SALVATION

[vja4Him]

Those who have entered into eternal life and are seated with Christ in the heavenlies - are known of God. They do have the mind of Christ. You keep speaking of professing Christians as if that makes them a Christian. It doesn't. Not all who say they are the Lord's are saved. Hearing the message comes first, then can come true repentance, which is a turning away from the old and walking in newness of life. That, my friend, is the gospel message. When a person turns away from the old but never walks in newness of life, they are not saved. They must be raised with Christ, as well, otherwise they aren't born again a new creation. They continue to walk in their own strength...not being filled with Holy Spirit. The cross just opens the door...reconciling man with God. Partaking in the resurrection life is salvation. Once resurrected into eternal life, one is imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Once we're seated with Christ in the heavenlies, we will never be cast out...we have entered into that rest.

And that is the message of hope! Amen, hallelujah, Thank you Jesus!

Psalm 37:23-24

23The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

24Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

 

[francisdesales]

No, they were saved by their repentance, their calling upon the name of the Lord. The issue is whether they REMAINED in that "calling upon the Lord". If they deny the Lordship in their lives, they are not calling upon the name of the Lord, they have no faith in God. This says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about whether they EVER had this faith.

Nor does saying because they'd escaped the pollutions of the world they'd repented.
The verse said they turned from the holy commandment. That tells me they never repented.
They'd turned from the commandment to repent.

First, let me re-post the verses in question...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; 2 Peter 2:20-22

Again, you are just simply denying something without giving me any subsequent alternate means by which they OBEYED the commandments...!!!

The Scriptures CLEARLY state that they obeyed the commandments, followed the ways of holiness. We know this because it says they TURNED from the obedience of the commandments. They FOLLOWED the ways of holiness...

Can you give me an alternate means by which we can obey the commandments of God, become holy and escape the pollutions of sin???

HOW CAN THEY NOT have repented, in this situation? Obeying the commandments and walking a walk of holiness and obedience to God DEMANDS that we repent. The IDEA of repentance IS TO CHANGE...

I cannot see how you can make the claim that there is no repentance here. It very clearly says "RETURN TO THE VOMIT, their FORMER lifestyles. Thus, with a slight amount of thinking, it should be very obvious that they DID repent and CHANGED their life styles, from one of "vomit", to one of holiness.

HOW EXACTLY DO YOU PROPOSE THIS HAPPENED WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD, WITHOUT REPENTANCE AND CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD?

Doesn't Acts say there is NO OTHER name under the heaven by which we can be saved - freed from sin??? How ELSE did they then escape the pollutions of sin and walk a walk of holiness???

Escaping from the pollutions of the world simply means they were captives who'd been set free by the work of the cross, as all men are.

WHAT???? The Scriptures say that the works of Christ are available to men, but are not universally applied to men. They must REPENT first before they are freed from sin!!! NOW, you are changing your tune! First, the above were not saved, NOW, everyone is saved WITHOUT ANY REPENTANCE.

Make up your mind, please...

How can a Christian make such a silly claim??? We see it all around us - people who are NOT freed by the works of the cross, YET. We are not freed from sin, UNTIL we repent. That is BASIC Christianity... .

They heard the gospel, but never took the step of faith necessary for salvation. They went to church, they gave money to the poor, they even shared the gospel with their friends. They taught doctrine in the churches, they stopped beating their wives...on and on. They were professing Christians walking in the flesh.

You don't share the Gospel with others, give money to the poor and do works of love WITHOUT saying you repented. All of these actions ARE repentance - a change of life. You can't do any of that until the Spirit of God comes to the repentant person. Again, you are saying something without any evidence from Scriptures. Repentance is an act of changing one's lifestyle, rejecting sin and choosing (by God's grace, no OTHER WAY) to do works of love.

Again, you presume that these works of love are self-generated and ignore the signs in front of your face of a person repenting...

