Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[gordon777]

Salvation is through talk alone, through forum vanity, or that talk would cease immediately.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The verse you quote here from 2 Peter 1 says nothing about being saved and lost, only that the one "purged from his old sins" who lacks those things Peter listed in verses 5-7 is "blind" - not unsaved - and "cannot see afar off."

This is truly remarkable.

Faith alone preachers now confess openly they are blind guides to the blind.

Elsewhere they say falling in ditches is not really death to God, and so they literally preach the gospel for the blind following the blind to fall into ditches.

They crucified Jesus bodily before, for condemning them as blind guides, and Paul says they crucify Him afresh today. (Heb 6:6)

However, today's guides to the blind are not offended at all. They openly proclaim it.

No one has said that being spiritually immature and carnal is "inevitable," or "justified," only that sin in the life of a believer is not proof-positive that they have lost their salvation.

As Paul's letter to the Corinthians and John's letter to the seven churches illustrate, however, such immaturity and carnality does not equate to lost salvation.

Since the faith alone gospel says no one can lose their salvation, then there's no point in arguing about evidence of losing salvation.

Personally, I have no issue with anyone claiming faith and salvation by Jesus Christ. So long as possible, I take everyone at their word.

It's the doctrine of blind faith alone with works, that is the near-sighted guide to ditches. That gospel would never rebuke anyone for calling Him Lord, Lord without works. That's pushing 'fear and legalism'.

The Bible speaks of the eye salve of the Lord that gives true sight, and the eye salve of man that gives false light:

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

And what is that salve of man? Faith without works that saves forever on the inside, not matter what is being done on the outside. Afterall, it is faith without works.

The Bible says it's dead, but man says it lives forever more, in darkness and ditches.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Nope. This is nowhere stated in Scripture. Only the man in open adultery with his step-mother is cast out from the community of believers at Corinth. Paul doesn't cast out any of the other divisive, arrogant, selfish, carnal believers in the Corinthian church. Instead, he appeals to them to better living as fellow believers, brethren, temples of the Holy Spirit, and those in Christ.



Hebrews 6:4-8 is not speaking of truly born-again "milk drinkers," but of false brethren, false converts within the company of believers.



The life of Christ was always in them; not, though, the character of Christ. Until they left off law-keeping, trying to reach God by way of good works, and settled instead into life in the Spirit, they could not hope to properly manifest Christ in their daily living (2 Corinthians 4:7-11; Romans 8:29).



Paul never referred to the Judaizers in the churches in Galatia as brethren; but he did call the born-again believers in Christ in the province of Galatia "brethren," and those who had "begun in the Spirit," and "children of God."



Are those in a ditch cut off from life? No. Injured, perhaps, and dirty, but they are not destroyed by merely falling into a ditch.



Yes, amen.



Nope. Paul is really clear at the beginning of Romans 8 to locate the reason for freedom from condemnation, not in the believer's deeds but in their position in Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1-2
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.



Not to those perfectly justified and sanctified by trusting in Christ as Savior and yielding to him as Lord. These may be "carnal babes in Christ," "milk drinkers," straying into legalistic law-keeping, having lost their first love, lukewarm in their walk with God, and STILL be part of God's family. God's grace is truly amazing!

Romans 5:20
20 ...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,



Nope. See above. In reality, it is thoroughly biblical.



To whom was Jesus speaking and when? To Christians? No. After the atonement of the cross? No. Did he say anything about trusting in himself as Savior and Lord? No. Did he say anything about the indwelling Holy Spirit? No. He was speaking to Jews still under the Old Covenant from an Old Covenant perspective. His words to them in such a context have little bearing upon those walking with God under the New Covenant.

I believe a Christian walking daily in the Spirit can be a whole lot more holy, a whole lot less sinful, than they often believe they can be. Sinless perfection, however, is nonsense - particularly because no one knows what such perfection actually is practically and because nowhere in Scripture is such a condition held out as possible in practice to the born-again person. They are made perfect in Christ who alone is perfect.

