SALVATION

[Cornelius]

The problem here is that your past community focused too heavily upon eschatology as the SOLE meaning of "being saved". Being saved meant "going to heaven". THAT is NOT the dominant meaning of "being saved" in Scriptures. It doesn't refer to a future act, the vast majority of the time, but rather, a CURRENT situation. Saved from what? Saved from a LIFE of sin. This is not just double-speak, where we are given a bus ticket while we are STILL subject to a sinful, polluted lifestyle. NO! The Spirit can free us from that. And as we reject sin and its slavery, we are BEING SAVED TODAY! The secondary effect of this salvation is that it opens the gates of heaven to us, since ONLY the holy will enter within.

Thus, AS we live a life of holiness, rejecting sin, we realize salvation in our life TODAY, and we trust that God will keep His promise to us - based upon the sacrifice of His only Son, we can be assured that He will, brother.

This is the basis of our assurance in eternal life. AS we live in Christ, we will rise with Christ...

Regards

Amen. We are also saved from the curse, since Jesus became that curse for us. The word `'salvation" is much richer in its meaning than just "going to heaven" Our salvation is meant to be for NOW as well. We walk in victory now, we are able to overcome through the promises of God, and all the promises are AMEN in Christ.

 

[vja4Him]

What happens if we after a while start walking after the flesh again and not the Spirit.

You know what happens, you end up miserable and deeply unhappy until you get right with God again.

A friend of mine was Spirit filled, tongue speaking , reborn Christian. Her husband who was also a Christian, beat her so badly, she says he knocked Christianity right out of her. She is now a practicing witch , like her father and brother.She told me the other day: I know I am now going to hell, but I rather go there , than to heaven with a bunch of hypocrites.

She was saved. She had the fruit of a Christian, until that time. Will she automatically go to heaven now?

They were never saved in the first place.

Matthew chapter seven:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[Cornelius]

They were never saved in the first place.

Matthew chapter seven:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Who are you to judge ? They were saved. They served the Lord and then fell away. The same thing can happen to you and I. Its only God's grace that keep us standing.

 

[vja4Him]

ng...that kind of fruit.
They are the mark of a spirit filled believer.
We obey His voice, not walking after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What happens if we after a while start walking after the flesh again and not the Spirit?

I've done it...several times actually. I get too busy for the Lord and He smacks me upside the head and I remember why I keep my eye fixed upon Him. :yes

Yeah .... I've slipped a few times myself ... And I'm so thankful that I have a God who forgives, and is there to pick me up when I fall ....

Psalm 37

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

 

[beardedad]

When one is washed by the blood of our Savior, we can never be dirtied by sin again, because His righeousness is imputed to us. .

Jesus disagrees with you. He washed the FEET of the disciples to point to the fact that the Word (Jesus) MUST wash out walk. Our bodies are clean because of His blood and sacrifice , but our walk can still be wrong. Please notice that even though Peter's "body" was clean, Jesus said Peter has no part in Him, IF He did not wash His feet (walk)

It does not matter if your body has been washed and then after that your walk stinks.The salvation is not manifested.

Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to show that we must be servants to our brothers. You need to get off your high horse and understand that you are no better than anybody saved or unsaved, The only difference is that you hold Jesus as your lord and saviour. The bible states that we are as filthy rags in Gods eyes but Jesus paid for our sins so that we can enter heaven and be welcomed as one of his own. You need to focus not so much on your sin or orthers sins, but the love tha God has toward everyone.

 

[glorydaz]

I did answer your question, and Jesus didn't say we would be lost if we take the mark.

Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandment." How can you say you love Him without keeping His commandments and say you are saved? You cannot.

Jesus is giving us many kinds of commandments. His commandments are details of the Ten commandments.

If you have faith in Jesus, you will keep all His commandments. Jesus also says "anything is possible with Gods' help."

You cannot separate good works and faith. It is just common sense, friend.

First off...where did I say I'm not keeping His commandments?
I have the mind of Chirst....he commands every step I take.
We are no longer under the law...we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
We no longer have a "do not" list, we have a "to do" list. At the top of that list is to love others as we love ourselves. All the commandments are covered by that one. That goes far beyond the law. Whatever I do on my own is worthless...even great and noble deeds. We are simply servants of the Holy Spirit. We do what He says...period. If He says. "Go there", we go. If He says, "Speak not", we stay silent. It's much simpler than having a list of rules to worry about. It's called liberty.

