not speaking of the obviously necessary business of taking in knowledge (ie. the Gospel), considering it and acting upon it, but of acting in contribution to the saving work of Christ. To that redeeming, atoning, saving work we can add nothing - just as a man afflicted with a cancerous brain tumor can't add to the life-saving work of a brain surgeon who is removing the sick man's tumor. All the man can do is lie on the table and receive the life-saving work of the surgeon. Though the diseased man has understood that he has a fatal tumor and has trusted in the surgeon to save him from his tumor, he can do nothing to remove the tumor itself. He can believe that he's sick and that the sickness can be cured by the work of the surgeon all he likes, but if the man doesn't finally submit himself to the saving skill of the surgeon and receive from the surgeon the work only the surgeon can do, the tumorous man will die.

In the same way, our knowing and believing the Gospel doesn't save us. Ultimately, salvation is not in a person's faith, or good works, but is in the Great Physician who alone can save sin-sick sinners from eternal death. (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 5:11-12)

The faith without works believers don't have any spiritual understanding of these things, much less ever speak of the true warfare in their doctrine, which is first spiritual.

Strawman. Those who believe in justification by faith are not like this at all, in my experience.

Ephesians 6:10 (NASB)
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.

The call of God to His children is that they be strong in Himself, in His might, not their own. By the power of the Holy Spirit, they are to produce godly "fruit," the fruit, not of themselves, not of their fleshly effort, but of the Spirit. It appears to me that you don't understand this at all and, instead, are thinking that your own fleshly effort is necessary to your salvation. However, God promises that anything we do that arises from the flesh will produce only corruption and death. (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8; Galatians 5:17)

 

[Tenchi]

And so James tells us faith without works is not justified nor accepted by God.

??? James never wrote any such thing in his letter. The closest he gets in his entire letter to anything like you've asserted here is in the following passage:

James 2:21-24 (NASB)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
But, hold on, there's this passage in Scripture, too:

Romans 4:1-5 (NASB)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Instead of just leaving these passages in apparent contradiction, or tension, with each other, a person handling God's word well will work to synthesize them, to see them as complementary, not contrary, to each another. What, then, does James mean when he wrote, "Abraham our father was justified by works"? Well, he went on to explain what he meant: Abraham's faith was "perfected," or completed, or finished, by corresponding works (vs. 22). But then James went on to acknowledge the very thing Paul wrote in his letter to the believers at Rome: Abraham's belief, his faith, was counted to him for righteousness (vs. 23). James, though, seems to have defined "faith" somewhat differently than Paul, making the actions that arise from belief part of what is meant by "faith."

Paul is very clear, though, that if Abraham was justified by works, he had grounds for boasting and could expect a "due wage" for them (vs. 2, 4). In contrast, the man who doesn't work for his justification but believes that, in Christ, he may be fully, perfectly justified, his belief/trust/faith in Christ is credited to him as righteousness. Are Paul and James in flat-out contradiction to one another? No, I don't think so. I think what happens here for many Christians is that they conflate what is inevitable with what is necessary.

I mean that folks take James to be saying that the works that arise inevitably from faith, because they do so, are therefore necessary. This is the sort of thinking of the person who believes that, because apple trees inevitably produce apples, the apples are therefore necessary to an apple tree being an apple tree. This thinking doesn't take into account the various impediments to fruit-bearing that may stifle an apple tree's ability to produce apples. Most people understand that disease, damaging pests, poor soil and little moisture, excessive heat or cold, or simple immaturity can all prevent an apple tree from producing fruit. These people recognize, therefore, that, while apples are inevitable from a healthy, well-nourished tree, apples aren't necessary to the apple tree being an apple tree.

Likewise, a person who has trusted in Christ and holds to their faith in him in a spiritually-healthy, nourishing, "pest-free" environment, unaffected by spiritual "disease," will inevitably bear the fruit of their faith in their living. But this doesn't mean that this fruit is therefore necessary to their being in Christ, a born-again Christian. Just as in the case of the apple tree, there are a number of things that can halt "fruit-bearing" in a born-again believer's life, that can cause their faith not to be "perfected" in corresponding action. But this no more means they aren't a Christian than a lack of fruit from an apple tree means it isn't an apple tree.