 

[gordon777]

This is truly remarkable.

Faith alone preachers now confess openly they are blind guides to the blind.

Elsewhere they say falling in ditches is not really death to God, and so they literally preach the gospel for the blind following the blind to fall into ditches.

They crucified Jesus bodily before, for condemning them as blind guides, and Paul says they crucify Him afresh today. (Heb 6:6)

However, today's guides to the blind are not offended at all. They openly proclaim it.






Since the faith alone gospel says no one can lose their salvation, then there's no point in arguing about evidence of losing salvation.

Personally, I have no issue with anyone claiming faith and salvation by Jesus Christ. So long as possible, I take everyone at their word.

It's the doctrine of blind faith alone with works, that is the near-sighted guide to ditches. That gospel would never rebuke anyone for calling Him Lord, Lord without works. That's pushing 'fear and legalism'.

The Bible speaks of the eye salve of the Lord that gives true sight, and the eye salve of man that gives false light:

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

And what is that salve of man? Faith without works that saves forever on the inside, not matter what is being done on the outside. Afterall, it is faith without works.

The Bible says it's dead, but man says it lives forever more, in darkness and ditches.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

This scripture means your "teachings" are null and voided:

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain
dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

 

[Tenchi]

This is truly remarkable.

Faith alone preachers now confess openly they are blind guides to the blind.

This response is what is known as a deflection. It's also an oblique sort of ad hominem (which is a form of fallacious arguing).

Elsewhere they say falling in ditches is not really death to God, and so they literally preach the gospel for the blind following the blind to fall into ditches.

What's odd to me is that you are accusing "faith alone preachers" (whoever they are) of the very thing you've attempted to do: insert your own meaning into verses. How does "falling into a ditch" equate to "death to God"? The latter notion just isn't present in the former. As a kid, decades ago, I literally fell into a ditch; there was water in it, and weeds, and rocks, so I got dirty and scraped up when I did. But there was no chance of dying merely by falling into the ditch. When Jesus spoke of the "blind leading the blind" into a ditch, he said nothing about doing so being fatal, spiritually or otherwise. Instead, in context, Jesus was speaking about being judgmental and doing so particularly in an ill-informed, hypocritical way.

Luke 6:37-42
37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”
39 He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a ditch?
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

That you are so convinced that "falling into a ditch" (or pit) is the same as "death to God" shows how badly the lens through which you're reading God's word is distorting your understanding of it. Yikes.

They crucified Jesus bodily before, for condemning them as blind guides, and Paul says they crucify Him afresh today. (Heb 6:6)

However, today's guides to the blind are not offended at all. They openly proclaim it.

Uh huh. Vague ad hominem isn't a valid argument for your views...

Since the faith alone gospel says no one can lose their salvation, then there's no point in arguing about evidence of losing salvation.

Personally, I have no issue with anyone claiming faith and salvation by Jesus Christ. So long as possible, I take everyone at their word.

Well, I take Scripture as it is and so arrive at the conclusion that once God saves someone they cannot be unsaved.

It's the doctrine of blind faith alone with works, that is the near-sighted guide to ditches. That gospel would never rebuke anyone for calling Him Lord, Lord without works. That's pushing 'fear and legalism'.

As I pointed out from the passage in Luke, Jesus had hypocritical judgment in view in his description of the "blind leading the blind into a ditch," not the question of justification by faith. You are misapplying the analogy, ignoring its context, it seems to me, completely. This is a poor way to handle God's word.

The Bible speaks of the eye salve of the Lord that gives true sight, and the eye salve of man that gives false light:

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

??? I don't see any mention of "eye salve" in this verse... Revelation 3:18 mentions eye salve, but the verse you've quoted above is from Matthew 6 and is addressing the matter of singleness of focus, not spiritual lukewarmness, which is the subject of the verse in Revelation 3:18. In Matthew 6, Jesus is speaking to unsaved, Jewish folk in an Old Covenant context, but in Revelation 3:14-22, the Spirit is speaking to the Loadicean church, to born-again people under the New Covenant. These are two very different groups, approaching and interacting with God under two very different conditions. Why, then, are you linking them together? What is the thinking that underlies this jumping around and connecting passages together that are speaking on widely different topics to widely different groups of people?

