Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[Tenchi]

Simply getting personally upset doesn't make it not so.

But I'm not upset. I'm direct, yes, and blunt, but not upset. Far from it. Are you? The ad hominem stuff in your posts suggest you might be.

Anyway, your response here is just an obvious deflection from my point.

Someone says they don't know what sinless perfection is, and mocks it.

Erego: They mock what they are ignorant of. Raw logic children can understand.

No, what I'm mocking is your - or anyone's claim - to know what perfection actually is. We humans can theorize about perfection but that's as close to understanding it as we can get. So, you don't know what sinless perfection is, not in any concrete, definitive and personal way, and this deserves to be pointed out.

Since you still don't know what sinless perfection is, after I have already explained it several times, I'll try once more.

The doctrine of sinless perfection in the Bible is, that there are two kinds of sinless perfection, one in heaven and one on earth. One is without temptation in heaven, the other with temptation on earth.

This is exactly why I used the word "nonsense" in reference to the idea of human sinless perfection. You simply assert that there are two kinds of sinless perfection without defining what it is you mean by "sinless perfection." But before you can assert that there are two kinds of sinless perfection - which is a very problematic assertion on its face - you ought to explain what, exactly, you're talking about. What does "without temptation" mean? Why should perfection be connected to temptation and not something else? How does perfection relate to the absence or presence of a thing? Isn't divine perfection its own thing, not improved or diminished by anything else, impervious to adjustment? These are just some of the many questions that need answering on the subject of perfection, but you haven't even begun to explain any of them. And so, it's silliness to talk about living in sinless perfection. You have no idea what it is you're talking about.

Here is sinless perfection of man on earth, that Jesus had as our example to follow:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

On what grounds have you decided this verse from Hebrews is legitimate grounds for your idea about "sinless perfection of man on earth"? Jesus was the God-Man (Colossians 1:15-20; Colossians 2:9; John 1:1-4), not merely a man like you or I. He sets the ideal example, which we all try in our finite, sin-corrupted, ignorant humanness to emulate.

What did it mean for Jesus to be "without sin"? What was his temptation like in type and strength, exactly? How was he able never to yield to temptation? What part in his sinlessness did his virgin birth and divine nature play? Lay it all out for us since you know what it is to be sinlessly-perfect as the God-Man was. I'm all ears (or eyes, actually). Until you do, you're just theorizing on something you have no proper understanding of.

Here is sinless perfection of God in heaven, that Jesus now has and is our hope to arrive at:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

The one is being tempted without sinning. The other is being without temptation to sin at all.

But this doesn't take into account God the Father's omniscience. He knows everything - including what it is to be tempted by sin, and to the fullest possible degree. To say that Jesus, who is God, knew something by way of his earthly experience that God the Father did not know is to deny God's omniscience. But if there is anything God does not know, He is not God.

Also, Jesus was not a man to whom a divine nature was added but was God taking on flesh (Philippians 2:5-8): He was the God-Man, not the Man-God. And so, when he was tempted in the flesh, he possessed a divine nature that mitigated against temptation such that he never succumbed to it. In other words, Jesus wasn't perfect because he resisted temptation successfully; he resisted temptation successfully because he was perfect.

One is tempted but sinless on earth, and the other is temptation-less altogether in heaven.

This is what happens when you have a poor conception of God and an unbiblical view of His nature. God cannot be tempted by evil whether in human form on earth, or seated on a throne in heaven. Christ was tempted in the flesh, as a man, but as God, he was never tempted. It is precisely because this was so that he never yielded to temptation like you and I do.

By saying all perfection is only as God in heaven, Who cannot be tempted, we make temptation on earth a sin: the sin of imperfection.

But the apostle James never made the location distinction you are. The verse of his that you cited does not qualify that God cannot be tempted with evil only in heaven. You have added this faulty idea, forced it into James' words.

Once that is lie is accepted, then we see how faith without works preachers erroneously declare all men sinners.

The lie, or, at least, the serious error, appears to be yours...

And it is impossible not to be sinning on earth, since all men are tempted on earth.

