SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[Mungo]

Works are unnecessary. Faith is what counts.

Are you now saying that you do not need to repent of your sins?

 

[jaybo]

Are you now saying that you do not need to repent of your sins?

Are you twisting what I wrote intentionally or unintentionally?

 

[Cooper]

'Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.' (John 20:22).

Was Christ talking to himself when he said this? Was he mistaken when he made this promise, on behalf of the Father?

About John 20:22.
Here we have Jesus who once was dead but now is alive. Before Jesus ascended into heaven he appeared to Mary at the tomb, he appeared to two men on the road to Emmaus and then he appeared to the disciples in a locked room.

John 20:19-23 It was the evening of the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked because they were afraid of the Jews. Jesus came and stood among them. He told them, "Peace be with you." When Jesus had said this, he breathed on them and told them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people's sins, they are retained."

This authority to either forgive people's sins or to retain them was given only to the disciples by Christ after he had died and risen, before he ascended into heaven, and before Pentecost. As John Gill says, "Papists show their impudence and wickedness, by imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them."(Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13.)

Men living today do not have this authority. It was given only to the disciples.
1. The promise is not for all time.
2. It was only given to the apostles.
3. It is still God who ultimately forgives sin, the promise to the apostles is that whoever they forgive, it will be forgiven them.
4. We are told to seek the gifts of the Spirit, and the power of forgiveness is not one of them.
5. Jesus was able to forgive sins because he is God.

Even the scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy when he forgave people their sins. They said: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” (Luke 5:21)
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[WIP]

We don't absolve ourselves. God absolves us. We can express our sinsere repentance and contrition by pious works such as alms giving.

Should we not be giving alms always to the glory of God and not to our own selfish desires? What I mean is alms giving should be done simply because it is the right thing to do and not because we get something out of it in return.

Sounds like your definition of repentance is different from mine.

 

[Mungo]

Are you twisting what I wrote intentionally or unintentionally?

Why can't you answer a simple question?

Do you believe you need to repent of your sins? Yes or no?

 

[Mungo]

Should we not be giving alms always to the glory of God and not to our own selfish desires? What I mean is alms giving should be done simply because it is the right thing to do and not because we get something out of it in return.

Sounds like your definition of repentance is different from mine.

Yes, but should we not make some extra effort that costs us something. such as fasting or alms giving, to make satisfaction?
From the Catechism:
Satisfaction
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

 

[Cooper]

Yes, but should we not make some extra effort that costs us something. such as fasting or alms giving, to make satisfaction?
From the Catechism:
Satisfaction
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

Don't forget the hair shirt.
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[WIP]

Yes, but should we not make some extra effort that costs us something. such as fasting or alms giving, to make satisfaction?
From the Catechism:
Satisfaction
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and a very honorable and right thing to do and it is an example of one way we can show love for others. However, recall how in Matthew 23 Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and Sadducees about how they imposed many manmade rules upon the people?

In Luke 19, when Zacchaeus said he would pay restitution for all those he wronged, did Jesus say it was necessary? I don't believe so, but what I do believe is that Jesus recognized and gave credit for the change in his heart. I don't believe that Jesus really cares too much about our material things so much as He cares about our heart. What is repentance but a change in heart attitude from one who is resisting God to one who is seeking God and living a life worthy of the gift He offers.

The way I see it is that when we impose rules upon ourselves, we begin to focus more on the rules than on our character and attitude. We follow the rules because we believe it is our duty but ignore the weightier things of the law.

6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’?
8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’?
9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”
Luke 17:6-10 NKJV

We have a significant Amish presence around here. Prior to the Covid pandemic our church hosted a monthly men's group meeting. In these meetings we discussed various topics and we had representation from a few denominations including, of course Lutheran, but also Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Mennonite, and Amish.

While visiting with one of the Amish neighbors, I learned about many of the rules that were imposed by their local bishop. Rules about such things as the width of the brim on their hat and hat band, the color of buttons on their shirts and the color of their clothing in general, how they were allowed to use gasoline powered equipment so long as it was not self-propelled, how they were not allowed to use electricity, and many other things. The whole idea was that they felt these niceties and conveniences to be a distraction to their relationship with God.

Now, most of them were perfectly happy with this lifestyle and I even admired them for it, however, there was a problem. These rules of their society were not imposed as simply a requirement for membership in order to maintain a particular community lifestyle but their bishops taught that they were Biblical and God ordained.

The particular Amish gentleman that I spoke to was beginning to call this into question saying that try as he might, he could not find in Scripture where this was so. It's one thing to promote a particular way of life but an entirely different thing to claim it must be so according to God. Basically, the bishops and Amish church leaders were using their position of influence to impose their own manmade rules and doctrine upon the community very similar to how the Pharisees and Sadducees did in Jesus' day.

 

[jaybo]

Why can't you answer a simple question?

Do you believe you need to repent of your sins? Yes or no?

I answered you when I wrote... Works are unnecessary. Faith is what counts.

I don't have to give the answer that you want and I don't have to respond to your hostile tone.

 

[Mungo]

I answered you when I wrote... Works are unnecessary. Faith is what counts.

