SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[GodsGrace]

Believing is a work.
Repenting is a work.

They are both something WE do.

Hi Mungo, been too busy but for nice reasons.

I wish you would explain better what you mean by works.

Your comment above sounds very calvinistic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Assuming you are correct, why is the Catholic church changing? Didn't they get it right the first time? Or, perhaps they finally recognize some of the errors that have infiltrated the church over the centuries and are finally taking appropriate steps?

This is how I see the history of the church.

The Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers had it right.
Some heresies entered into the church but they were quickly responded to and in some cases Councils were held to state unequivocally what the church believed. For example, the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity.

Somewhere along the line, about 325AD when Constantine declared that it was no longer illegal to belong to the Christian church, he got involved with the church and the church got involved with politics. I'm not a historian, but the church must have been so happy to not be illegal anymore and the persecutions would end.

Then in 380AD the Emperor Theodosius declared Christianity to be the religion of the state.

Christianity becomes the religion of the Roman Empire - February 27, 380 | DW | 16.11.2009

The decree of the Eastern Roman Emperor Theodosius I had far-reaching consequences: It bound the Judeo-Christian roots of the European continent to Greco-Roman culture.

www.dw.com

Then the dark ages, then the renaissance and all the political turmoil that ensued.
Then the reformation.
The CC trying to hold on to its power.

Then here we are today, and yes, I do believe the church is aware of the mistakes it has made, some for which it has apologized publicly, and it is indeed trying to correct itself -

If the CC were the way it is now when I got saved, I probably never would have left.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't want to take this too much further off topic but the very definition of absolution is to release from guilt, obligation, or punishment so isn't that what the priest is doing when he gives absolution?

Yes, it is.
But there could be restitution too.
Some persons that become saved give back items they've stolen, apologized to persons they hurt and so forth.

I don't find that priests are very big on restitution. They could give some advice or other, but they can't force a person to take specific action.

I think being sorrowful for the sin is a big factor in giving absolution.
I mean, I KNOW it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

to be fair, modern Protestant churches have changed, also. I grew up Presbyterian (PCUSA), which...again, is dying. And yet...

for a while there, lots and lots of people were Presbyterian. I think membership peaked in the early 60s? So...one sees this in pretty much every long term, established religious organization ever...

society changes. the churches changes. the church may be in a position to exert some influence over society, so then society changes. and then the church changes. who will win? LOL

Overall, the trend seems to confirm the secularization hypothesis. Scientific and psychological explanations win out over religious, supernatural explanations. The shrink, not the priest. The scientists, not the ministers. That kind of thing. And so...

back to PCUSA. Unlike the catholic church, PCUSA and I think (?) most other modern Presbyterian denominations viewed marriage as a -contract- , not a -sacrament- . That's why even way back, when one saw Protestants take over an area, suddenly divorces and legal separations became possible, even if initially the process excluded all but the upper classes. -Contracts- can be dissolved. In traditional Catholicism, marriages could be -annulled- , because the only way out was to declare the sacrament somehow invalid or defective to the point of being non-binding. And now...

Marriage was/is understood as a contract, albeit one that occurs in an important religious and social context. Children were understood to be important, but not -required- as part of the important contract. So...over time...Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and other mainstream Protestant groups gave the a-OK to contraception (first for married couples), then to abortion under limited circumstances. Divorce is still understood to be undesirable, but permissible when needed...generally not for elders and other church leaders (at least, that's how it was when I was a kid). Fast forward...

after decades upon decades of that sort of thinking, plus social changes and secularization -within- the established church...the higher ups of PCUSA (and some other churches) decided that same sex unions could be celebrated and affirmed within the church. Marriage is a -contract- , and as society became more accepting of same sex unions, the logic seems to be that the church should be there to affirm the expanding concept of the -contract- . Something like that, anyway.

Pope John Paul II has an excellent essay about "the culture of death." He basically juxtaposes modern culture -- which, to him, include many more "progressive" Protestant groups -- and the catholic church. Modern culture has a death wish, as shown by homosexuality, divorce, abortion, contraception, materialism, suicide, drug and alcohol abuse. The Catholic Church -- again, its a Pope writing, so this is the 1 true church, etc. -- is a beacon of light in a a dark and dying world. Agree, disagree, or...just take a moment to read and reflect, without forming a strong opinion...it is a beautiful essay. As a Christian, I enjoy it. As a Christian who grew up in a now dying Protestant denomination, the essay makes me think about how powerless and pointless church is without the saving power of Christ and The good news.

rambling...point is (I have one, I promise), all established religious groups exist within a social context. There's an entire subfield, the sociology of religion, dedicated to the interplay of religion and the rest of society. I think...the Catholic church has done better in -some- respects with retaining The good news and a sense of the sacred, of the otherworldly vs many Protestant groups. And then...