 

[glorydaz]

I work for myself from home I have retired long ago from working for others.



Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You do know that the Book of Revelation was given to John by Jesus Himself ? So how on earth can you make a statement like that and tell me that you are within Scriptures, when you are so clearly outside of Scripture?
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,

You didn't say, but I assume you're addressing me. Yes, Christians have always been persecuted because we follow the Lord. I'm sure some of us will be beheaded. But we'll die with the mark of God on our forehead. The unsaved are the ones who are marked by the beast. If a person dies in his sins, he has the mark of the beast...even those who died centuries ago. A believer has the mark of God...there is no room for any other mark on a child of God. That's why believers don't worry about getting the mark...it's not possible.

 

[glorydaz]

Lets rather stick to the topic. You both still need to answer me on this :


Do you think this is speaking about Christians who are going to heaven?

Hbr 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift,(Saved and filled with the Holy Spirit ) and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,


Hbr 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,


Hbr 6:6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

OK as you can see, I keep on asking this question over and over. But I understand why you keep on avoiding answering it.

So here is the answer: These Christians have indeed lost their salvation.They cannot be renewed to repentance, they have been reprobated.

I guess you missed where I answered this.
There's no reason to avoid it, it's clear.
Go back and check what I wrote and then we can discuss it again if you feel it's necessary.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Paul, Worst of Sinners ...

We always hear the bumper-sticker gospel !

I am just a sinner saved by grace.

Well, Paul always wrote to the saints, not the sinners.

What did Paul say of himself ....

1 Timothy 1:15-16

15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

Paul considered himself to be the worst of sinners.

Yes he did, and in Romans 7 he tells us of the law of sin which all men are under as long as we live in these physical bodies.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

I put my assurance in my salvation, not in what I might do, but in what Christ has already done on the cross of calvary.

As a Christian, sure I will do good works, but I never think of my works as giving me any assurance that I will make it to heaven. That would only lead me into a false sense of security.

I KNOW that I am saved because I KNOW that Jesus will keep His promise.

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore he is able to save completely[a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jesus will save me completely! Not partially, not temporarily. My salvation in Christ is COMPLETE, in Jesus, not in my works.

Amen, brother. It never works when we try to go before the Lord. All the good deeds we do on our own initiative are worthless...often in contradiction to the will of God. It's only as we do what the Holy Spirit leads us to do will we have fruit worthy of praise - simply because it's His work...not ours.

 

[glorydaz]

No, they were saved by their repentance, their calling upon the name of the Lord. The issue is whether they REMAINED in that "calling upon the Lord". If they deny the Lordship in their lives, they are not calling upon the name of the Lord, they have no faith in God. This says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about whether they EVER had this faith.

Nor does saying because they'd escaped the pollutions of the world they'd repented.
The verse said they turned from the holy commandment. That tells me they never repented.
They'd turned from the commandment to repent.

First, let me re-post the verses in question...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; 2 Peter 2:20-22

Again, you are just simply denying something without giving me any subsequent alternate means by which they OBEYED the commandments...!!!

The Scriptures CLEARLY state that they obeyed the commandments, followed the ways of holiness. We know this because it says they TURNED from the obedience of the commandments. They FOLLOWED the ways of holiness...

Can you give me an alternate means by which we can obey the commandments of God, become holy and escape the pollutions of sin???

HOW CAN THEY NOT have repented, in this situation? Obeying the commandments and walking a walk of holiness and obedience to God DEMANDS that we repent. The IDEA of repentance IS TO CHANGE...

I cannot see how you can make the claim that there is no repentance here. It very clearly says "RETURN TO THE VOMIT, their FORMER lifestyles. Thus, with a slight amount of thinking, it should be very obvious that they DID repent and CHANGED their life styles, from one of "vomit", to one of holiness.

HOW EXACTLY DO YOU PROPOSE THIS HAPPENED WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD, WITHOUT REPENTANCE AND CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD?

Doesn't Acts say there is NO OTHER name under the heaven by which we can be saved - freed from sin??? How ELSE did they then escape the pollutions of sin and walk a walk of holiness???

Escaping from the pollutions of the world simply means they were captives who'd been set free by the work of the cross, as all men are.

WHAT???? The Scriptures say that the works of Christ are available to men, but are not universally applied to men. They must REPENT first before they are freed from sin!!! NOW, you are changing your tune! First, the above were not saved, NOW, everyone is saved WITHOUT ANY REPENTANCE.

Make up your mind, please...