And what is that salve of man? Faith without works that saves forever on the inside, not matter what is being done on the outside. Afterall, it is faith without works.

The Bible says it's dead, but man says it lives forever more, in darkness and ditches.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

See above.

 

[gordon777]

People being blind are blinded by satan, and are blaspheming God.

It is not the best place to be in or defend being in. ( THEY ARE LOST.)

Blind leaders are still trying to LEAD. ( forum teachers, their judgement is coming soon.)


Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The verse you quote here from 2 Peter 1 says nothing about being saved and lost, only that the one "purged from his old sins" who lacks those things Peter listed in verses 5-7 is "blind" - not unsaved - and "cannot see afar off."

Blindly saved.

Faith without works is both blind and dead.

No one has said that being spiritually immature and carnal is "inevitable," or "justified," only that sin in the life of a believer is not proof-positive that they have lost their salvation.

True. It's proof negative.

In faith without works, sinning proves nothing, because works are nothing.

The unrighteous that do such things shall inherit the kingdom of God by faith alone.

Paul doesn't cast out any of the other divisive, arrogant, selfish, carnal believers in the Corinthian church.

....proud, boasters, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures, more than lovers of God...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Not in the faith without works church though, they are just the filthy brethren.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

We have here the very gospel warned against by Peter, where the way of truth is evil spoken of.

It's in full disclosure and marvellous display without any hint of pretence nor shame.

Are those in a ditch cut off from life? No. Injured, perhaps, and dirty, but they are not destroyed by merely falling into a ditch.

having lost their first love, lukewarm in their walk with God, and STILL be part of God's family.

The Christian religion of faith without works:

Blind, carnal, arrogant, selfish lovers of their own selves, walking after the flesh, love lost, lukewarm, ditch dwellers.

The vomit spued out by Jesus, and STILL welcome into the Christian family of OSAS.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

The life of Christ was always in them; not, though, the character of Christ.

And finally without any character of Christ.

Christ Himself is now separated from His own character, in order to justify the unrepentant without His character.

He must check His character at the door.

This of course makes no pretence of preaching Jesus the Christ, but just another false christ of another gospel.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is not an accusation but a factual list of the Christian faith without works, and what Jesus and His apostles say about it.

It's the gospel of being saved and justified by a christ without Jesus' character nor righteous works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Romans 8:1-2
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

A purposed and painfully obvious omission of Scripture.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no honor, honesty, nor seriousness to this faith alone doctrine. But then, there is no character of Christ either.

Not to those perfectly justified and sanctified by trusting in Christ as Savior and yielding to him as Lord. These may be "carnal babes in Christ," "milk drinkers," straying into legalistic law-keeping,

Only the keepers of the law of Christ are condemned.

God's grace is truly amazing!

Oh boy. Now for the OSAS grace celebration dance.

Ceeeeeeeelebrate that grace! C'mon!!!

Romans 5:20
20 ...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

God is speaking of the lost before being saved by His grace.

Now it is used for continued sinning, that grace may abound without boundaries.

The deep pit of corrupting God's word to justify the unrepentant is truly bottomless.

To whom was Jesus speaking and when? To Christians? No.

His words to them in such a context have little bearing upon those walking with God under the New Covenant.

It's just unfathomable.

Jesus' words before the cross, have little bearing after the resurrection!

And no bearing at all when speaking to Jews, which included His apostles and disciples.

Knowing a tree by it's fruit only applies to Jews under the OT, not to any other person on earth.

Truly remarkable.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Nope. False. See above.