Knowing the "way of righteousness," is a far cry from knowing God.
They had been exposed to the Gospel...nothing more.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

First, "knowing" is much more than book knowledge. How you have so quickly forgotten/ignored this. And clearly, 2 Peter 2 says they were righteous BY FOLLOWING THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, not just by "knowing them" like finding them in a textbook... By obeying the commandments, they are not just expressing "book knowledge"...

You make too much of their "knowing righeousness"...in order to support your doctrine, you assume it's the same way a believer knows God. There is "knowing" and there is "knowing the way of". But when you look honestly at the entire chapter, you will see it is not speaking of those who have lost their salvation. Those people never had it to begin with.

you are simply in denial because you are doing a poor job of explaining away what the Bible clearly says here. You pretend to know the inner life of another person - and ironically, do not even know your own walk... This is the result of OSAS.

Let me explain. What happens if YOU PERSONALLY were to fall away in 2015? Does that mean that RIGHT NOW, you were "never saved to begin with"??? What sort of security is this??? None. You don't even know if YOU CURRENTLY are REALLY in Christ, despite your "walk", since by definition, a Christian who falls away was NEVER KNOWN by Christ (although by "magic", I suppose, he followed the commandments, walked a way of holiness, and abandoned a life of sin. Whatever...)

The people of 2 Peter 2 FOLLOWED the ways of righteousness, not just "knew" about them. They ESCAPED the pollutions of the world, they didn't just "know" about the pollutions of the world. They LIVED a life of holiness, and NO ONE shall see God without this holiness. NO ONE, according to several Scripture citations.

Merely saying they "never had it to begin with" is just a silly attempt to explain away the failure of OSAS... Sort of like saying "its dark outside" when it is noon at the equator. It is simple denial of an obvious fact - a denial that will not go away because of your emotional idolatry to a false gospel...

If someone escapes the life of perdition, becomes holy in the sight of God, follows the ways of righteousness - but then returns to their former life, you CLAIM they never had it to begin with...???

Beware that you don't fall, since then the other OSAS will say you never had Christ to begin with - thus, you being in Christ NOW may just be a farce, you over-active imagination - IF it can be taken away and judged to have never happened.

Ridiculous... If you have Christ NOW, you know. NO ONE can take that away, not even the silly OSAS's proud declarations of other people... The issue is to REMAIN in Christ, not whether you EVER had Christ...

Even the demons know God and His righteousness.

How many of the demons FOLLOW THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS??? How many of them repented and changed from a life of vomit (which Peter says those who were wicked had done BEFORE)

The demons are perfect examples of FALLING AWAY into a life of perdition!!! By your example, you condemn you "theology"...

Here are those who "knew" God, yet glorified him not as God...

No one in 2 Peter is described as "never glorifying God. That is your presumption based upon their CURRENT state, not their past. It says they followed a life of holiness and OBEYED the commandments. Must I remind you - yes, I think so - that ONE of the COMMANDMENTS is to glorify God and worship Him on the sabbath. It doesn't imply ANYWHERE that these people NEVER glorified God...

Regards

 

[vja4Him]

Why do I get the feeling you believe other Christians don't have your level of belief? My faith is not a "bumper sticker" faith.

Where did I call your faith a bumper sticker faith? Why are you identifying with that part in my post ?

Cornelius -- I too was offended by the post you made about "Bumper sticker faith."

We know who you are talking about, even if you don't mention names ...

 

[vja4Him]

I use to walk in a delusion as a Christian myself.

I'm glad that you brought this up .... You see, I was raised in the church. Took my Bible to church. I even liked going to church, although I didn't like getting all dressed up and wearing a tight, stuffy tie!

I even used to enjoy the Bible sword drills! Anyone ever do the Bible sword drills ... ???

But you know what .... I knew, yes I KNEW that I was not saved, and was on my way to hell .... I was not deceived into thinking that I was a Christian, and going to heaven, just because I went to church, read the Bible, etc.

Oh yes, I was even baptized, when I was young, around nine years of age. Somehow I even knew then that the baptism did not save me.

