SALVATION

[beardedad]

OK, I have said what I wanted to say and the one scripture that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christians can indeed loose their salvation gets ignored (for obvious reasons) So here it is again, before I leave this thread:
Hbr 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (Obviously Christians )


Hbr 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,


Hbr 6:6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is still talking about people who show the outward sings of being saved. They are playing being christain but in truth they have not given their heart soley to God. It is not talking about a truley saved person.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah .... I've slipped a few times myself ... And I'm so thankful that I have a God who forgives, and is there to pick me up when I fall ....

Psalm 37

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

And I'm sure you can attest, as can I, that even when we ignore God, He is there waiting patiently for us to turn back to Him. I knew it, I could feel His presence, but like a naughty child I said, "in a minute...I don't want to stop what I'm doing". And how do we know, for that season, we're not alone? We hear His voice saying, "I'm here. I see what you're doing." The rod of correction comes out, and we're like a sheep being led back to the fold. The Lord is a shepherd, He loses none of His own. We may lose our way for awhile, but we are never really "lost". He's our father...we have to discipline our own children, but we would never forsake them.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

It never works when we try to go before the Lord. All the good deeds we do on our own initiative are worthless...often in contradiction to the will of God. It's only as we do what the Holy Spirit leads us to do will we have fruit worthy of praise - simply because it's His work...not ours.

Make sure you remember the section I bolded for you, since it is ONLY as we do what the Spirit leads us to do, will we have fruit worthy of praise, not based on a holy life in 1998 while TODAY, you (not you personally) lead a life of dissipation.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. EZ 18:24

Look as hard as you like, but you won't find OSAS here, either... There is death, not eternal life for such a one.

Remain in Christ if you desire eternal life.

Regards

That's what happened to those in the OT that didn't have their faith accounted to them for righteousness. Abraham lived in the OT and he had faith. Looking ahead to the cross, his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Therefore He will be in heaven with the rest of God's children.

 

[glorydaz]

[
We no longer have a "do not" list, we have a "to do" list.

Jesus says to "Keep His commandments". This is to do list.

.

That's easy...love God and love our neighbor. If we do that we've kept the whole law.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[shad]

[
That's easy...love God and love our neighbor. If we do that we've kept the whole law.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten commandments are details of Love God and love our neighbor.

Jesus is stating very clearly how we love God and our neighbors in the New Testament. One of the details is you should love even your enemies. You dont love your enemy by killing them in the military.

We should use our common sense when we read the Bible, friend. Dont be programed by your church agendas.

 

[Panin]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

Ah, now you're on to something Glory, what was do you think, that Abraham put is faith in? I believe it was the cross of Christ IE Christs salvation because he had faith in the saviour to come, we have faith that he is come.

 

[glorydaz]

Francisdesales,
Firstly, I've never once given a Catholic rant. I was raised a Catholic. I know very well that being a Catholic does not mean there aren't believers in the Church. People quite often get saved in spite of their particular denomination. I don't appreciate being accused of twisting scripture, either. If I've failed to make myself clear, I'll try to do better in the future.

Next, you're taking these two verses out of context, ignoring totally the fact that these are people who have crept in among the believers. That's the point of the whole chapter. But I'll leave that for a moment and address this.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Escaping the pollutions of the world does not mean they were saved from their sins. It means they'd heard the gospel and it's way of righteousness and decided they'd start going to church. They were wolves in sheeps clothing. Whited sepluchres...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The holy commandment had been delivered unto them...the sermons on love had been preached. Jesus was speaking to the pharisees here. Do you claim they were saved?

5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

They sat in the pews and told people how they gave money to the poor, they put on the Sunday suit and then went home and beat their wife. It's a perfect picture of many in the church today. They know what's right, but they won't stop walking in the flesh. No true repentance....no circumcised heart. Neither buried with Christ nor raised with Him.

 

[glorydaz]

OK, I have said what I wanted to say and the one scripture that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christians can indeed loose their salvation gets ignored (for obvious reasons) So here it is again, before I leave this thread:
Hbr 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (Obviously Christians )
Hbr 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

He's speaking to you, brother. He's telling you why it's impossible for the truly saved to fall away.

If God allowed that to happen then Christ would be put to open shame. People like you would be able to come along and say God is not able to keep those who were His. I'd think long and hard about your position on this issue. You're doing nothing less than to say Christ's death was not able to keep that which He's committed to do.

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

Ah, now you're on to something Glory, what was do you think, that Abraham put is faith in? I believe it was the cross of Christ IE Christs salvation because he had faith in the saviour to come, we have faith that he is come.

It sure was....

Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

David did, too....

Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

[Panin]

FIrst of all, no one's salvation to eternal life is "absolutely secure".

First of all SALVATION is the whole premise of this thread Topic and I am not the only one on this thread who is saved and knows it for a fact. So you are wrong there.

That is the sin of presumption.

That is the sin of twisting the word of God, a very serious sin indeed.

Paul speaks about HOPE. Hope is something unseen yet. As is faith.