The verse you quote here from 2 Peter 1 says nothing about being saved and lost, only that the one "purged from his old sins" who lacks those things Peter listed in verses 5-7 is "blind" - not unsaved - and "cannot see afar off."

No one has said that being spiritually immature and carnal is "inevitable," or "justified," only that sin in the life of a believer is not proof-positive that they have lost their salvation. Good works are inevitable in the life of a born-again person if they are in a spiritually-nourishing circumstance: discipled well, supported and challenged by spiritually-mature fellow believers, feeding regularly and deeply on God's word, walking daily in the Spirit, etc. (Ephesians 4:11-16; 1 Peter 2:2; Matthew 4:4; Galatians 5:16, 24). If this is not the case, the sort of immaturity and carnality of the church at Corinth and in the seven churches of Revelation 2-3 (save the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia), is the result. As Paul's letter to the Corinthians and John's letter to the seven churches illustrate, however, such immaturity and carnality does not equate to lost salvation.



Nope. This is nowhere stated in Scripture. Only the man in open adultery with his step-mother is cast out from the community of believers at Corinth. Paul doesn't cast out any of the other divisive, arrogant, selfish, carnal believers in the Corinthian church. Instead, he appeals to them to better living as fellow believers, brethren, temples of the Holy Spirit, and those in Christ.



Hebrews 6:4-8 is not speaking of truly born-again "milk drinkers," but of false brethren, false converts within the company of believers.



The life of Christ was always in them; not, though, the character of Christ. Until they left off law-keeping, trying to reach God by way of good works, and settled instead into life in the Spirit, they could not hope to properly manifest Christ in their daily living (2 Corinthians 4:7-11; Romans 8:29).



Paul never referred to the Judaizers in the churches in Galatia as brethren; but he did call the born-again believers in Christ in the province of Galatia "brethren," and those who had "begun in the Spirit," and "children of God."



Are those in a ditch cut off from life? No. Injured, perhaps, and dirty, but they are not destroyed by merely falling into a ditch.



Yes, amen.



Nope. Paul is really clear at the beginning of Romans 8 to locate the reason for freedom from condemnation, not in the believer's deeds but in their position in Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1-2
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.



Not to those perfectly justified and sanctified by trusting in Christ as Savior and yielding to him as Lord. These may be "carnal babes in Christ," "milk drinkers," straying into legalistic law-keeping, having lost their first love, lukewarm in their walk with God, and STILL be part of God's family. God's grace is truly amazing!

Romans 5:20
20 ...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

God is speaking of the unsaved before coming to Christ.

It'ss now applied to Christians, that grace may abound without boundaries.

I believe a Christian walking daily in the Spirit can be a whole lot more holy, a whole lot less sinful,

than they often believe they can be.

And here we have Christian progressive morality with fornication less often. Walking after the Spirit and the flesh. And it's based upon unbelief.

This is not the faith of Jesus, that believes unto righteousness from the heart.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Saying it is impossible to do righteousness at all times and walk as Jesus walked is unbelief.

The conversion of faith without works, only now believes that there is a true God and that sinning is not so good.

Their trial of faith is not to endure temptation and overcome sin, but is to try to keep believing there is one true God and sin is not so good.

Christians saints never doubt there is a God in heaven. Faith without works struggles just to believe it.

It's the Christian version of religions and philosophies that say it's better to do good than evil, but still do both.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Blindly saved.

Faith without works is both blind and dead.

True. It's proof negative.

In faith without works, sinning proves nothing, because works are nothing.

The unrighteous that do such things shall inherit the kingdom of God by faith alone.

....proud, boasters, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures, more than lovers of God...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Not in the faith without works church though, they are just the filthy brethren.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

We have here the very gospel warned against by Peter, where the way of truth is evil spoken of.

It's in full disclosure and marvellous display without any hint of pretence nor shame.

The Christian religion of faith without works:

Blind, carnal, arrogant, selfish lovers of their own selves, walking after the flesh, love lost, lukewarm, ditch dwellers.