I think a person is saved by trusting in Christ as their Savior. About this, the Bible is very clear. But I don't think that being tempted to sin is sin.

This declares two things: Jesus was tempted as all men, but did not fall to temptation and sin like all men.

Because he was the God-Man, not just a man.

And being tempted can yet be without sin: Being tempted is not a sin.

Right. But Jesus was not perfect because he didn't sin; he didn't sin because he was perfect. He was, in fact, God.

Simply by being man in the flesh on earth, and not being God on the throne, is not a sin. Otherwise Jesus was also an 'imperfect sinner' on earth. There are no imperfect sinners, but only double-hearted ones.

??? Who has ever contended for such thinking on this thread? I sure haven't.

And so, the practise of sinless perfection on earth, is by walking as Jesus walked in the flesh, enduring all temptation sinlessly. Sinless perfection on earth is being tempted, but without falling to it and sinning, just like Jesus.

But you have no idea what it was for Jesus, the God-Man, to encounter and overcome temptation. You aren't God in the flesh. You can only imagine what being without sin is and do your best to love God as you should. You would have to see sin in all its myriad forms and subtleties as God does in order to be sinlessly-perfect as He is. But this would require being Him, which you aren't. All throughout a person's life God shows them how to love Him better and better, with fuller and fuller devotion and singleness of mind and heart. This is a process that reveals much that is sin in one's life that one once thought was perfectly all right. But this is what, in part, it is not to be God, but a fallible, sin-corrupted human being that He is slowly transforming over time into Christ's image.

The accusation against sinless perfection, as claiming to be as God in heaven, is false.

This isn't the accusation I've been making. It's a Strawman.

The teaching that temptation is sinful, because it is not perfect as God in heaven, is false.

Declaring that all men, which would include Jesus, are sinners by temptation alone, is false.

Declaring it is impossible not to sin on earth, because of being tempted, is false.

All Strawmen of my views.

And equating temptation to sin, with falling to sin and committing it, is the final artifice for declaring all men will unavoidably commit sin with the flesh, even as we cannot avoid being tempted in the flesh.

I don't argue this line. Temptation isn't sin. But all human beings commit sin, born-again or not. About this, as I've shown, the Bible is very clear. Now, the born-again person has been made free from the penalty and power of sin; they never have to sin, as they did before being saved (Romans 6). But being so freed doesn't guarantee that the believer will live in that freedom all the time. And so, we have Paul's letters to the Corinthian believers, and to the legalistic Galatian believers, and to the confused and sinning believers at Rome, and also the apostle John's critical words to the seven churches in his Revelation.

He was tempted, and was not as God in heaven without temptation, but He certainly was not a sinner by being tempted, much less by committing acts of temptation.

??? I have no idea what "committing an act of temptation" is.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Which doesn't have to do with the discussion preceding it. Eph 2:1-10 is all about God's grace. Note especially verses 1 and 2: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world." And on he goes talking about they once were. But then in verse 4 that changes to God's mercy and love, which he then says is shown in him making "us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved." The first ten verses are all about salvation and that it is a gift. The works he mentions are works in general, as in trying to merit salvation.

I can't agree.
The only works Paul ever wrote against were of the Law...primarily circumcision, but also dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping, and sabbath keeping.

Paul changes the discussion in verse 11 to that of the former separation between Jew and Gentile and how they have now been united as one in Christ. But this discussion is based on what was said in verses 1-10--"Therefore remember." He isn't talking about how one is saved in 2:11-22, but what was accomplished between Jew and Gentile based on their common salvation.

Separation by the Law.

None of those things justifies a person, which is likely what the discussion is about, although I don't think that was ever clarified (it almost never is).

Without even one of them, a man will be lost.
We won't be saved if we don't hear the message.
We won't be saved if we don't believe the message.
We won't be saved if we don't turn from sin. Etc.
All, accomplished by faith.

Men say they are or will be saved by faith, but faith in what?
That Jesus died for their past sins?
The devils believe that, and it won't help them a bit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.​

The doctrine of faith without works: grace and faith without law.

The gospel of lawlessness.

