Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[Iconoclast]

Perserverance of the "saints" is a Calvinist myth not shared by many Calvinists.

Why lie?

 

[Free]

Your doctrines are all man-made becaseu you have nothing to back up from Jesus' own word.

Is that why you have so far refused to engage with any of the arguments and the numerous passages of scripture I've given on the Trinity?

I know you keep on coming up with Paul's teachings.

You guys are misusing and abusing Paul's words.

Not at all.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

First, notice that importance of verses 5 and 6--"even when we were dead in our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ," which was by grace, and then raised us to sit "with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." That entire process was entirely by grace and zero works. Second, notice in verse 10 that the good works come afterwards, "prepared beforehand" by God, which essentially agrees with James--works are evidence of justification, they don't justify us. That is all very straightforward.

This is not debatable, take it or leave it.

You got that right.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And, yet, that isn't taught anywhere in the NT. In fact, it is made very clear throughout that believers still struggle with sin.

1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.

1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
1Co 3:4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

1Co 6:7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

1Co 8:9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
1Co 8:10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
1Co 8:11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
1Co 8:12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

1Co 10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.
1Co 10:7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”
1Co 10:8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
1Co 10:10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1Co 10:12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
1Co 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

(All ESV.)

That is just a small sampling showing that true believers were struggling with sin. Remember, all the NT letters were written to new or relatively new believers, and it was necessary to show them how to live as Christians. This is no different than today. We still wage war against the flesh but our lives aren't to be characterized by willful, unrepentant sin.

True believers submit to the teaching of the apostles and pastors of their churches.
It is the false believers who don't.
The war goes on, but we are invincible in Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, God has called us to walk in the light.

Walking in darkness means walking in hate.


He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11

• But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness…

Those who walk in the light, have their sins cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves

Those who claim they have no sin deceive themselve

You cite scriptures well, but seem to be ignorant of 1 John 1:5,7.
If we walk "in God", there can be no sin on us.

Here are a few scriptures of my own...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Hopeful 2]

But without them Dead ones are still being woke by God.

You will have to elaborate on that.
Men hear before they act on either their belief or unbelief.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then every Christian, including yourself, has lied.

Not the ones who love God with all their hearts, strength, mind, and soul.
Only posers lie.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Your theory is not scriptural.
Here is what the scriptures say.
Ignore them to your own peril.
Those who walk in the light, have their sins cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Can't they say they "have no sin" after their cleansing?

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8

You have blended together what John was using to juxtapose those who walk in sin-darkness from those who walk in God-light.
Verses 7 & 8 are meant for different audiences.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves

...and walking in darkness.
You can't say you have fellowship with God either.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please show the scripture that says what you claim.

Sure...
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
I'll add...
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please show the scripture that says what you claim.

Sure...
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
I'll add...
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Free]

True believers submit to the teaching of the apostles and pastors of their churches.
It is the false believers who don't.
The war goes on, but we are invincible in Christ.

Yes, they do, and the apostles clearly state that although believers are justified, we all go through the process of sanctification, which includes struggling against sin.

Not the ones who love God with all their hearts, strength, mind, and soul.

Even them.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

You might want to rethink your position. John very strongly disagrees with you and gives a couple of severe warnings.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please show the scripture that says what you claim.

Sure...
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
I'll add...
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, they are works, but they are not works that God justifies you for doing. That's what you and, perhaps, many other people in the church don't understand.

You lack the revelation of justification through faith apart from works. That doesn't mean works don't, or can't accompany faith. It means justification occurs solely on the basis of faith not by the works that accompany faith. A person becomes righteous with the righteousness of God by having faith, not by doing righteous, obedient works. I can't make you have that revelation. Only God can do that. The revelation of that truth was so profound to Luther that he says he was born again in that moment of revelation.

My faith is in the manner of God's justification.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's your theology because you do not know what repentance means. Repentance does not mean being 100% sinless.