I don't have to give the answer that you want and I don't have to respond to your hostile tone.

Why are you so reluctant to answer a simple question?
Is it because repenting is a work and you don't want to admit to doing a work for salvation?
But believing is a work and you do that for salvation.

 

[jaybo]

Why are you so reluctant to answer a simple question?
Is it because repenting is a work and you don't want to admit to doing a work for salvation?
But believing is a work and you do that for salvation.

Since you're repeating yourself, so will I...

I answered you when I wrote... Works are unnecessary. Faith is what counts.

I don't have to give the answer that you want and I don't have to respond to your hostile tone.

 

[Mungo]

Since you're repeating yourself, so will I...

I answered you when I wrote... Works are unnecessary. Faith is what counts.

I don't have to give the answer that you want and I don't have to respond to your hostile tone.

Believing is a work

 

[jaybo]

Believing is a work

For you perhaps, but for those who have been born again (born of the Spirit of Christ), believing comes easily and naturally. Matthew 11:28-29, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

 

[Mungo]

For you perhaps, but for those who have been born again (born of the Spirit of Christ), believing comes easily and naturally. Matthew 11:28-29, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

So you believe that salvation (being born again) comes before believing.

But scripture says salvation comes from believing (Eph 2:8) - i.e after believing.
I believe scripture.

 

[jaybo]

So you believe that salvation (being born again) comes before believing.

But scripture says salvation comes from believing (Eph 2:8) - i.e after believing.
I believe scripture.

Nice play on verb tenses. a) Salvation comes before believing. b) Salvation comes from believing, i.e., after believing.

Obviously you have no idea what I believe. What you omit as that salvation and believing happen simultaneously. One believes and is saved. (present tense).

Romans 10:10, "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." (present tense)

 

[Mungo]

Nice play on verb tenses. a) Salvation comes before believing. b) Salvation comes from believing, i.e., after believing.

Obviously you have no idea what I believe. What you omit as that salvation and believing happen simultaneously. One believes and is saved. (present tense).

Romans 10:10, "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." (present tense)

That's not even a good try.
In Rom 10:10 Paul is addressing people who are already Christians. They have heard the word, they have believed (1:8) and they have been baptised (6:3-4). So when he gets to 10:9 his words are nothing to do with the initial saving event, but are concerned with their ongoing salvation. They are under persecution and Paul is urging them not to be afraid of confessing that Jesus is Lord.

As to believing and being saved occurring at the same time, that is not what scripture says.
“Believe (present) on the Lord Jesus, and you will (future) be saved” (Acts 16:31)
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk 16:16) belief, then baptism = salvation.

 

[Cooper]

Believing is a work

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

Acceptance of God’s free gift of salvation is not works.

Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. (Rom 2:4-5)

Fighting off God’s kindness, perhaps by doing penance, is hard work, and leads to destruction.
.

 

[jaybo]

That's not even a good try.
In Rom 10:10 Paul is addressing people who are already Christians. They have heard the word, they have believed (1:8) and they have been baptised (6:3-4). So when he gets to 10:9 his words are nothing to do with the initial saving event, but are concerned with their ongoing salvation. They are under persecution and Paul is urging them not to be afraid of confessing that Jesus is Lord.

As to believing and being saved occurring at the same time, that is not what scripture says.
“Believe (present) on the Lord Jesus, and you will (future) be saved” (Acts 16:31)
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk 16:16) belief, then baptism = salvation.

Paul is writing about the Jews' return to God. It has nothing to do with the salvation of the people the the church in Rome.

Romans 10:1-13, "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now, have a look at Romans 10:10, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." All present tense. So, as to believing and being saved occurring at the same time, that is what scripture says. It happens immediately. Why do you think there is a delay?

Even the verse you quoted and the one before it (from Acts 16:30-31) say "Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” He is asking what he must do; there is no delay implied.

The same principle applies in Mark 16 (even though that was added to the Gospel at a later time). Mark 16:15-16, "And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. [future] Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.". There is no delay implied about salvation. When they hear the gospel (in the future) and believe they are saved.

 

[Mungo]

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

Acceptance of God’s free gift of salvation is not works.

Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. (Rom 2:4-5)

Fighting off God’s kindness, perhaps by doing penance, is hard work, and leads to destruction.
.

Believing is a work.
Repenting is a work.

They are both something WE do.

 

[Mungo]

Paul is writing about the Jews' return to God. It has nothing to do with the salvation of the people the the church in Rome.

Romans 10:1-13, "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now, have a look at Romans 10:10, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." All present tense. So, as to believing and being saved occurring at the same time, that is what scripture says. It happens immediately. Why do you think there is a delay?

Even the verse you quoted and the one before it (from Acts 16:30-31) say "Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” He is asking what he must do; there is no delay implied.

The same principle applies in Mark 16 (even though that was added to the Gospel at a later time). Mark 16:15-16, "And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. [future] Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.". There is no delay implied about salvation. When they hear the gospel (in the future) and believe they are saved.

You can twist and turn all you like but all this shows is that you don't really believe scripture un less it suits you..

And you consistently ignore 1Pet 3:21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"