Ideally, faith in Christ should give rise to corresponding works, as James pointed out, but, as Paul repeatedly made clear, this doesn't mean faith in Christ must produce such works, that such works are necessary to one's salvation. This is going too far with James's words, defying Paul's repeated declarations in Scripture that it is "...not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..." (Titus 3:5).

I have no time to write more at the moment.

 

[grace2]

??? James never wrote any such thing in his letter. The closest he gets in his entire letter to anything like you've asserted here is in the following passage:

James 2:21-24 (NASB)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
But, hold on, there's this passage in Scripture, too:

Romans 4:1-5 (NASB)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Instead of just leaving these passages in apparent contradiction, or tension, with each other, a person handling God's word well will work to synthesize them, to see them as complementary, not contrary, to each another. What, then, does James mean when he wrote, "Abraham our father was justified by works"? Well, he went on to explain what he meant: Abraham's faith was "perfected," or completed, or finished, by corresponding works (vs. 22). But then James went on to acknowledge the very thing Paul wrote in his letter to the believers at Rome: Abraham's belief, his faith, was counted to him for righteousness (vs. 23). James, though, seems to have defined "faith" somewhat differently than Paul, making the actions that arise from belief part of what is meant by "faith."

Paul is very clear, though, that if Abraham was justified by works, he had grounds for boasting and could expect a "due wage" for them (vs. 2, 4). In contrast, the man who doesn't work for his justification but believes that, in Christ, he may be fully, perfectly justified, his belief/trust/faith in Christ is credited to him as righteousness. Are Paul and James in flat-out contradiction to one another? No, I don't think so. I think what happens here for many Christians is that they conflate what is inevitable with what is necessary.

I mean that folks take James to be saying that the works that arise inevitably from faith, because they do so, are therefore necessary. This is the sort of thinking of the person who believes that, because apple trees inevitably produce apples, the apples are therefore necessary to an apple tree being an apple tree. This thinking doesn't take into account the various impediments to fruit-bearing that may stifle an apple tree's ability to produce apples. Most people understand that disease, damaging pests, poor soil and little moisture, excessive heat or cold, or simple immaturity can all prevent an apple tree from producing fruit. These people recognize, therefore, that, while apples are inevitable from a healthy, well-nourished tree, apples aren't necessary to the apple tree being an apple tree.

Likewise, a person who has trusted in Christ and holds to their faith in him in a spiritually-healthy, nourishing, "pest-free" environment, unaffected by spiritual "disease," will inevitably bear the fruit of their faith in their living. But this doesn't mean that this fruit is therefore necessary to their being in Christ, a born-again Christian. Just as in the case of the apple tree, there are a number of things that can halt "fruit-bearing" in a born-again believer's life, that can cause their faith not to be "perfected" in corresponding action. But this no more means they aren't a Christian than a lack of fruit from an apple tree means it isn't an apple tree.

Ideally, faith in Christ should give rise to corresponding works, as James pointed out, but, as Paul repeatedly made clear, this doesn't mean faith in Christ must produce such works, that such works are necessary to one's salvation. This is going too far with James's words, defying Paul's repeated declarations in Scripture that it is "...not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..." (Titus 3:5).

I have no time to write more at the moment.

You are way off, friend.

Salvation is conditional. Jesus says " if you love Me, keep My commandment."

just saying.

 

[Tenchi]

You are way off, friend.

Salvation is conditional. Jesus says " if you love Me, keep My commandment."

just saying.

??? I have no idea what value this response is supposed to have. It doesn't even begin to address in any useful way what I wrote; it is, actually, a very flip, very facile response that in no way rebuts anything that I explained.

So, you think I'm "off." Okay. So what? I think you're off and I've provided a far more thoughtful and broad scriptural basis for my view than the single, mishandled verse you've put forward. Until you offer a far better, more scripturally comprehensive, response to my post, I've no reason to give your remark any weight whatever.

 

[RBDERRICK]

It is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19), that "washes," "regenerates," and "renews" the lost person

True. It is only God and His work that forgives sins. We can forgive ourselves, which is modern feel good theology, but we are not forgiven by God without the faith of Jesus in our hearts.