Some people will be deceived though, and actually think they are saved, and it's their works that have them deceived into beleiving that they will enter heaven.

Matthew chapter seven

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[vja4Him]

No, they were saved by their repentance, their calling upon the name of the Lord.

Not so .... Just because somebody calls upon the name of the Lord, doesn't mean they are saved .... Even the demons cried out the name of Jesus ...

Matthew chapter seven:

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[vja4Him]

You know I feel sorry for those who believe that you can become unsaved by sinning. The lord hung on the cross for our sins and you put him up there every day. The problem is not him it is us. Us (counting myself) being so pious and high and mighty to think that what we do could affect what God thinks about us.
Let me ask you something if you knew God liked you. Really liked you without reservation, that he knew all your secrets all your sins, but still wanted to be around you because he liked you. Would that change your view on religion yourself? I think it would. You would not worry about what you did, how you had to please someone. You would enjoy life.
I think it is far more arrogant for a Christian to focus on your own sins than to realize that God loves us no matter what we do. Our sins are not the issue if they were Jesus died on the cross in vain.
Someone said
“Thru grace with our ascent our desire begins to be transformed energies that once was dedicated simply to relieving ourselves from pain now become dedicated to a larger goodness, more aligned to the true treasure of our heart. Where we were once interested only in conquering a specific addition (sin) we are now claiming a deeper longing and we are concerned with becoming more free from attachments in general for the sake of that deep love. What had become as a urgent to reform our behavior has now become a process of transforming our life.â€
To put it more plainly God don’t care what sins you have committed, will commit, knowingly or unknowingly, he still loves you the same. When you begin to realize this one thing, that, as a saved believer in Christ, you are his yesterday, today and tomorrow you can live a freer better life for him.

Good message and I agree, but I would add a word of caution ... We must be careful not become complacent and comfortable in our sins. I am concerned with those who are teaching too much on the side of postive thinking, feeling so good about yourself, and watering down the scriptures, not preaching on sin, repentance, etc.

We need to have that true peace of Christ, that yes, we are forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, and that our salvation is secure in Christ, and that nobody can take that away.

But we need to know that we are in Christ, and that we are not condemned, even when we sin:

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Cornelius]

But we need to know that we are in Christ, and that we are not condemned, even when we sin:

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Unless we sin willingly, which not walking after the Spirit, but walking after the flesh. In that case there is indeed condemnation.

Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,


Hbr 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[francisdesales]

If you are correct then the only person we know of who's eternal salvation is secured is the theif on the cross.

FIrst of all, no one's salvation to eternal life is "absolutely secure". That is the sin of presumption. Paul speaks about HOPE. Hope is something unseen yet. As is faith. He also speaks about falling, several times in Corinthians, for example... We are secure because we trust God's Word that WHILE we are in Christ, we will also be Risen with Him. The guarantee of this is the Spirit, who works in us, TODAY. He is the first fruit. And that means that we KNOW the Spirit working in us AS we love others. AS He works in us, we have a continued guarantee. But this guarantee only applies AS we are IN Christ TODAY. If we are not in Christ, there is no guarantee of anything. The guarantee of eternal life remains ONLY as long as you REMAIN in Christ.

Only those who are holy shall see God, those who are clean of heart. Such have escaped and REMAIN out of the slavery of sin. This is real-life stuff, my friend, not pretend escape. If a person is living in adultery, he is not escaped sin any longer. How can someone like that THINK that he is in Christ as he has sex with someone who is not his wife, lie to his wife about it, and THEN makes claims about OTHER people who "never had Christ to begin with"....??? This reminds me of the blind Jews chastised in Romans 2... Hypocrites.

Why? Because he didnt have time or the oportunity to sin before he died after believing in Christ. By all means go ahead and start another religion, but don't call it christianity please.

Drop the drama, bud. You still have not shown me any PROOF that ANY Christian believed your pretend security of OSAS before the Reformation... Earlier, you said all men are saved by the work of Christ. So what is the use of repenting then???? Atheists are already saved... THAT is Christianity????

