Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, we are to do them, but not for the purpose of being justified and absolved of sin guilt. That happens entirely on the basis of one's faith in the gospel message.

This is more doctrinal word play. If we're not doing the faith of Jesus, we don't have His faith nor Him in our hearts.

No, the "gospel of faith without doing", as you put it, means a person is justified and made right with God through faith in the promise of forgiveness through His Son, Jesus Christ and the receiving of an imputation of His righteousness, apart from and without the righteousness of our works.

This is true pertaining to our past works of righteousness without God. This does not apply to present works of His righteousness with God.

The faith without works doctrine makes no difference between doing works of our own righteousness, which are vain, and doing His works of righteousness by His faith living within us.

That is why the teachers of the faith alone doctrine always speak of their own works, rather than those of God.

A person becomes righteous in God's sight by receiving a righteousness from God outside of himself by which he is then declared righteous and qualified to enter the kingdom of God.

Faith without works doctrine is words alone. Jesus' faith is doing the word. There is no faith of Jesus that is not pleasing the Father.

The Bible says if we're not doing His righteousness, we are not being righteous at all. This is the principle of God and life not found in the doctrine of faith alone.

In no way can we produce the perfect righteousness God requires for one to enter into the kingdom of God.

And so, once again the foundation of faith without works, is unbelief.

The faith alone gospel preaches we cannot do God's righteousness daily walking with Jesus. Nor can we produce God's perfect fruit of righteousness and true holiness.

Peter says if any man is not doing these things added to faith, then as Paul says, he is the unrighteous that shall not inherit the kingdom of God

It can only be given to a person as a gracious gift, given to a person when they believe in and receive the gospel message of redemption through the forgiveness of sin in Christ.

Gracious words without works, are gracious words only.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

No one graciously resurrects themselves to life by their own doctrine of faith. Doctrine alone doesn't resurrect us unto life, but doing the word obtains the reward.

Being saved is not by reward of any past works done, but inheriting the promise is by reward for doing the works of faith and walking as Jesus walked in the end.

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

If we're not serving the Lord, but still serving sin unto death, then we will not be counted worthy of the reward to walk forever with Him in white.

We can be saved and justified by our own faith alone all we wish in this life, but that faith ends in the grave with our dead bodies, and will not resurrect us unto life with God forever.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[RBDERRICK]

God is light.
In Him is no sin at all.
If we say we are in Him, there can be no sin in us either.

It's incredible isn't it, how the unrighteous can so shamelessly preach their love, while shunning God's righteousness and true holiness.

The same One that says love our neighbors, also says be ye holy in all manner of life, as the Lord God is holy.

The sinful imperfect love of man, is not the sinlessly perfect love of the true God and Jesus Christ.

The Christian religion of faith without works teaches it's own love, grace, and salvation with sins of the world.

The gospel of Jesus Christ preaches and promises being saved from sinning.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It's incredible isn't it, how the unrighteous can so shamelessly preach their love, while shunning God's righteousness and true holiness.
The same One that says love our neighbors, also says be ye holy in all manner of life, as the Lord God is holy.
The sinful imperfect love of man, is not the sinlessly perfect love of the true God and Jesus Christ.
The Christian religion of faith without works teaches it's own love, grace, and salvation with sins of the world.

The gospel of Jesus Christ preaches and promises being saved from sinning.

Amen, and then shows how to go about that life from step one to infinity.
God is soooo good.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we're not doing the faith of Jesus, we don't have His faith nor Him in our hearts.

Very few Christians disagree with this.

The point is, “doing the faith of Jesus“ is not how you are made righteous with the righteousness of God. That happens entirely and solely when you believe God’s promise about his Son. Just as that was true for Abraham our example of “righteousness apart from works”.

Works of faith are the result, and therefore, the evidence that you have the faith by which a person receives the righteousness that is from God. But some Christians think they work righteousness to be righteous. No. We work righteousness because we are already righteous with the righteousness that we received by faith apart from and without works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The faith without works doctrine makes no difference between doing works of our own righteousness, which are vain, and doing His works of righteousness by His faith living within us.

