SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[GodsGrace]

I understand why. When I led the high school Bible study in our church I wasn't too keen on being labeled a teacher either. I didn't feel I was qualified to be defined in that way and felt I was the study leader and we were learning together.

OK. I know what you mean.
But if you were doing the leading it must have meant that you knew more than the class of high school kids.
Isn't that teaching??
A teacher is just someone that is teaching something, no?
Or is it more in your understanding??

 

[WIP]

OK. I know what you mean.
But if you were doing the leading it must have meant that you knew more than the class of high school kids.
Isn't that teaching??
A teacher is just someone that is teaching something, no?
Or is it more in your understanding??

It's kind of a yes and no. Know more? Maybe or perhaps just having more experiences. I most certainly don't know all and every day it seems I learn a little more as God sees fit.

 

[Mungo]

And yet Scripture tells us...

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9 NKJV

And...

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:8-10 NKJV

So then how is it that venial sins need not be confessed. Isn't sin, sin?

Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is because such sins cut us off from God and, for some grave sins, from the Church.
For all sins we need to repent.
The following is from Catholic Answers:

Question:​

What are the ways to have a venial sin forgiven?

​

Answer:​

Venial sins can be forgiven in several ways:

• The sacrament of confession
• Worthy reception of Communion
• Sincere act of contrition
• Penance
• Fasting
• Almsgiving

 

[jaybo]

Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is because such sins cut us off from God and, for some grave sins, from the Church.
For all sins we need to repent.
The following is from Catholic Answers:

Question:​

What are the ways to have a venial sin forgiven?

​

Answer:​

Venial sins can be forgiven in several ways:

• The sacrament of confession
• Worthy reception of Communion
• Sincere act of contrition
• Penance
• Fasting
• Almsgiving

I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace. In other words, I'm a Protestant.

 

[Mungo]

I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace. In other words, I'm a Protestant.

Are you saying you don't need to repent of your sins?

 

[jaybo]

Are you saying you don't need to repent of your sins?

Why are you trying to twist my words? I said that I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace. In other words, I'm a Protestant. Where do you see no need for repentance in that sentence?

 

[Mungo]

Why are you trying to twist my words? I said that I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace. In other words, I'm a Protestant. Where do you see no need for repentance in that sentence?

I wrote: For all sins we need to repent.
You seemed to be in denial of this otherwise why write: "I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace."
Catholics are not under law but under grace.

I'm a Protestant.

You certainly protest lot.

 

[jaybo]

I wrote: For all sins we need to repent.
You seemed to be in denial of this otherwise why write: "I am thankful that I am not under law, but under grace."
Catholics are not under law but under grace.



You certainly protest lot.

Salvation is not by works. Once you understand that you'll be making some progress toward the truth. Who knows, some day you might even graduate and become a Protestant!

 

[Christ_empowered]

I can see...a bit of both sides of the argument. Confession and acts of contrition do -not- seem Biblically-based (to be fair, I have a Protestant bible that's missing some books used by Catholics...), so the obvious argument is: just say no. neither add to nor take away from His word.

But sin is serious and its effects extend beyond the individual. common good, again. If I speed down a road with no one else on it, but a bored police officer is parked in a church parking lot nearby or something, I may end up with a ticket. no one was hurt. if the road is generally empty at that time of day, the risks to others was probably minimal. but the offense against the state calls out for some sort of penalty, in part to make me realize: its not just -me- in this community.

maybe if priests were...how do I put this tactfully...better examples of morality...I could go for it. to be fair, church leaders in general seem to be rather prone to both mega-sins and mega-falls. even locally, a megachurch pastor is no longer a megachurch pastor in part because of sinful behavior and his refusal to repent and do better. since I basically live in the bible belt version of any small city, usa...

its a big problem. :-(

the other issue I have is...if the church itself was without fault, maybe the "extras" could...possibly be justified? but the church, for all its -amazing- charity work and such...

has a spotty track record. I think its true of all religious institutions? they all exist in a social context and have to somehow...continue existing...which can make for some rather cringe-worthy history lessons. The worst one I read was about Methodist ministers in the 10s-40s or so being paid by various pro-eugenics organizations...

to preach on the wonders of eugenics, in church. eugenics and Christianity are fundamentally incompatible, but...OK. lesson learned? I dunno. :-(

 

[Benadam]

Right.
But you stated that salvation came from Jesus THROUGH Mary.
I wanted to know what you understand this to mean.