Jesus saves -individuals- . A Protestant church I attended here and there would say that their job was to facilitate Jesus' work in peoples' lives. He saves, they're there to help make it happen. The Catholic church is open about the very real possibility of -not- making heaven, not even making purgatory...

but the Church makes the sacraments available, makes the doctrine and dogma available and accessible, too.

Great post CE.
I agree 100% with your assessment of our situation, by our I mean all of Christianity.

Here's the Encyclical you mentioned by Pope John Paul II

Evangelium Vitae (25 March 1995) | John Paul II

Encyclical Letter Evangelium Vitae (25 March 1995) on the Value and Inviolability ¶ of Human Life

www.vatican.va

 

[Cooper]

Believing is a work.
Repenting is a work.

They are both something WE do.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says faith is a GIFT.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace. In other words, I'm a Protestant.

Everyone is under grace Jaybo.
Without God's grace no one would be saved.

It is God's grace that made the Father to sacrifice the Son so as to be our atonement.
Ephesians 8 for we are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH.
Our faith saves us but only because of God's grace toward us.

What you were speaking of was fasting and praying for forgiveness of sin.
Could you think of any verses in the OT or NT that refer to fasting to forgive sins?
Ezra 8:21 ??

 

[GodsGrace]

Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is because such sins cut us off from God and, for some grave sins, from the Church.
For all sins we need to repent.
The following is from Catholic Answers:

Question:​

What are the ways to have a venial sin forgiven?

​

Answer:​

Venial sins can be forgiven in several ways:

• The sacrament of confession
• Worthy reception of Communion
• Sincere act of contrition
• Penance
• Fasting
• Almsgiving

Could you think of any scripture that states that
fasting and almsgiving is for the forgiveness of sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

About John 20:22.
Here we have Jesus who once was dead but now is alive. Before Jesus ascended into heaven he appeared to Mary at the tomb, he appeared to two men on the road to Emmaus and then he appeared to the disciples in a locked room.

John 20:19-23 It was the evening of the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked because they were afraid of the Jews. Jesus came and stood among them. He told them, "Peace be with you." When Jesus had said this, he breathed on them and told them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people's sins, they are retained."

This authority to either forgive people's sins or to retain them was given only to the disciples by Christ after he had died and risen, before he ascended into heaven, and before Pentecost. As John Gill says, "Papists show their impudence and wickedness, by imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them."(Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13.)

Men living today do not have this authority. It was given only to the disciples.
1. The promise is not for all time.
2. It was only given to the apostles.
3. It is still God who ultimately forgives sin, the promise to the apostles is that whoever they forgive, it will be forgiven them.
4. We are told to seek the gifts of the Spirit, and the power of forgiveness is not one of them.
5. Jesus was able to forgive sins because he is God.

Even the scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy when he forgave people their sins. They said: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” (Luke 5:21)
.

Why would the authority be given only to the Apostles?

If every other doctrine was passed down by the Apostles because they knew Jesus and how He wanted the church to be...why wouldn't the authority to forgive sin also be included?

Could you explain item 4 on you list better?
4. We are told to seek the gifts of the Spirit, and the power of forgiveness is not one of them.

I think Jesus said some things that are not so easy to understand.
I think John 20:22 is one of them.

It might have another meaning....

 

[Mungo]

Hi Mungo, been too busy but for nice reasons.

I wish you would explain better what you mean by works.

Your comment above sounds very calvinistic.

My comment was more about what protestant like jaybo mean by works.
They seem to mean anything we do.
In which case believing and repenting are works.

The definition of work(s) from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary has 9 different definitions.
In this context I think the first two are relevant:
1 activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.
2 such activity as a means of earning income.

Since believing and repenting are mental activities they are work under this definition.

However when Paul uses the word work in the context of salvation, for example in Eph 2:8, I believe he means a specific type of work - works of the law.
For example:
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. (Rom 3:28)

yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.(Gal 2:16)

In Romans 2:25 he writes
Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
And in Gal 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."
Clearly by works of the law Paul is referring to the Jewish law.