That’s because justification occurs entirely by having your sins forgiven and receiving the imputation of God’s righteousness, not by doing works of righteousness, either by faith or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So much for gradual sanctification...eh?

Your tense and mood have convinced you that there is no need to obey God perfectly.
Is "born again" gradual too?

The Greek tense and mood used in Hebrews 10:14 is hardly mine. And they don't mean you don't need to obey God perfectly. It means you're becoming in practice what God has already made you in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Spoken to a man who was walking in the flesh, and not walking in the Spirit.
Nobody before Christ's resurrection could walk in the Spirit, all the time.
They couldn't yet be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.
They couldn't yet be raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Ah, yes, the ol' 'that was under the old covenant' argument.
But Paul says the same thing during the New Covenant:

17But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. Romans 6:17-19

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is true pertaining to our past works of righteousness without God. This does not apply to present works of His righteousness with God.

I thought you understood that what shows you are a sheep does not make you a sheep:

What shows you are a sheep does not make you a sheep.

So why are you saying present works of righteousness with God make you a righteous person?

 

[JLB]

God is light.
In Him is no sin at all.
If we say we are in Him, there can be no sin in us either.

You are attempting to ignore the scriptures I gave and use your own opinion rather than scripture.

This has been your practice since you have been here.


You ignored the actual words of scripture, in favor of the slanted doctrinal position you hold, and thus you have interjected a meaning of the word “light” to mean “sinlessly perfect” when it plainly refers to love; walking in love… in contrast to walking in darkness.

• He who loves his brother abides in the light…
• But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness…

He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11







JLB

 

[JLB]

Too bad according to you no man can say he has no sin.
Only the wrath of God abides in everyone.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Greek tense and mood used in Hebrews 10:14 is hardly mine. And they don't mean you don't need to obey God perfectly. It means you're becoming in practice what God has already made you in Christ.

Ever met anyone who met your criterion?
I mean, ever fully manifested what they were meant to become?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Ah, yes, the ol' 'that was under the old covenant' argument.

It is true, isn't it?

But Paul says the same thing during the New Covenant:
17But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. Romans 6:17-19

Paul uses the concept of a past familiarity, citing a past weakness, to make a present strength known.
The point?...
"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." (Rom 6:20)
...that sin is in the past.

Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are attempting to ignore the scriptures I gave and use your own opinion rather than scripture.

Your interpretation of 1 John 1 only considers one aspect of it.
The aspect addressed to those walking in darkness/sin. (verses 6,8,and 10)
Open your eyes and see the other aspect, addressing those who walk in light/God. (Verses 5,7,and 9)
There is no sin in God.
If we are in God, and nobody cannot introduce sin into Him, then we must be sin-free too.
Your POV ends up with nobody walking in God/light.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Thanks be to God we can choose not to walk in sin/darkness.
Instead, choose God/light !

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, I agree with the Bible that faith without works is dead, being alone.

Then stop teaching another doctrine of how faith without works saves and justifies any man.

It plainly says that. What I disagree with is the teaching that says faith + doing works is what makes you righteous.

Then you don't believe the Bible that says only those doing righteous are being righteous with Christ.

Faith + works shows that you are righteous with the righteousness of God (James 2:18), not makes you righteous with the righteousness of God.

I see. So being made righteous is separate from being righteous.

Once again, this is a faith alone doctrine, that preaches we can be seen as righteous, without doing it.

John calls it trying to say we love someone without loving them.

With God of the Bible, there is no faith, love, nor righteousness without doing it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Faith + works shows that you are righteous with the righteousness of God (James 2:18), not makes you righteous with the righteousness of God.

This is the teaching of the natural man, that does not see nor receive the things of the Spirit in the Bible.

It teaches that works of faith, are only those outward shows of the body.