Paul states in Romans that Jesus Christ is his only hope. not his own works

He also speaks about falling, several times in Corinthians, for example...

Paul speaks about a thorn in his side (some form of sin he cant get rid of, possibly) which God did not remove, and God told him HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT. HELLO ???

We are secure because we trust God's Word that WHILE we are in Christ, we will also be Risen with Him.

We are sure becuase of the complete work of Christ on the cross, the word leads us to this spirtual reality.

The guarantee of this is the Spirit, who works in us, TODAY. He is the first fruit. And that means that we KNOW the Spirit working in us AS we love others. AS He works in us, we have a continued guarantee. But this guarantee only applies AS we are IN Christ TODAY. If we are not in Christ, there is no guarantee of anything. The guarantee of eternal life remains ONLY as long as you REMAIN in Christ.

Heresy.

Only those who are holy shall see God, those who are clean of heart. Such have escaped and REMAIN out of the slavery of sin. This is real-life stuff, my friend, not pretend escape. If a person is living in adultery, he is not escaped sin any longer. How can someone like that THINK that he is in Christ as he has sex with someone who is not his wife, lie to his wife about it, and THEN makes claims about OTHER people who "never had Christ to begin with"....??? This reminds me of the blind Jews chastised in Romans 2... Hypocrites.

No one is holy and no one is clean of heart. The heart of man is desperatly wicked and no good thing is found in it. If you say you have no sin, you are a liar. An adultere will not enter into the kingdon of heaven. This does mean that a christian involved in adultry has lost or will lose his salvation. Burt he wont get away with it on this earthly life, if he is born of God, he will be chastised for it.

Drop the drama, bud. You still have not shown me any PROOF that ANY Christian believed your pretend security of OSAS before the Reformation... Earlier, you said all men are saved by the work of Christ. So what is the use of repenting then???? Atheists are already saved... THAT is Christianity????

No didn't say that, I said the bible says that IE God tell us this. What reformation?

Salvation is required through faith/belief, confession, repentance and baptism.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

One cant be unsaved anymore than one can be unconverted.

You have the audacity to make such statements when you have ignored my red bolded questions, not provided any evidence that OSAS WAS INDEED part of Ancient Christianity, or even makes any sort of sense, since YOU might not even be saved to begin with??? Perhaps Christ never knew you either, despite your claims TODAY. So tell me, by what OTHER name are we saved, a name that allows us to obey God's Commandments, turn to a life of holiness and avoid the pollutions of sin BUT NOT call upon Jesus Christ??? Tell me how YOU can do any of the above without Christ???

The second post in this thread (posted by me) has copious biblical proof of eternal salvation OSAS. Read it and look up the scriptures in a prayerful humble state and then come back and talk to me.

I have not even mentioned that word, nor have I spoke of any particular theology that ONLY Catholics believe. I and Cornelius agree on this subject completely, but I assure you we disagree on "Church" and "authority"... There are NUMEROUS Chrisitans who are not Catholic who are not taken in by the OSAS false teachings... This is just an attempt to kill the messenger...

I read your profile, its states that you teach Catholism. (not the bible, or Christianity)

But if you sin and return to the vomit of your former life - a distinct possibility - everyone of the OSAS people will say you really never knew Him and He didn't know you... It's sad that people will be making such accusations and casting you out, rather than trying to help you... Thus, we can't trust your knowledge of the Father, because in 2015, you may fall away, thus making your claim today null and void. And other OSAS people will treat you like the plague.

I have fallen away many times. The Lord has always chastised me and brought me back into fellowship with himself. I even lowered the Christian flag and resolved never to call myself a Christian again. I didnt get away with it for long, because I belong to God. You see my friend, I have live a little while on this earth, I have been born again for over 20 years. I know the my LORD and he knows me.

This is the silliness of OSAS. There is NO security at all...

Well it is no wonder the truth makes you feel even more insecure

You are changing the subject because you cannot defend the utterly undefendable OSAS. Thus, you must attempt to poison the well, because a "Cath-o-lick" is making you appear Scripturally indept. With Scripture alone, I am showing you your "gospel" makes no sense, common or otherwiseThis is the usual tactic of the person who cannot defend their point of view. Ad hominem, poisoning the well, other such fallacies abound. STICK TO THE POINT.

Im simply showing you that calling someone father is not biblical, but you do it anyway. And you call me spirtually inept? Thats a good one. My gospel is the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens. There is only one gospel, your gosple is one of a brood of vipers and pharasees. Which in essence makes us enemies. We are not brothers or friends.

You misunderstand our teachings on that subject. We are brothers, but you are just a confused soul that I am trying to point the truth to... Don't be angry with me because I am trying to show the truth to you, this is an act of love.

Im not angry at all. Your teaching do not belong to me, they belong to spirtual blindness. Please do not assume that I do not strive every day to live a holy life, and or that I condone sin of any kind.

Start naming the Scriptures, then, that I would have to burn...

Go back to the second post in this thread and read it, it's on the doctrine of eternal security, and start by refuteing each one. My brothers in this thread have already abely refuted the scripture you and cronelius deem to imply the loss of salvation.