You have the audacity to make such statements when you have ignored my red bolded questions, not provided any evidence that OSAS WAS INDEED part of Ancient Christianity, or even makes any sort of sense, since YOU might not even be saved to begin with??? Perhaps Christ never knew you either, despite your claims TODAY. So tell me, by what OTHER name are we saved, a name that allows us to obey God's Commandments, turn to a life of holiness and avoid the pollutions of sin BUT NOT call upon Jesus Christ??? Tell me how YOU can do any of the above without Christ???

Oh thats right you don't, you call it catholism.

I have not even mentioned that word, nor have I spoke of any particular theology that ONLY Catholics believe. I and Cornelius agree on this subject completely, but I assure you we disagree on "Church" and "authority"... There are NUMEROUS Chrisitans who are not Catholic who are not taken in by the OSAS false teachings... This is just an attempt to kill the messenger...

As you where. By the way the Lord is my only father.

But if you sin and return to the vomit of your former life - a distinct possibility - everyone of the OSAS people will say you really never knew Him and He didn't know you... It's sad that people will be making such accusations and casting you out, rather than trying to help you... Thus, we can't trust your knowledge of the Father, because in 2015, you may fall away, thus making your claim today null and void. And other OSAS people will treat you like the plague.

This is the silliness of OSAS. There is NO security at all...

Church Fathers??" Whats that bunkum?? "Call no man father but your father in heaven, does that ring any bells?

You are changing the subject because you cannot defend the utterly undefendable OSAS. Thus, you must attempt to poison the well, because a "Cath-o-lick" is making you appear Scripturally indept. With Scripture alone, I am showing you your "gospel" makes no sense, common or otherwise...

This is the usual tactic of the person who cannot defend their point of view. Ad hominem, poisoning the well, other such fallacies abound. STICK TO THE POINT.

Also if you are right, I'm not saved, never was, never will be. So we aren't brothers. And I don't want to join your religion.

You misunderstand our teachings on that subject. We are brothers, but you are just a confused soul that I am trying to point the truth to... Don't be angry with me because I am trying to show the truth to you, this is an act of love.

By the way, you would need to burn and destroy several thousand scriptures from the word of God in order for me to even entertain the idea that a Christian can ever loose his salvation.

Start naming the Scriptures, then, that I would have to burn...

You think I haven't heard these lame arguments before??? Trust me, this conversation comes up every few months here, and I have heard all the terrible arguments before. Your attempt to pretend 2 Peter doesn't say what it clearly DOES is an example of the depths a person who idolizes OSAS must stoop to so they can remain in it...

Regards

 

[vja4Him]

You indict the whole idea of eternal security because of your reading of what one person posted.
Then you post the law as a mockery of grace.
We are not to put ourselves under the law in any way.

In the first place, Jesus is the perfect sacrifce, and He offered His blood one time for our sins.
Paul said what he didn't want to do, he did.
What he wanted to do, he didn't.

You can't even begin to claim you haven't sinned, in some small matter, in spite of knowing you shouldn't. To lie is a sin. Do you tell your wife she looks dumpy when she asks you how she looks?

Do you tell your boss you saw him cheating on his taxes? Sins of omission, you know...

No, brother...if we are born again, we are sons of God and nothing will take away our salvation.
I'll tell you what will happen, though. God will make us so miserable we'll wish we'd never done it, and we'll sure be slow about doing it again. This is the "sorer punishment, and the "fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" spoken of in Heb. We won't lose our salvation, but we will be punished.

I can sure relate to that! I'm am so thankful that Jesus is God of mercy and grace, matchless grace (remember that old hymn?) ...

Hebrews 12:6

"Because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

 

[Cornelius]

Lets rather stick to the topic. You both still need to answer me on this :

Do you think this is speaking about Christians who are going to heaven?