Works of the law would be the second definition in the COED where we try and earn salvation.
In Rom 4:4 Paul explains "Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due." (Rom 6:23)

Works done under the law are those done under some sort of legal contract that try to put an obligation on God – to make salvation our due. We try to earn our salvation

If we work, as for an employer, expecting wages as our due then we will be judged under that Law and will always be found wanting and will be condemned.

That is why we can only receive salvation as a gift. It cannot be earned.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I could say more on this but I think that is enough.

 

[GodsGrace]

'Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.' (John 20:22).

Was Christ talking to himself when he said this? Was he mistaken when he made this promise, on behalf of the Father?

I'm not too sure what Jesus meant by this statement in John.
It sure does sound like Jesus meant that the Apostles could forgive sin.
But MAN could not forgive a sin.
This is why Jesus was despised...the Pharisees, Sanhedrin, believe that He made Himself out to be God because He (Jesus) thought He could forgive sin.

 

[Mungo]

Could you think of any scripture that states that
fasting and almsgiving is for the forgiveness of sin?

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g. Ex 34:28, Lk 2:37, and as you pointed out Ez 8:21). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Jesus also said "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Mt 16:24). We deny ourselves because we need to learn to conquer our desires. Paul says “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you” (Col 3:5).

But more than just simple denial sometimes it is good to be more actively penitential. Paul said “I pommel my body and subdue it” (1Cor 9:27) and “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24). Penitential acts are part of what we do to configure ourselves to Christ who suffered for us.

As regards alms giving:
Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold. For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life (Tobit 12:8-9)

 

[Mungo]

Ephesians 2:8-9 says faith is a GIFT.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)
.

See post #149 above

 

[GodsGrace]

My comment was more about what protestant like jaybo mean by works.
They seem to mean anything we do.
In which case believing and repenting are works.

The definition of work(s) from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary has 9 different definitions.
In this context I think the first two are relevant:
1 activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.
2 such activity as a means of earning income.

Since believing and repenting are mental activities they are work under this definition.

However when Paul uses the word work in the context of salvation, for example in Eph 2:8, I believe he means a specific type of work - works of the law.
For example:
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. (Rom 3:28)

yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.(Gal 2:16)

In Romans 2:25 he writes
Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
And in Gal 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."
Clearly by works of the law Paul is referring to the Jewish law.

Works of the law would be the second definition in the COED where we try and earn salvation.
In Rom 4:4 Paul explains "Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due." (Rom 6:23)

Works done under the law are those done under some sort of legal contract that try to put an obligation on God – to make salvation our due. We try to earn our salvation

If we work, as for an employer, expecting wages as our due then we will be judged under that Law and will always be found wanting and will be condemned.

That is why we can only receive salvation as a gift. It cannot be earned.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I could say more on this but I think that is enough.

Actually, I believe that both Catholics and Protestants have the same understanding of works, as you've outlined above. Very well, I might add !

The problem, as I see it, is that nowadays the word WORKS has become an undesirable word in the language of Christianity. Some posters sound like we need to do NOTHING after salvation but believe. I think this is called Jesus only or Faith only - both of which are not correct.

I'd say this, just to further clarify (maybe):

We are not saved by works.
Any work...either of the law or anything we do for salvation.

We need FAITH FIRST.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.

AFTER we have faith in God,
THEN
Works become necessary.

That would be the kind of works or good deeds that both Paul and Jesus spoke about:
Feeding the hungry, continuing in our good deeds, etc.

Works of the Law are no longer necessasry.
Works for salvation without faith are not efficacious.

Faith and Works are necessary for our salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g. Ex 34:28, Lk 2:37, and as you pointed out Ez 8:21). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Jesus also said "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Mt 16:24). We deny ourselves because we need to learn to conquer our desires. Paul says “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you” (Col 3:5).

But more than just simple denial sometimes it is good to be more actively penitential. Paul said “I pommel my body and subdue it” (1Cor 9:27) and “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24). Penitential acts are part of what we do to configure ourselves to Christ who suffered for us.

As regards alms giving:
Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold. For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life (Tobit 12:8-9)

Protestants believe that Jesus did it all when He died on the cross.
At the Scala Santa down in Rome, persons will climb on their knees and pray.
This is good if they feel it's necessary.
Frankly, I also don't believe this will add to our salvation but it should be done if someone is called to do this.
As I've often said, if Jesus sacrifice is not sufficient, then why did He have to die?