How can a Christian make such a silly claim??? We see it all around us - people who are NOT freed by the works of the cross, YET. We are not freed from sin, UNTIL we repent. That is BASIC Christianity... .

They heard the gospel, but never took the step of faith necessary for salvation. They went to church, they gave money to the poor, they even shared the gospel with their friends. They taught doctrine in the churches, they stopped beating their wives...on and on. They were professing Christians walking in the flesh.

You don't share the Gospel with others, give money to the poor and do works of love WITHOUT saying you repented. All of these actions ARE repentance - a change of life. You can't do any of that until the Spirit of God comes to the repentant person. Again, you are saying something without any evidence from Scriptures. Repentance is an act of changing one's lifestyle, rejecting sin and choosing (by God's grace, no OTHER WAY) to do works of love.

Again, you presume that these works of love are self-generated and ignore the signs in front of your face of a person repenting...

Knowing the "way of righteousness," is a far cry from knowing God.
They had been exposed to the Gospel...nothing more.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

First, "knowing" is much more than book knowledge. How you have so quickly forgotten/ignored this. And clearly, 2 Peter 2 says they were righteous BY FOLLOWING THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, not just by "knowing them" like finding them in a textbook... By obeying the commandments, they are not just expressing "book knowledge"...

You make too much of their "knowing righeousness"...in order to support your doctrine, you assume it's the same way a believer knows God. There is "knowing" and there is "knowing the way of". But when you look honestly at the entire chapter, you will see it is not speaking of those who have lost their salvation. Those people never had it to begin with.

you are simply in denial because you are doing a poor job of explaining away what the Bible clearly says here. You pretend to know the inner life of another person - and ironically, do not even know your own walk... This is the result of OSAS.

Let me explain. What happens if YOU PERSONALLY were to fall away in 2015? Does that mean that RIGHT NOW, you were "never saved to begin with"??? What sort of security is this??? None. You don't even know if YOU CURRENTLY are REALLY in Christ, despite your "walk", since by definition, a Christian who falls away was NEVER KNOWN by Christ (although by "magic", I suppose, he followed the commandments, walked a way of holiness, and abandoned a life of sin. Whatever...)

The people of 2 Peter 2 FOLLOWED the ways of righteousness, not just "knew" about them. They ESCAPED the pollutions of the world, they didn't just "know" about the pollutions of the world. They LIVED a life of holiness, and NO ONE shall see God without this holiness. NO ONE, according to several Scripture citations.

Merely saying they "never had it to begin with" is just a silly attempt to explain away the failure of OSAS... Sort of like saying "its dark outside" when it is noon at the equator. It is simple denial of an obvious fact - a denial that will not go away because of your emotional idolatry to a false gospel...

If someone escapes the life of perdition, becomes holy in the sight of God, follows the ways of righteousness - but then returns to their former life, you CLAIM they never had it to begin with...???

Beware that you don't fall, since then the other OSAS will say you never had Christ to begin with - thus, you being in Christ NOW may just be a farce, you over-active imagination - IF it can be taken away and judged to have never happened.

Ridiculous... If you have Christ NOW, you know. NO ONE can take that away, not even the silly OSAS's proud declarations of other people... The issue is to REMAIN in Christ, not whether you EVER had Christ...

Even the demons know God and His righteousness.

How many of the demons FOLLOW THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS??? How many of them repented and changed from a life of vomit (which Peter says those who were wicked had done BEFORE)

The demons are perfect examples of FALLING AWAY into a life of perdition!!! By your example, you condemn you "theology"...

Here are those who "knew" God, yet glorified him not as God...

No one in 2 Peter is described as "never glorifying God. That is your presumption based upon their CURRENT state, not their past. It says they followed a life of holiness and OBEYED the commandments. Must I remind you - yes, I think so - that ONE of the COMMANDMENTS is to glorify God and worship Him on the sabbath. It doesn't imply ANYWHERE that these people NEVER glorified God...

Regards

This is so long, I can barely respond. First, off, if you want an answer you'll have to give me shorter questions...I'm typing blind here. All of that talking and you don't even get the verse correct. It does not say commandments. It says commandment (singular). The holy commandment, at that. We have a new and better covenant, or have you forgotten we're no longer under the stone law? I'll have to address this post piece-meal because you've gone on such a rant I can't make heads or tails of your argument. I will explain the chapter once again...upcoming.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

It never works when we try to go before the Lord. All the good deeds we do on our own initiative are worthless...often in contradiction to the will of God. It's only as we do what the Holy Spirit leads us to do will we have fruit worthy of praise - simply because it's His work...not ours.