You may want to reword that.
A gospel of lawlessness sounds kind of...criminal.
How about "the gospel of Mosaic Lawlessness"?

 

[Hopeful 2]

But I'm not upset. I'm direct, yes, and blunt, but not upset. Far from it. Are you? The ad hominem stuff in your posts suggest you might be.

Anyway, your response here is just an obvious deflection from my point.



No, what I'm mocking is your - or anyone's claim - to know what perfection actually is. We humans can theorize about perfection but that's as close to understanding it as we can get. So, you don't know what sinless perfection is, not in any concrete, definitive and personal way, and this deserves to be pointed out.



This is exactly why I used the word "nonsense" in reference to the idea of human sinless perfection. You simply assert that there are two kinds of sinless perfection without defining what it is you mean by "sinless perfection." But before you can assert that there are two kinds of sinless perfection - which is a very problematic assertion on its face - you ought to explain what, exactly, you're talking about. What does "without temptation" mean? Why should perfection be connected to temptation and not something else? How does perfection relate to the absence or presence of a thing? Isn't divine perfection its own thing, not improved or diminished by anything else, impervious to adjustment? These are just some of the many questions that need answering on the subject of perfection, but you haven't even begun to explain any of them. And so, it's silliness to talk about living in sinless perfection. You have no idea what it is you're talking about.



On what grounds have you decided this verse from Hebrews is legitimate grounds for your idea about "sinless perfection of man on earth"? Jesus was the God-Man (Colossians 1:15-20; Colossians 2:9; John 1:1-4), not merely a man like you or I. He sets the ideal example, which we all try in our finite, sin-corrupted, ignorant humanness to emulate.

What did it mean for Jesus to be "without sin"? What was his temptation like in type and strength, exactly? How was he able never to yield to temptation? What part in his sinlessness did his virgin birth and divine nature play? Lay it all out for us since you know what it is to be sinlessly-perfect as the God-Man was. I'm all ears (or eyes, actually). Until you do, you're just theorizing on something you have no proper understanding of.



But this doesn't take into account God the Father's omniscience. He knows everything - including what it is to be tempted by sin, and to the fullest possible degree. To say that Jesus, who is God, knew something by way of his earthly experience that God the Father did not know is to deny God's omniscience. But if there is anything God does not know, He is not God.

Also, Jesus was not a man to whom a divine nature was added but was God taking on flesh (Philippians 2:5-8): He was the God-Man, not the Man-God. And so, when he was tempted in the flesh, he possessed a divine nature that mitigated against temptation such that he never succumbed to it. In other words, Jesus wasn't perfect because he resisted temptation successfully; he resisted temptation successfully because he was perfect.



This is what happens when you have a poor conception of God and an unbiblical view of His nature. God cannot be tempted by evil whether in human form on earth, or seated on a throne in heaven. Christ was tempted in the flesh, as a man, but as God, he was never tempted. It is precisely because this was so that he never yielded to temptation like you and I do.



But the apostle James never made the location distinction you are. The verse of his that you cited does not qualify that God cannot be tempted with evil only in heaven. You have added this faulty idea, forced it into James' words.



The lie, or, at least, the serious error, appears to be yours...



I think a person is saved by trusting in Christ as their Savior. About this, the Bible is very clear. But I don't think that being tempted to sin is sin.



Because he was the God-Man, not just a man.



Right. But Jesus was not perfect because he didn't sin; he didn't sin because he was perfect. He was, in fact, God.



??? Who has ever contended for such thinking on this thread? I sure haven't.



But you have no idea what it was for Jesus, the God-Man, to encounter and overcome temptation. You aren't God in the flesh. You can only imagine what being without sin is and do your best to love God as you should. You would have to see sin in all its myriad forms and subtleties as God does in order to be sinlessly-perfect as He is. But this would require being Him, which you aren't. All throughout a person's life God shows them how to love Him better and better, with fuller and fuller devotion and singleness of mind and heart. This is a process that reveals much that is sin in one's life that one once thought was perfectly all right. But this is what, in part, it is not to be God, but a fallible, sin-corrupted human being that He is slowly transforming over time into Christ's image.