; by spiritual baptism, the Spirit places them in Christ thus making them justified and sanctified before God, clothed in the perfect righteousness of the Savior. (1 Corinthians 1:2, 30; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Romans 13:14)

And that is when we first begin the first works of keeping ourselves clothed in righteousness.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us be cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Do you believe it is possible to remain pure of heart without lusting, and righteously walk as Jesus walked?

To make good works in any measure the basis for a person's salvation is to diminish the saving work and role of Jesus Christ

It's to ensure it unto the end. (2 Peter 1:5-11)(Matthew 13:21)

and to deny the plain declaration of God's word.

Confirms the plain declaration of God's word. (2 Peter 1:5-11)(Matthew 13:21)

Works-salvation is "another gospel" a foul, destructive corruption of the Truth that binds people in fear and legalism.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Them that fear the Lord do not transgress His law. Them transgressing His law fear His judgment.

The faith alone gospel removes the fear of the Lord, by doing away with His judgement.

No, it absolutely is not. No man can justify himself (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 5:4). This is precisely why a divine Savior was necessary.

James is not justifying himself nor teaching it. Paul refers to past works, which we have done without faith in our lives.

Self-justification is by our own good deeds without faith from a pure heart, or by our own faith alone without good works.

Both are false.

John 15:6 refers to those who've never been born-again, not of one who is saved and then lost.

No, just cut off dead branches cast into the fire.

Verse 6 stands in contrasting parallelism to verses 4 and 5, which parallelism was common to ancient Jewish thought and literature. Verses 4 and 5 describe the born-again person and verse 6 the person who has not been born-again. These verses don't describe the same person, who moves from a born-again state into an unborn-again one.

No branch ceases to abide in the vine, that was never in the vine.

The idea that these three verses emphasize the necessity of good works to salvation totally ignores what they actually say:

Those preaching the doctrine of Christ simply repeat the words written.

Those teaching another doctrine plainly manipulate the words into something else.

John 15:4-5
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

What Jesus clearly indicated here is that no one can "bear fruit" except it is as a result of his life in them. And this life is obtained only by "abiding in him," which is to say, by being born-again.

True. And those in the vine, that do not abide in the vine by adding virtuous works to bear fruit (2 Peter 1), are cut off as dead and cast into the fire.

Those never in the vine are not yet a branch needing to abide therein.

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Suddenly, Jesus moved from "you" - his disciples to whom he was speaking - to "anyone," "them," and "they," clearly referring generally to anyone not "in me."

And suddenly someone inserts anyone 'else' into Jesus' words.

In this it is very evident, I think, that Jesus was not speaking of the same person in verse 6 that he was in verses 4 and 5, but of the contrasting opposite to the person abiding in him: one who is not abiding in him, that is, an unsaved person. Jesus is simply defining two basic categories - saved and lost - into which every person falls. There is, then, in John 15:4-6 no teaching of a saved-and-lost doctrine. Only if one already has put on the lenses of works-salvation does this passage appear as grounds for such a false doctrine.

Whole lot of stuff just to insert anyone 'else' into Jesus' words.

The faith without works doctrine is the sophist's version of the Bible.

This isn't what the rest of Scripture indicates. See above. James's words don't utterly negate all else in God's word.

Nor does he contradict any Scripture anywhere.

And it's Peter exhorting us to add the good works of virtue and godliness to our faith, so that we ensure we are not fruitless and do enter into the everlasting kingdom of Christ.

There is nothing inevitable about producing fruit, which is why we are exhorted to ensure it by virtue, godliness, charity...

Do you believe it is possible to live virtuously and righteously walking daily as Jesus walked?

Instead, the rest of the NT qualifies and clarifies his remarks, mitigating against and constraining the very sort of extreme interpretation you want to give James's words.

Continued below.

Whole lot of mitigating and constraining going on out there.

Repeating the words written is only extreme to those who want to change them into something else.

Teaching God's doctrine from His own words, believing them exactly as written, is basically the immoveable stop sign to all false doctrine.

 

[gordon777]

Teaching God's doctrine from His own words, believing them exactly as written, is basically the immoveable stop sign to all false doctrine.

The true teaching is the afflictions of Jesus Christ, being not of this world, any other teaching is satan as an angel of light. ( seeming to speak the right thing, and doing none of it but talk the predicted great swelling words of vanity therefore/easy to highlight, they have no Spirit/no light, no sincerity, none manifested/are in darkness)


2 Tinothy 2:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.