Make sure you remember the section I bolded for you, since it is ONLY as we do what the Spirit leads us to do, will we have fruit worthy of praise, not based on a holy life in 1998 while TODAY, you (not you personally) lead a life of dissipation.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. EZ 18:24

Look as hard as you like, but you won't find OSAS here, either... There is death, not eternal life for such a one.

Remain in Christ if you desire eternal life.

Regards

 

[shad]

[
We no longer have a "do not" list, we have a "to do" list.

Jesus says to "Keep His commandments". This is to do list.

.

 

[shad]

The warning is not for Christians ....

Where did you get this idea?

.

 

[francisdesales]

This is so long, I can barely respond.

Take your time and read it. It is the same theme said in different ways as I attempt to help you to see the Gospel found in Scriptures. I prefer to be "long-winded" than be accused of ignoring your points - which I carefully address, as well as I can. If necessary, use several posts and address each part separately. OR, address whatever you like that you feel would best put your point forward. Do as you like to express your view - but I would appreciate an answer to my red bolded highlightings, as I think they point out the contradiction of your view with Scriptures.

First, off, if you want an answer you'll have to give me shorter questions...I'm typing blind here. All of that talking and you don't even get the verse correct. It does not say commandments. It says commandment (singular). The holy commandment, at that.

You should know that Jesus summed up the entire Law with one Commandment - love. Naturally, being given the Command to Love applies to God, as well, correct???

We have a new and better covenant, or have you forgotten we're no longer under the stone law?

I have not forgotten.

I'll have to address this post piece-meal because you've gone on such a rant I can't make heads or tails of your argument. I will explain the chapter once again...upcoming.

Do as you feel is fitting, as long as you can keep your Catholic rantings to none...

I have already heard your "explanation" of the verses in question and have found them wanting. If you think you have come up with a newer and improved way to twist them so these charecters were NOT saved in the past, go for it, be my guest.

It is quite simple. There is no other way a person can obey God's command (to love), to follow the ways of righteousness, or to turn from a life of corruption/pollution/sin, WITHOUT being saved from sin by God! When you can explain that away, let me know, but so far, you have totally ignored that problem of your faulty theology...

Is this short enough for you?

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Good message and I agree, but I would add a word of caution ... We must be careful not become complacent and comfortable in our sins. I am concerned with those who are teaching too much on the side of postive thinking, feeling so good about yourself, and watering down the scriptures, not preaching on sin, repentance, etc.

We need to have that true peace of Christ, that yes, we are forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, and that our salvation is secure in Christ, and that nobody can take that away.

But we need to know that we are in Christ, and that we are not condemned, even when we sin:

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is so much false teaching in the church today....I believe we're in the midst of the great delusion. It used to be we were to come out from the world and be separate...now it's almost to the point where we have to come out of the churches to be separate. I see true believers everywhere meeting together in homes in order to escape the error being taught. We're going back to how it was in the beginning...small new testament churches. We'll be totally underground before you know it.

 

[Cornelius]

OK, I have said what I wanted to say and the one scripture that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christians can indeed loose their salvation gets ignored (for obvious reasons) So here it is again, before I leave this thread:
Hbr 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (Obviously Christians )


Hbr 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,


Hbr 6:6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[glorydaz]

Absolutely not so. You have no Scripture to back you up for this. The warning is made to Christians and not unbelievers.

Here is the warning to Christians. Keep you eyes fixed upon Jesus.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

The children of the Kingdom worship the Lord, and Him only do we serve.
The children of the devil will take the mark of the beast, unless they repent and call on the name of the Lord...at which time they are sealed by God.

 

[glorydaz]

They were never saved in the first place.

Matthew chapter seven:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Who are you to judge ? They were saved. They served the Lord and then fell away. The same thing can happen to you and I. Its only God's grace that keep us standing.

Who are you to say they were saved? God alone knows the heart.
Not everyone who claims to be saved is saved.
No born-again believer would beat his wife.
No born-again believer would become a witch.

The Holy Spirit indwells the true believer...the person's heart has been changed.
We can tell by the fruit. Such actions are not the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

No its for all people. But God is not warning unbelievers . Why would He? His warning us !

Why in the world would He warn us.
We have the Holy Spirit.
We have the mind of Christ.
We are seated with Him in the heavenlies.
Why would He warn us?