The vomit spued out by Jesus, and STILL welcome into the Christian family of OSAS.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


And finally without any character of Christ.

Christ Himself is now separated from His own character, in order to justify the unrepentant without His character.

He must check His character at the door.

This of course makes no pretence of preaching Jesus the Christ, but just another false christ of another gospel.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is not an accusation but a factual list of the Christian faith without works, and what Jesus and His apostles say about it.

It's the gospel of being saved and justified by a christ without Jesus' character nor righteous works.

You're failing to distinguish the difference between James' "faith alone" argument, and Paul's "righteousness apart from works" argument. They are not making the same argument for justification.

When referring to Paul's argument you should use the correct terminology, "righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6) to avoid confusion with James' different argument, "faith alone" (James 2:24).

 

[Tenchi]

Blindly saved.

Salvation isn't in view in the story of the blind leading the blind. It as I said: The story is about hypocritical judgment. Just read the passage.

Faith without works is both blind and dead.

Your merely saying so doesn't make it so.

In faith without works, sinning proves nothing, because works are nothing.

Strawman.

The unrighteous that do such things shall inherit the kingdom of God by faith alone.

Strawman.

....proud, boasters, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures, more than lovers of God...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

You posted these portions of verses from 2 Timothy in response to an observation I made about 1 Corinthians. Are you just knee-jerk reacting to my remarks? You sure aren't really thinking about them, as this response reveals.

Not in the faith without works church though, they are just the filthy brethren.

Uh huh.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

We have here the very gospel warned against by Peter, where the way of truth is evil spoken of.

We do? What Gospel is that, exactly? Peter doesn't say. How, then, do you know? What does it mean to "deny the Lord that bought them" exactly? In what way do they do so? Again, Peter doesn't say.

It's in full disclosure and marvellous display without any hint of pretence nor shame.

Uh huh.

The Christian religion of faith without works:

Blind, carnal, arrogant, selfish lovers of their own selves, walking after the flesh, love lost, lukewarm, ditch dwellers.

The vomit spued out by Jesus, and STILL welcome into the Christian family of OSAS.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Aaaand more Strawman stuff.

And finally without any character of Christ.

Christ Himself is now separated from His own character, in order to justify the unrepentant without His character.

He must check His character at the door.

And some more Strawman rhetoric.

This of course makes no pretence of preaching Jesus the Christ, but just another false christ of another gospel.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is not an accusation but a factual list of the Christian faith without works, and what Jesus and His apostles say about it.

It's the gospel of being saved and justified by a christ without Jesus' character nor righteous works.

No, it's an accusation. And one that attacks a Strawman version of the actual position that you're opposing.

A purposed and painfully obvious omission of Scripture.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no honor, honesty, nor seriousness to this faith alone doctrine. But then, there is no character of Christ either.

In the best manuscripts, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" does not appear. It is regarded by the vast majority of Bible scholars to be a later accretion to the text and not original to Romans 8:1. This is why forty-two English versions of the Bible render this verse without the accretion.

Oh boy. Now for the OSAS grace celebration dance.

Ceeeeeeeelebrate that grace! C'mon!!!

This is very sad.

Romans 5:20
20 ...where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

God is speaking of the lost before being saved by His grace.

Romans 5:17-21
17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:20 in context is speaking to the super-abundance of God's grace that extends beyond any and all sin. There is no contextual constraint upon this fact, making it true only for the lost before salvation. This is a limit you're imposing on the text.

But this myopic, eisegetical handling of God's word is pretty typical of what you've written so far.

Now it is used for continued sinning, that grace may abound without boundaries.

The deep pit of corrupting God's word to justify the unrepentant is truly bottomless.

Verbal hand-wringing doesn't prove your view or rebut mine. It's just rhetorical noise.

It's just unfathomable.

Jesus' words before the cross, have little bearing after the resurrection!

And no bearing at all when speaking to Jews, which included His apostles and disciples.