You think I haven't heard these lame arguments before??? Trust me, this conversation comes up every few months here, and I have heard all the terrible arguments before. Your attempt to pretend 2 Peter doesn't say what it clearly DOES is an example of the depths a person who idolizes OSAS must stoop to so they can remain in it...

Regards[/quote]

I have already said this arguement is as old as the hills. We both know that. I do not idolize once saved always saved, I am not a died in the wool once save always saved guy, I am a born again fundamnetal bible believing fanatic though. I love my Lord.

No dramas here. Clearly your whole belief system is based on yourself remaining IN christ, perhaps you can point out to me how one can conjure this sueprnatural requirement for salvation on a moment by moment basis. As we know the Lord will return as a thief in the night, you must be living in abject terror and fear that you will be IN Christ at that precise moment. And if you are not living in abject fear, terror and misery on a daily basis, then you are either lieing about your beliefs or you have the deluded self centered egocentricity to believe that you are and or ever will be holy enough to enter into heaven on your own steam. All the best with that.

 

[glorydaz]

[
That's easy...love God and love our neighbor. If we do that we've kept the whole law.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten commandments are details of Love God and love our neighbor.

Jesus is stating very clearly how we love God and our neighbors in the New Testament. One of the details is you should love even your enemies. You dont love your enemy by killing them in the military.

We should use our common sense when we read the Bible, friend. Dont be programed by your church agendas.

I can only shake my head when I read your posts.
You do seem to spend a lot of time telling others they are programed.
Perhaps it's time for some introspection, hey?

 

[Panin]

Who are you to judge ? They were saved. They served the Lord and then fell away. The same thing can happen to you and I. Its only God's grace that keep us standing

You do realise youve dropped yourself right in it with statement bruv. :rolling

What a contradiction.

 

[Panin]

Cornelius said:

Who are you to judge ? They were saved. They served the Lord and then fell away. The same thing can happen to you and I. Its only God's grace that keep us standing

You do realise youve dropped yourself right in it with statement bruv. :rolling

What a contradiction

 

[shad]

I can only shake my head when I read your posts.
You do seem to spend a lot of time telling others they are programed.
Perhaps it's time for some introspection, hey?

You are programed when you believe you know God and love Him when you support the military and approving the killing your enemies. Your organization wants you to be prolifically correct christians and you are cooperating with them.

.

 

[Panin]

The warning is not for Christians ....

Where did you get this idea?

.

If we really want to be correct. Ths is not a warning. It is a statement of fact of what happens in the future, all it says is those that take the mark also worship the beast and his image. IE no warning.

I believe after the rapture, when the Holy PSirit and the church is removed. Some people will wise up, read the bible and these are the saints who will be a witness to Christ. The Ones who will refuse the mark and be beheaded. One could also argues that these are the 144,000.

 

[shad]

The warning is not for Christians ....

Where did you get this idea?

.

If we really want to be correct. Ths is not a warning. It is a statement of fact of what happens in the future, all it says is thosr that take the mark also worship the beast and his image. IE no warning.

You are playing ward games, my friend.

.

 

[glorydaz]

I can only shake my head when I read your posts.
You do seem to spend a lot of time telling others they are programed.
Perhaps it's time for some introspection, hey?

You are programed when you believe you know God and love Him when you support the military and approving the killing your enemies. Your organization wants you to be prolifically correct christians and you are cooperating with them.

.

Have you lost your mind? You don't know anything about me...whether I support the military or not...whether I approve of killing my enemies or not. And what in the world are you talking about organizations and "prolifically" correct ....................cooperation with "them". Who's "them".

Now maybe others will see why I shake my head when I read your posts. :help

 

[shad]

Have you lost your mind? You don't know anything about me...whether I support the military or not...whether I approve of killing my enemies or not. And what in the world are you talking about organizations and "prolifically" correct ....................cooperation with "them". Who's "them".

Now maybe others will see why I shake my head when I read your posts. :help

I am only giving you my overall assessment. Do you see any churches who dont approve of the military? If you dont attend the church that approves of the military I apologize. My statements are aimed at mainstream churches, I dont personally attack anyone. When I say "you" it is plural.

.

 

[vja4Him]

If you are correct then the only person we know of who's eternal salvation is secured is the theif on the cross.

FIrst of all, no one's salvation to eternal life is "absolutely secure". That is the sin of presumption.

Francisdesales -- If you really believe that your salvation is not secure, then you are no better off than anyone in the cults. And I pitty you, and pray that you will come to know that you are truely saved by the grace of God.

Only then will you have true peace, and assurance that you are in the arms of the loving heavenly Father, whose Son, Jesus Christ, died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead, paid the penalty for you sins, and finished the work of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[shad]

Francisdesales -- If you really believe that your salvation is not secure, then you are no better off than anyone in the cults. And I pitty you, and pray that you will come to know that you are truely saved by the grace of God.

How do you know you are saved? Jesus is the one who decides it, not anyone else. You will be saved if you strive to be obedient to Jesus until the end.

.