(your post no. 42)

Like Eve. She isn't anyone's offspring but a genetic duplicate of Adam. Eve came through Adam.
Like Adam could say of Eve, Mary could say of Jesus, flesh of my flesh bone of my bone.

 

[Mungo]

Salvation is not by works. Once you understand that you'll be making some progress toward the truth. Who knows, some day you might even graduate and become a Protestant!

Salvation is not by works of the law. If you would stop snipping bits out of context you might understand it better.

Baptism is not a work of the law. It is an act of obedience.

 

[Cooper]

The practice of confessing sins to a priest is not based on James 5;16 but on John 20:22-23
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
By this we understand that Jesus gave the apostles, the leaders of the Church, the authority to forgive sins in his name. They, and their successors, give that authority to priests.

And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them.
(p) Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13. (John Gill)
.

 

[WIP]

Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is because such sins cut us off from God and, for some grave sins, from the Church.
For all sins we need to repent.
The following is from Catholic Answers:

Question:​

What are the ways to have a venial sin forgiven?

​

Answer:​

Venial sins can be forgiven in several ways:

• The sacrament of confession
• Worthy reception of Communion
• Sincere act of contrition
• Penance
• Fasting
• Almsgiving

First you say, "For all sins we need to repent" then you say, "We can be forgiven of some sins by giving alms" This seems contradictory.

This is one area where I disagree with the Catholic church doctrine. I do not believe one can absolve themselves of sin by doing good (giving alms) or doing some other act (fasting). We cannot forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin.

 

[Mungo]

And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them.
(p) Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13. (John Gill)
.

That may be John Gill's opinion but it does not line up with scripture.
The authority to forgive sins was bestowed on them then.
The tense is present - now, not some future time.

 

[Mungo]

First you say, "For all sins we need to repent" then you say, "We can be forgiven of some sins by giving alms" This seems contradictory.

This is one area where I disagree with the Catholic church doctrine. I do not believe one can absolve themselves of sin by doing good (giving alms) or doing some other act (fasting). We cannot forgive sin. Only God can forgive sin.

We don't absolve ourselves. God absolves us. We can express our sinsere repentance and contrition by pious works such as alms giving.

 

[Cooper]

That may be John Gill's opinion but it does not line up with scripture.
The authority to forgive sins was bestowed on them then.
The tense is present - now, not some future time.

It most definitely does agree with scripture.
Only the person who is sinned against can be the one to reach out in forgiveness.

If we sin against God, only God can forgive us. Not a third party.
.

 

[Cooper]

We don't absolve ourselves. God absolves us. We can express our sinsere repentance and contrition by pious works such as alms giving.

There you go. Only God can absolve us.
.

 

[jaybo]

We don't absolve ourselves. God absolves us. We can express our sinsere repentance and contrition by pious works such as alms giving.

Works are unnecessary. Faith is what counts.

 

[Cooper]

That may be John Gill's opinion but it does not line up with scripture.
The authority to forgive sins was bestowed on them then.
The tense is present - now, not some future time.

I meant to say, "
It most definitely does NOT agree with scripture.
Only the person who is sinned against can be the one to reach out in forgiveness.

If we sin against God, only God can forgive us. Not a third party. Certainly not a priest, bishop or pope.

We do not get enough edit time. At my age, I need a LOT of time. Thank you site owner.
.

 

[Niblo]

I meant to say, "
It most definitely does NOT agree with scripture.
Only the person who is sinned against can be the one to reach out in forgiveness.

If we sin against God, only God can forgive us. Not a third party. Certainly not a priest, bishop or pope.

We do not get enough edit time. At my age, I need a LOT of time. Thank you site owner.
.

'Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.' (John 20:22).

Was Christ talking to himself when he said this? Was he mistaken when he made this promise, on behalf of the Father?