Strawman. Again.

Knowing a tree by it's fruit only applies to Jews under the OT, not to any other person on earth.

Truly remarkable.

Yup, that's right: More Strawman rhetoric.

And here we have Christian progressive morality with fornication less often. Walking after the Spirit and the flesh. And it's based upon unbelief.

Just more to add to the pile of Strawman silliness.

This is not the faith of Jesus, that believes unto righteousness from the heart.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Saying it is impossible to do righteousness at all times and walk as Jesus walked is unbelief.

Your conclusion here doesn't follow necessarily from your premise.

The conversion of faith without works, only now believes that there is a true God and that sinning is not so good.

There is no conversion/salvation by works: Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9.

Who said "sinning is not so good"? I didn't. See? Another Strawman.

Their trial of faith is not to endure temptation and overcome sin, but is to try to keep believing there is one true God and sin is not so good.

Christians saints never doubt there is a God in heaven. Faith without works struggles just to believe it.

It's the Christian version of religions and philosophies that say it's better to do good than evil, but still do both.

Wow. Your Strawmanning is impressive. It's silly and without value in supporting your views or rebutting mine, but impressive, nonetheless. I've rarely seen someone appear to be so entirely unaware that they are knocking down a cartoonish, non-existent position.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In faith without works, sinning proves nothing, because works are nothing.

But what about in "righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6).
Are works something, or nothing in regard to that argument?

 

[Free]

Have you all defined what you mean by the terms you're using? Salvation has three components to it--justification, sanctification, glorification--and it seems to me that "faith alone" applies to only one of them and works, in the power of the Spirit, to another; the latter proves the former.


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[gordon777]

Salvation has three components to it--justification, sanctification, glorification--and it seems to me that "faith alone" applies to only one of them and works, in the power of the Spirit, to another; the latter proves the former.

Do you think you can sum up what Apostle Paul had to detail in many Epistles, in a quick sentence, without any scripture ?

Apostle Paul speaks of Abraham also, receiving the promises, ( for eternal life.) as in Isaac his seed would be called.

Abraham believed God could raise even the dead, and receiving Isaac as a figure, became the father of faith.

Abrahams faith is counted righteousness, and so is all theirs, who believe that God raised up Jesus Christ our Lord from the dead.

That faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, ( because His Gospel give us faith in His righteousness.) takes away dead evil works, and replaces them with good ones, as the old man dies with Christ, and the new man rises with Him.


Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all



Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[gordon777]

The conscience purged from dead works, does the works that are living. ( from the works of satan, to the works of Christ.)


Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But what about in "righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6).
Are works something, or nothing in regard to that argument?

The great error of faith without works teachers, is thinking Paul is speaking of present and future righteous works in Christ.

Paul is speaking of our past works without the faith of Jesus, before coming to God for forgiveness of sins.

None of our past works, no matter how good and innocent, commend us to God, as though He forgives and saves us, because we were good enough to be saved, while others were too evil.

That was the great error of the Jews that Saul of Tarsus led, where their works of the law apart from faith in God, made them worthy to inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul condemns works without faith, and James rebukes faith without works.

The simple fact is that James declares faith without works is dead, being alone, and cannot save nor justify any man without works of God's righteousness through Jesus' faith.

Until we are doing works of a pure heart with Jesus, none of our works are righteous with God.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The simple key is to know the difference in the gospel and doctrine of Christ between good works of our own righteousness without Christ, vs good works of God's righteousness with Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The great error of faith without works teachers, is thinking Paul is speaking of present and future righteous works in Christ.

I think Paul's point is no work, of any kind, past, present, or future, can in any way, shape, or form solicit the imputation of God's righteousness by which we become righteous in God's sight. That happens solely on the basis of one's faith in God's promise of a Son, apart from and without works of any kind. It is impossible to become righteous by being righteous. That is, literally, the works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I think Paul's point is no work, of any kind, past, present, or future, can in any way, shape, or form solicit the imputation of God's righteousness by which we become righteous in God's sight.