Hbr 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift,(Saved and filled with the Holy Spirit ) and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


Hbr 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,


Hbr 6:6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

OK as you can see, I keep on asking this question over and over. But I understand why you keep on avoiding answering it.

So here is the answer: These Christians have indeed lost their salvation.They cannot be renewed to repentance, they have been reprobated.

 

[shad]

Jesus' Salvation is very simple. Why does this thread going on so many pages?

We have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior for salvation. How do we honor Him as our Lord? By keeping His commandments. Jesus says if you love me "keep my commandments". All His commandments are in the New Testament.

It seems that most of us are trying to find loop holes to dishonor Jesus' commandments and make His salvation cheap, hypocritical and disgraceful.

.

 

[vja4Him]

I'm sure glad God loves His children, those He's called according to His purpose.

They come out of every nation and every denomination....God looks at the heart, whether or not we understand why we're His or not. Last I heard, we could come with the faith of a child. Our understanding of the finer points of the workings of God are not what makes us acceptable in the brethern.

Amen! Not everyone will have the same level of understanding the scriptures. Can somebody be saved and not believe in the virgin birth?

Some would say, absolutely not ...

I would say, "Yes, you can be saved and not believe in the virgin birth." But that is a topic for another thread ....

 

[francisdesales]

No, they were saved by their repentance, their calling upon the name of the Lord.

Not so .... Just because somebody calls upon the name of the Lord, doesn't mean they are saved .... Even the demons cried out the name of Jesus ...

I didn't JUST say they called upon the name of the Lord. I also said "they repented". Repent is the act of changing one's life, one of rejecting sin and changing to become more like God and to do what God's Will is for us... We are saved from sin by these acts, which are entirely dependent upon God's grace.

AS a person walks in repentance, in faith, in hope of the Gospel, they are "saved", today. They are freed from the slavery of sin, which is the DEFINITION of being saved.

The gentlemen refered to in Matthew 7 were NOT walking in the ways of the Lord, today, so their hypocritical acts were duly noted. There was no attempt to reject sinful demeanors and attitudes.

As to the "I never knew you", I believe that is hyperbole, since men cannot cast out demons in the name of Christ UNLESS Christ knew us at that time. It is Jesus' attempt to get our attention to the seriousness of BECOMING wicked when one was ONCE righteous.

The situation is akin to what Ezekiel writes...

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. EZ 18:24

Being righteous in 1995 doesn't guarantee we will not later turn to abominations and become wicked. Thus, TODAY, we are not "known". But the acts of righteousness of 1995 still happened, and can only happen IN CHRIST.

Unless you are aware of another way we can do works of Love without God...

Think about it. It is interesting how the OSAS mindset leads to people, knowingly or not, thinking they can do good without God, a "works-righteousness". How utterly ironic...

This is the result of following a false gospel. It subtley destroys the REAL Gospel.

Regards

 

[shad]

Cornelius wrote:
Do you think this is speaking about Christians who are going to heaven?

Hbr 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift,(Saved and filled with the Holy Spirit ) and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

C,

You seem to be hinting and emphasizing your own understanding of the Holy Spirit. It is so wrong, friend. I hope you reexamine your preaching.

You are giving impression that if you dont speak in tongue, the Holy Spirit does not dwell in you; it is too simplistic.

.

 

[vja4Him]

Lets keep it simple: Do you think you will keep your salvation if you were to take the mark of the Beast?

Don't say "Real Christians will not take it"..that is not what I am asking. I want to know IF a real Christian were to take the mark, will they still be saved.

If anyone takes the mark of the beast, they were never saved in the first place, plain and simple.

Matthew chapter seven:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[Cornelius]

Lets keep it simple: Do you think you will keep your salvation if you were to take the mark of the Beast?

Don't say "Real Christians will not take it"..that is not what I am asking. I want to know IF a real Christian were to take the mark, will they still be saved.

If anyone takes the mark of the beast, they were never saved in the first place, plain and simple.