But what I want to say is that, yes, I see fasting in the Ot and NT.
I just can't seem to find where it's done for forgiveness.
I see it as being done for power.

I also agree, BTW, that it's sometimes good to deprive ourselves of something silly (or important) to understand that man does not live by bread alone...
Sometimes we too eagerly shove off our need to do something for humanity because "Jesus did it all".

 

[Mungo]

Actually, I believe that both Catholics and Protestants have the same understanding of works, as you've outlined above. Very well, I might add !

The problem, as I see it, is that nowadays the word WORKS has become an undesirable word in the language of Christianity. Some posters sound like we need to do NOTHING after salvation but believe. I think this is called Jesus only or Faith only - both of which are not correct.

I'd say this, just to further clarify (maybe):

We are not saved by works.
Any work...either of the law or anything we do for salvation.

We need FAITH FIRST.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.

AFTER we have faith in God,
THEN
Works become necessary.

That would be the kind of works or good deeds that both Paul and Jesus spoke about:
Feeding the hungry, continuing in our good deeds, etc.

Works of the Law are no longer necessasry.
Works for salvation without faith are not efficacious.

Faith and Works are necessary for our salvation.

I think the problem comes because some Protestants claim baptism is a work.
But it's not a work of the law. It's an act of obedience and an expression of faith in which we are saved (Mk 16:16).
Baptism is not something we do after we are saved like good deeds.

 

[Cooper]

See post #149 above

I go with the Bible.

 

[Mungo]

Protestants believe that Jesus did it all when He died on the cross.
At the Scala Santa down in Rome, persons will climb on their knees and pray.
This is good if they feel it's necessary.
Frankly, I also don't believe this will add to our salvation but it should be done if someone is called to do this.
As I've often said, if Jesus sacrifice is not sufficient, then why did He have to die?

But what I want to say is that, yes, I see fasting in the Ot and NT.
I just can't seem to find where it's done for forgiveness.
I see it as being done for power.

I also agree, BTW, that it's sometimes good to deprive ourselves of something silly (or important) to understand that man does not live by bread alone...
Sometimes we too eagerly shove off our need to do something for humanity because "Jesus did it all".

Jesus did all that was necessary to atone for our offence against God. But, as I suggested earlier, sin has consequences other than the offence against God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the problem comes because some Protestants claim baptism is a work.
But it's not a work of the law. It's an act of obedience and an expression of faith in which we are saved (Mk 16:16).
Baptism is not something we do after we are saved like good deeds.

I don't know what capacity you have.
You're extremely knowledgeable.
Do you know that the CC has THOUGHT about baptizing adults but receives too much push back?

So let's get infant baptism out of the way for now.

Baptism is not a work of the law.
It is obedience to what Jesus commanded in Matthew 28.
Agreed.

But you stated that baptism is not something we do AFTER we are saved like good deeds.

I would say that it is....
A person has to come to believe in God and have faith in Him and THEN he is baptized.

Would you agree with that?
It certainly is true for adults in the CC that are going through RCIA...
Baptism is at the end of their conversion.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the problem comes because some Protestants claim baptism is a work.
But it's not a work of the law. It's an act of obedience and an expression of faith in which we are saved (Mk 16:16).
Baptism is not something we do after we are saved like good deeds.

I don't know what capacity you have.
You're extremely knowledgeable.
Do you know that the CC has THOUGHT about baptizing adults but receives too much push back?

So let's get infant baptism out of the way for now.

Baptism is not a work of the law.
It is obedience to what Jesus commanded in Matthew 28.
Agreed.

But you stated that baptism is not something we do AFTER we are saved like good deeds.

I would say that it is....
A person has to come to believe in God and have faith in Him and THEN he is baptized.

Would you agree with that?
It certainly is true for adults in the CC that are going through RCIA...
Baptism is at the end of their conversion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus did all that was necessary to atone for our offence against God. But, as I suggested earlier, sin has consequences other than the offence against God.

I agree.
Even Protestants know that sin offends other persons, society, ourselves and God.

I just have to say that if we confess our sin (however that would be), with sorrow and humility,
then that sin will be forgiven.

Whether or not we do good deeds....

HOWEVER,
As I've stated many times on these threads, good deeds are necessary - I think probably to be good workers of the Kingdom of God here on earth - which Jesus came to establish.