This isn't the accusation I've been making. It's a Strawman.



All Strawmen of my views.



I don't argue this line. Temptation isn't sin. But all human beings commit sin, born-again or not. About this, as I've shown, the Bible is very clear. Now, the born-again person has been made free from the penalty and power of sin; they never have to sin, as they did before being saved (Romans 6). But being so freed doesn't guarantee that the believer will live in that freedom all the time. And so, we have Paul's letters to the Corinthian believers, and to the legalistic Galatian believers, and to the confused and sinning believers at Rome, and also the apostle John's critical words to the seven churches in his Revelation.



??? I have no idea what "committing an act of temptation" is.

You do realize, I hope, that you are defending sin.

 

[Tenchi]

You do realize, I hope, that you are defending sin.

No, I'm simply stating how things really are. I think Christians ought to be moving into a holier and holier life over time, as they love God with an ever-greater desire and cast out from their lives anything that hinders fellowship with Him. But this is a growth process, not an instantaneous state-of-affairs - just as the Bible indicates.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since you agree that faith without works is not alive to save, but dead, being alone.

Then how is faith apart from works different from faith without works?

It's not different. Righteousness (by faith) 'apart from works' is the same as righteousness (by faith) 'without works'.

The point being, a person does not get the righteousness that comes from God by working, but by believing, all by itself, thus the phrase "righteousness apart from works (or, without works)" Romans 4:6 Philippians 3:9.

That's different than James' 'faith alone' argument, which says no man will be saved by a faith that has no works to validate the presence of that faith, for it is by the evidence of faith - works - that a person is judged as being a sheep or a goat (Matthew 25:31-46).

The evidence doesn't make you a sheep. It merely shows if you are one or not. That is why you cannot be saved by a so-called faith that is not accompanied by works, for no works means no faith is present to produce those works. But most assuredly you are given the righteousness of God apart from and without works.

Is faith without or apart from works, faith alone or only?

No.
Insofar as what each argument means, 'faith without or apart from works' is not 'faith alone'.

You become righteous with the imputation of God's righteousness by faith apart from and without works (Romans 4:6, Phillipians 3:9). You are shown to posses the faith by which a person becomes righteous, by your works (James 2:18, James 2:24). And so James' argument about 'faith alone' is not the same as Paul's 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You do realize, I hope, that you are defending sin.

No, explaining it.

 

[grace2]

No, I'm simply stating how things really are. I think Christians ought to be moving into a holier and holier life over time, as they love God with an ever-greater desire and cast out from their lives anything that hinders fellowship with Him. But this is a growth process, not an instantaneous state-of-affairs - just as the Bible indicates.

Of course, but it cannot be achieved by worshipping a false god, a triune god.

 

[Tenchi]

Of course, but it cannot be achieved by worshipping a false god, a triune god.

There is no other true God but the triune one.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, explaining it.

Explaining how to defend sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Explaining how to defend sin.

Thankfully, we have the Bible to explain to us why God's people still sin. And so we can resist the abuse and condemnation of teachers who say you haven't been born again all along if you so much as sin in even the smallest, slightest way after receiving Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course, but it cannot be achieved by worshipping a false god, a triune god.

But it can be achieved by worshipping just a man, Jesus Christ?

 

[Deidr]

The same as a sinner can't save themselves, but need Someone else to forgive them first. The modern feel-good theology of 'forgiving ourselves', is false.

There is no difference between salvation and conversion. The point being made is that in this life, we are still being saved and converted, but only in the next life with resurrection like Jesus, will be forever saved and converted.

Until then we must endure temptation and keep ourselves from sinning, to continue being saved and converted unto the end.
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The end of our faith in Jesus in this life, is eternal salvation by obeying Him in the end.

Also, It's not being perfect of heart with God always unto the end, but being perfect with God in the end.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

How we are at the end, will be how we are forever.

That's why we should always be watchful and diligent in the faith, never thinking and acting like the end is not near, but rather is always at hand, whether by the grave or by His coming again in the air.