It teaches a 'temporal timeline' must be between faith and all works. And so, it's taught that salvation and justification can only be by inner faith without works. This is the 'inescapable' conclusion of natural reasoning. It's not based upon Bible spiritual teaching, but opposes it by carnal understanding.

While it is plainly true that we can have inner faith without doing any outward works bodily, it is not true in the Bible, that we can have any inner faith without doing any inward works spiritually.

The reformation that Jesus Christ brings to His own people, is the simple commandment for us to first cleanse with our cup and platter, that all our works of faith, both inward and outward, may be good in the spirit, soul, and body.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The only reason any man does a sinful work of the flesh, is because of lusting first within the heart. Lusting is judged by the Lord Jesus as a work. A committed act. Therefore, the first works we do by faith, is to be repent of dead works within by lust and vain imagination, which is idolatry.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The truth of the Bible is that works begin within our spirit, not with our body.

The natural man's faith + works doctrine, where works are defined only as outward, dismisses the first works commanded by Jesus as foolish, just like the Pharisees did. And the only hope they have in this life, is to be as righteous as the Pharisees by outward works alone with inward filthiness of the spirit.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus isn't telling us to increase our outward works to make us more righteous than Pharisees, but rather simply to do the first works and cleanse within the platter. Then we have the greater righteousness of God to do good both on the inside and the outside.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

When any Christian begins to fight the good war of casting down all the fiery thoughts for sin and unrighteousness, that the devil shoots into our minds to do evil, then that Christian will certainly know that there is no such thing as faith alone without works or doing the word of God.

That's because the single hearted saint is always working to take no thought for sin from the devil.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

You become righteous by faith, all by itself apart from your works (Romans 4:6, Philippians 3:9). But this faith that justifies all by itself apart from your works is the faith that will then be seen in what you do, just as that was true for Abraham, or else it's not really faith, and that's why faith without works can not save you. It's not really faith.

You're now just repeating your doctrine of faith without works. I've already compared it to the Bible and shown how many ways it's not the teaching of faith in the Bible.

If you want to now try answering any of my challenges specifically, to show any fault in them, rather than just talking around them by repeating yourself, then I'd be glad to hear it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

2) Apart from works:

6 ...to whom God credits righteousness (through faith in Jesus Christ-see above) apart from works: Romans 4:6

Already corrected once, to which you don't respond.

Once more. Nothing here says "Faith apart from works". It is teaching the righteousness of God is apart from and not by the works of man's own righteous will without the faith of Jesus and God.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

These are the works without the faith and Spirit of God inwardly, that Paul condemns and calls 'works of the law' and 'works of our own righteousness'.

Paul is not speaking of our good works of faith by Jesus Christ; otherwise, he would be contradicting the Bible, and be as big a sinner as some 'faith alone' Christians say was.

None of any man's own works, before coming to God, will ever commend him to God, and deserving of being saved and justified by Him.

The only verses in the Bible that say the words "Faith without works", is to judge it dead.

And so that is where faith 'without works/apart from works' comes from in scripture.

Not Bible Scripture, but your own writing of your own book.

I don't read anywhere in the Bible where faith without works/apart from works saves and justifies any man. And no man has quoted the Bible anywhere saying it does.

I read it aplenty in another book of another gospel.

The righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ, apart from works.

Righteousness is imputed without works of our own to justify it. Once imputed, all our works become clean and new and of God. A clean fresh start and beginning.

This is not taught by the sinner's gospel, where no man is doing righteousness of God at any time, much less all the time.

Without those works of God's righteousness done in our spirit first and also our body, then it's not the righteousness of God imputed, but that of our own selves by doctrinal fiat.

Believers of the Bible knows this, because the Bible says there is no righteousness without doing it.

We know that we have the righteousness of God that comes through faith in Christ apart from works by our works:

Correct. Apart from our own works of our own righteousness. Not apart from our now doing His righteousness.