Matthew chapter seven:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Absolutely not so. You have no Scripture to back you up for this. The warning is made to Christians and not unbelievers.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

I put my assurance in my salvation, not in what I might do, but in what Christ has already done on the cross of calvary.

Does this mean you believe EVERYONE is saved, then????

As a Christian, sure I will do good works, but I never think of my works as giving me any assurance that I will make it to heaven. That would only lead me into a false sense of security.

The assurance is the fact that the Spirit abides in us AS we do the good works!!! THOSE WORKS are VISIBLE PROOF that God is working in you. The point is merely SAYING stuff is meaningless. True works of love are PROOF that one is in Christ, proof that they are saved today. This is NOT false security, because it relies on the Spirit's ACTIVE presence and faith in the Scripture's promise... We know the Spirit is in us AS we obey God.

I KNOW that I am saved because I KNOW that Jesus will keep His promise.

ONLY to those who obey Him and are IN Him. We KNOW He is in us AS we love others, are freed from the ways of sin. Not pretend proclamations while you continue in your daily life of disobeying God (not you personally, but the one with such an attitude that they are saved because of what Jesus did 2000 years ago and that's it)

The PROMISE of the Covenant is given ONLY to those who obey God, OT or NT...

Jesus will save me completely! Not partially, not temporarily. My salvation in Christ is COMPLETE, in Jesus, not in my works.

As long as we are in Jesus, we are saved. Completely.

I never said we are saved BY OUR WORKS. They are evidence of God's working in me. It is not I, but Christ who lives in me. TODAY. IF Christ lives in me, I am saved. If I boot Christ out by a life of sin, how can I say I am saved? The proof is obvious that I am not, as I am again a slave to sin. That is not a life of being saved. Being saved is NOT about a bus ticket to heaven, but about a new life in the Spirit, TODAY, my brother.

Regards

 

[vja4Him]

I will be raptured out of here or will have died long before that happens, all christians will be. Its a meaningless hypothetical question to back up a vapourous etherial false doctrine.

Well good luck to you brother. Why warn Christians about the mark, if Christians cannot take it.

The warning is not for Christians ....

Why tell people that Jesus saves .... ?

Obviously, the message is for those who need a Savior ... !!!

 

[Cornelius]

No its for all people. But God is not warning unbelievers . Why would He? His warning us !

 

[francisdesales]

I'm glad that you brought this up .... You see, I was raised in the church. Took my Bible to church. I even liked going to church, although I didn't like getting all dressed up and wearing a tight, stuffy tie!

I even used to enjoy the Bible sword drills! Anyone ever do the Bible sword drills ... ???

But you know what .... I knew, yes I KNEW that I was not saved, and was on my way to hell .... I was not deceived into thinking that I was a Christian, and going to heaven, just because I went to church, read the Bible, etc.

Oh yes, I was even baptized, when I was young, around nine years of age. Somehow I even knew then that the baptism did not save me.

Some people will be deceived though, and actually think they are saved, and it's their works that have them deceived into beleiving that they will enter heaven.

The problem here is that your past community focused too heavily upon eschatology as the SOLE meaning of "being saved". Being saved meant "going to heaven". THAT is NOT the dominant meaning of "being saved" in Scriptures. It doesn't refer to a future act, the vast majority of the time, but rather, a CURRENT situation. Saved from what? Saved from a LIFE of sin. This is not just double-speak, where we are given a bus ticket while we are STILL subject to a sinful, polluted lifestyle. NO! The Spirit can free us from that. And as we reject sin and its slavery, we are BEING SAVED TODAY! The secondary effect of this salvation is that it opens the gates of heaven to us, since ONLY the holy will enter within.

Thus, AS we live a life of holiness, rejecting sin, we realize salvation in our life TODAY, and we trust that God will keep His promise to us - based upon the sacrifice of His only Son, we can be assured that He will, brother.

This is the basis of our assurance in eternal life. AS we live in Christ, we will rise with Christ...

Regards