I've given the clear understanding of no man can be saved by past works of our own. Our past good works do not commend us to God as worthy of being saved, and our past bad works do not prevent us from being saved by God.

I think Paul's point is no work, of any kind, past, present, or future, can in any way, shape, or form solicit the imputation of God's righteousness by which we become righteous in God's sight.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

God says the opposite: Only those doing His righteousness are righteous with the Lord, and it's impossible to be righteous with God without doing His righteousness.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Abel was righteous because his works were righteous, and Cain was of the wicked one because His works were evil.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear.

Without respect of persons, whether claiming faith or not, we are all judged according to our works, not according to our faith alone.

That happens solely on the basis of one's faith in God's promise of a Son, apart from and without works of any kind. It is impossible to become righteous by being righteous.

As Scripture says, it is impossible to be righteous without doing righteousness.

That is, literally, the works justification gospel condemned in scripture.

The gospel James preaches is condemned in the faith alone writings of man, not in Scripture of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The gospel of justification by faith without works, condemns the gospel of justification by works with faith, which James preaches.

Faith alone without works is not the faith of Jesus, because the faith of Jesus is never without works:

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The faith alone gospel, preached in the name of Christ, accuses Jesus of ever having faith alone without doing the will of God.

And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

The family of faith alone without doing God's will, is not the family Jesus claims, who are only them doing His will.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The faith of Jesus believes from the heart unto His righteousness. Those who do not believe it is possible to walk as Jesus walked and always please Him, do not have the faith of Jesus.

Faith alone without works preaches it's own unbelief from the heart.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Sinless perfection, however, is nonsense

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts.

- particularly because no one knows what such perfection actually is practically

A scoffer: condemning something he knows nothing about.

Particularly believing it's not possible for himself, and so not for anyone else either. A judge of others based upon his own stated ignorance and failure.

and because nowhere in Scripture is such a condition held out as possible in practice to the born-again person.

The scoffing is about God's written word.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

They are made perfect in Christ

The faith of the double hearted: perfect but not perfect.

The delusion of faith alone without works: perfect in heart but sinful in life.

who alone is perfect.

God alone is perfect in heaven, who cannot even be tempted with sin, much less do it.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

The man Jesus was not perfect like God on the throne, because like us when He became a man in the flesh, He was tempted in all things, but without sinning.

We are called to the same virtue of Jesus on earth, to endure temptation without sinning unto the end.

We are not called to the perfection of God on the throne, so as not to even be tempted nor have a 'bad' thought.

The lie of scoffers, is that walking virtuously as Jesus, is being as God in heaven. Since that's not possible, then they conclude neither is it possible to walk as Jesus walked on earth.

It also accuses Jesus as being a sinner like themselves, because unlike God in heaven, He was tempted to sin.

They make having a perfect and whole heart toward God, into a perfection of mind that cannot be tempted.

They do so in order to declare having the virtue of Jesus and always pleasing God, to be impossible 'perfectionism'. This they do in order to justify walking after the flesh, as being inevitable.

It's the twisting of Scripture by unbelief in living righteously and holily walking as Jesus walked. It's not the belief of the heart unto doing righteousness, but the unbelieving heart unto continued unrighteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have decided that those in the 'Perfectly Sinless' doctrine are not worth pursuing with the truth. They are in that cult by reason of something that's going on inside of them that IMO is unreachable and God has turned them over to that thinking and there's nothing we can say or do to convince them of what the Bible plainly says about it. Pride is a superfortress and there are times when you leave it in God's hands to deal with. That is my opinion about it and I'm entitled to it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I have concluded in another thread, that arguing with another gospel of dead faith alone without works, is as useless as debating other kinds of dead faiths, that are not the faith of Jesus, whether Buddhist, Muslim, New Age, etc...

The saints in Christ Jesus can only reconfirm His faith is never without doing God's will, and move on.