Once again, the faith without works doctrine is so extreme, that works themselves become anathema, so that the only works they ever teach are of man's own righteousness.

18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. James 2:18

The Bible is not saying there is faith without deeds that can be shown.

It's not a faith-test comparison between worse or better faith.

It's a declaration that such faith without works is no faith at all.

If you disagree with this, don't forget that you yourself agreed that which shows you to be a sheep does not make you a sheep.

Outward appearances do not prove inward truth.

Doing the truth begins within the heart. As necessary we must continually purify ourselves of tempting thoughts of unrighteousness.

These are the first works of Jesus' faith, that the natural doctrine of faith + works is blind to.

Faith without works is without the first works of faith, and is not the faith of Jesus Christ.

We can't show anyone those works we do within by the Spirit, but God, the devil, and we see them, before we ever do anything outwardly.

The natural man does not believe in the Spirit. The natural Christian does not believe in doing the works of the Spirit.

And so both believe works are outwardly only.

And so you agree that there is no such thing as becoming a righteous sheep by having faith, and acting like a sheep.

Not first by outward works, but only first by inward works of the spirit.

We first become righteous sheep by works, to love God with all the heart inwardly, before showing ourselves righteous sheep to our neighbors.

Faith alone without works in the heart, is immediately taken away by Satan, because that faith is not working to resist him in the heart:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

This is the spiritual first work of faith, to fulfill the first commandment in our soul.

. Works show you to be righteous.

Outward works show us to be righteous with others. Inward works show us to be righteous with God, the devil, and ourselves.

The natural man's doctrine of works only being by show of the body, is not the doctrine and law of the Spirit in the Bible.

So long as works are only outward, then the Christian will only be a Pharisee at most.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Walking in the light does not mean "sinless perfection" as the scripture I gave so plainly indicates.

It does, if we are walking in the light as He walks.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The good news of Jesus Christ is power and promise to walk in the light even as He walked.

Walking in our own light with sinful imperfection is the promise of another gospel.

The doctrine against being sinless and perfect with God from a whole heart, is a gospel of unbelief, that does not believe from the heart unto God's righteousness, nor believes we can do His righteousness at all.

It preaches a sinfully imperfect religious conversion, where all things are not of God, but only more things are than before.

It goes on to natural humanism of trying to sin less, but never not sin at all. It does not believe the commandment Jesus can even be obeyed to go and sin no more. That's not the faith of Jesus that does keep His commandments with love from a pure heart.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

• the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses those who walk in the light.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

The way we are forgiven our sins is by confessing our sins.

• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

John plainly repeats again saying... if we say we have no sin, we make Him a liar.


Sorry but your "claim" that you are have no sin is false.


Walking in darkness means walking in hate, not "sinless perfection".

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11





JLB

Now you're just repeating yourself and talking over challenges.

If you want to respond to any specific challenge i make to your points, and show how my reasoning of Scripture is faulty, then I'd be glad to hear it. Otherwise, I don't insult myself by trying to talk to deaf ears.

 

[JLB]

Your interpretation of 1 John 1 only considers one aspect of it.
The aspect addressed to those walking in darkness/sin. (verses 6,8,and 10)
Open your eyes and see the other aspect, addressing those who walk in light/God. (Verses 5,7,and 9)
There is no sin in God.
If we are in God, and nobody cannot introduce sin into Him, then we must be sin-free too.
Your POV ends up with nobody walking in God/light.

I quoted 1 John 1 and 1 John 2.


He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

• He who loves his brother abides in the light.

walking and abiding in the light refers to walking in love, not being perfectly sinless.

• But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness

Walking in darkness refers to walking in hate.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Thanks be to God we can choose not to walk in sin/darkness.
Instead, choose God/light !

Thanks be to God if we sin, we have an advocate in heaven that is the propitiation for our sin, in which if we should sin, we can confess our sin and He is faithful to forgive us.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2





JLB