Sounds good but you may have to explain a couple of things like this:

"Also, It's not being perfect of heart with God always unto the end, but being perfect with God in the end."

Here's a question I have for you- if we received the Spirit of Christ and continually obey that will result in the quality of life.

So merely receiving His Spirit is not enough?
But the result of obedience to the Spirit which is Eternal quality of life now? Is that what you are saying?

And if that be true-
Then do you believe this scripture means that:
The one that says- The will of the father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

Because if we were already in His presence at the end of our lives then we "will never die"?

 

[Deidr]

The same as a sinner can't save themselves, but need Someone else to forgive them first. The modern feel-good theology of 'forgiving ourselves', is false.

There is no difference between salvation and conversion. The point being made is that in this life, we are still being saved and converted, but only in the next life with resurrection like Jesus, will be forever saved and converted.

Until then we must endure temptation and keep ourselves from sinning, to continue being saved and converted unto the end.
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The end of our faith in Jesus in this life, is eternal salvation by obeying Him in the end.

Also, It's not being perfect of heart with God always unto the end, but being perfect with God in the end.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

How we are at the end, will be how we are forever.

That's why we should always be watchful and diligent in the faith, never thinking and acting like the end is not near, but rather is always at hand, whether by the grave or by His coming again in the air.

And if you will can you elaborate on this:

"There is no difference between salvation and conversion. The point being made is that in this life, we are still being saved and converted, but only in the next life with resurrection like Jesus, will be forever saved and converted."

The Theological Vision of Dallas Willard (Part 2): An Evangelicalism for Kingdom Disciples – Missio Alliance

www.missioalliance.org

 

[Deidr]

The same as a sinner can't save themselves, but need Someone else to forgive them first. The modern feel-good theology of 'forgiving ourselves', is false.

There is no difference between salvation and conversion. The point being made is that in this life, we are still being saved and converted, but only in the next life with resurrection like Jesus, will be forever saved and converted.

Until then we must endure temptation and keep ourselves from sinning, to continue being saved and converted unto the end.
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

How was Jesus made Perfect?

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The end of our faith in Jesus in this life, is eternal salvation by obeying Him in the end.

explain eternal salvation

Also, It's not being perfect of heart with God always unto the end, but being perfect with God in the end.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

How we are at the end, will be how we are forever.

Please give a scripture for this

That's why we should always be watchful and diligent in the faith, never thinking and acting like the end is not near, but rather is always at hand, whether by the grave or by His coming again in the air.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thankfully, we have the Bible to explain to us why God's people still sin. And so we can resist the abuse and condemnation of teachers who say you haven't been born again all along if you so much as sin in even the smallest, slightest way after receiving Christ.

God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, murderers, or adulterers. (1 John 3:9)
You are bordering on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Servants of sin can't serve two masters.
They will hold to the one and despise the other. (Matt 6:24)
Sinners despise God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, murderers, or adulterers. (1 John 3:9)
You are bordering on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Servants of sin can't serve two masters.
They will hold to the one and despise the other. (Matt 6:24)
Sinners despise God.

Sin comes from the flesh, not from the Spirit. I showed you this in the Bible but you rejected God's word on this matter.

And only unbelievers serve sin. Saved, born again children of God do not serve sin, they struggle against sin - "the sin that so easily entangles" - Hebrews 12:1.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sin comes from the flesh, not from the Spirit.

Correct.

I showed you this in the Bible but you rejected God's word on this matter.

Think again.

And only unbelievers serve sin.

Correct again.

Saved, born again children of God do not serve sin, they struggle against sin - "the sin that so easily entangles" - Hebrews 12:1.

Born again children of God know there are always escapes from temptation, (1 Cor 10:13), and they trust God enough to wait for them.
They don't ever commit sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Born again children of God know there are always escapes from temptation, (1 Cor 10:13), and they trust God enough to wait for them.
They don't ever commit sin.

It's funny that in your theology the Bible educates and instructs born again people about God and the things they are to do that your theology says they will automatically do anyway, and will always do, no exceptions (or else they're not really born again).

 

[CherubRam]

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.