Half-turns are no turns.
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
Your version if repentance is repent. turn, repent, turn, repent, turn from it again and again.
It is of the world.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, they do, and the apostles clearly state that although believers are justified, we all go through the process of sanctification, which includes struggling against sin.

You won't find the false doctrine of gradual sanctification in the bible.

Even them.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)
You might want to rethink your position. John very strongly disagrees with you and gives a couple of severe warnings.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)
So, those who don't keep His commandments are the liars.
They can neither say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sins.

Those walking in God have neither problem

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You won't find the false doctrine of gradual sanctification in the bible.

Hebrews 10:14
14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.

'Being sanctified' is in the Greek Present tense. Here's an explanation of the Greek Present tense:

In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.

In contrast, Greek uses the aorist tense to show simple action. An aorist verb simply tells you that something happened, with no indication of how long it took. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.

Greek Tenses Explained – Ezra Project

ezraproject.com

See, you have a problem. In this one verse the author tells us that we have been made perfect one time and that perfecting does not need to be repeated. We know that because the verb 'made perfect' is in the Greek Perfect tense. At first this seems to defend your 'sinless perfection' doctrine. But he can't be talking about sinless perfection, but rather a legal declaration of perfection, because in the same breath that he says we are perfect he speaks of the presently ongoing action of being sanctified - the process of living the set apart life we have been set apart to live.

Perfect in the eyes of God, legally speaking, but progressing into actually being perfect. This is the revelation that set Luther free from the works justification theology of the Catholic church and started the Protestant Reformation. He says he was born again in that moment of revelation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Half-turns are no turns.
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)

Repentance is a change of mind. One that may or may not always result in a corresponding change of behavior because of the weakness of the flesh:

41“Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” Matthew 26:41

Your version if repentance is repent. turn, repent, turn, repent, turn from it again and again.
It is of the world.

No, it's actually an other worldly thing:

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! Matthew 18:21-22

He wants us to be that with others, because that's how God is with us. At the judgment our protection is the forgiveness and mercy of God in our frailty and weakness. Yours is your behavior. Yours is a works justification gospel. Ours is the gospel of forgiveness and grace, the gospel that actually saves.

 

[grace2]

Is that why you have so far refused to engage with any of the arguments and the numerous passages of scripture I've given on the Trinity?

I refuse to argue endlessly and repetitious, meaningless man-made doctrines.

Bye.

 

[JLB]

You cite scriptures well, but seem to be ignorant of 1 John 1:5,7.
If we walk "in God", there can be no sin on us.

Stating your opinion and tagging it with a scripture reference is deceitful at best…

Here is what 1 John 1:5-7 actually says —

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7


Point #1 —

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses those who walk in the light, of all sin.



Point #2

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

• Walking in the light refers to walking in love for our brother.
• Walking in darkness is walking in hate, rather than love as John plainly states in the next verses.

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

• He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.

• He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him

• But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness,

Walking in the light is walking in love.

Walking in darkness is walking in hate.

• Walking in the light IS NOT being perfectly sinless.

You have made up your own definitions and applied them to scripture and have created a false doctrine.


PLEASE READ THE ACTUAL WORDS OF SCRIPTURE —


Hopeful 2 — This applies to you since you claim to be sinless perfect: The truth is not in you.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


Hopeful 2 — This verse applies to you since you claim to be perfectly sinless: You make Jesus out to be a liar.

• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Hopeful 2 — This verse can not help you since you have deceived yourself into thinking you are perfectly sinless since the day you were baptized in water, until today.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I hope and pray you come to your senses and confess you sins daily and be cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness.

I hope and pray you repent of promoting false doctrine, which is heresy.






JLB

 

[Free]

I refuse to argue endlessly and repetitious, meaningless man-made doctrines.

Bye.

But you haven't shown that they're man-made. You claiming they are doesn't mean they are. If you're unwilling to discuss or debate it, then you should stop making that claim.

 

[grace2]

But you haven't shown that they're man-made. You claiming they are doesn't mean they are. If you're unwilling to discuss or debate it, then you should stop making that claim.

Bye, dear.