SALVATION

[glorydaz]

Here we have a circle that can not be broken.
Do we believe it nor not?

Here Jesus prays to the Father...keep those you've given me.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

It's the Father's will...Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him, but will raise them on the last day.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

By the grace of God, we come to Jesus...those not given do not come.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

And here is the true meaning of Heb.
It is impossible for those the Father has given to fall away, because if they did our Lord would be put to open shame. Does anyone really think it's possible for our Lord to be put to open shame?
God forbid....to claim He will lose any who have been saved is to call God a liar.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[glorydaz]

And this is where so many people slip up, and get confused, which is just what Satan wants .... He wants people to go around beating themself up, like some sects do, they take a whip and actually whip themselves (I believe there was, maybe still is, a Catholic sect that did/does that), and there are also cults that do that. I read something in the news recently about some leader in a cult doing that ....

Yep, and satan sows seeds of doubt about whether we're saved or not ...claiming God can not keep those who are His. Trying to convince us we have to work at being holy or we'll be lost. :bigfrown

Don't fall for his lies, brothers and sisters.
He told Eve she would "surely not die' if she ate the fruit. Liar.
He tells you you will surely die if you don't continue to do the work Jesus finished on the cross. Liar.

 

[Cornelius]

I see everything is returning to a nice calm religious HallMark moment buzz. Some are already getting ready go back to sleep, while others are telling them their bed-time stories.

 

[glorydaz]

I see everything is returning to a nice calm religious HallMark moment buzz. Some are already getting ready go back to sleep, while others are telling them their bed-time stories.

We're just standing on the Word of God, brother. That's no bedtime story. ;)

 

[Panin]

I see everything is returning to a nice calm religious HallMark moment buzz. Some are already getting ready go back to sleep, while others are telling them their bed-time stories.

yEs and its time for you to wake up cornelius. This thread is your wake up call to true repentance and true salvation.

Praise the Lord.

All other ground is sinking sand, and you've just been sunk.

 

[Cornelius]

Right now we have to move on: The next thread is "What is Biblical Faith?"

We will turn the heat up one notch if that is OK with you

 

[shad]

Shad -- You are adding to the scripture. It simply says:

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

Very convenient, vja. you are skipping many, many Jesus' words. This is called pick and choose. That's how you water down the Gospel and make Jesus' salvation cheap, hypocritical and disgraceful.

let see what you are skipping:

Revelation 2:7 (New International Version - UK)
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version - UK)
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Revelation 2:27 (New International Version)

27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'

Revelation 3:5-6 (New International Version)
5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 3:21-22 (New International Version)
21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Revelation 3:19 (New International Version)
19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

Above verses are only tiny part of what you guys are conveniently ignoring and making excuses one after another to support your own version of Gospel. What a shame. You should show some dignity for Jesus' sake.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

That's what happened to those in the OT that didn't have their faith accounted to them for righteousness. Abraham lived in the OT and he had faith. Looking ahead to the cross, his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Therefore He will be in heaven with the rest of God's children.

Ezekiel says nothing about "salvation by faith" and whether these men were "falsely righteous" by their own works. That is just trying to explain things away. You are foisting your own false gospel onto the Scriptures that certainly do not warrant such an interpretation.

It merely states that those who are righteous TODAY can falter and return to evil tomorrow. The means of obtaining righteousness is BY faith, and thus, Ezekiel cannot be discounted. And all of their faith and righteousness is for naught. Having faith today does NOT guarantee you'll have faith tomorrow.

Don't you see the continuity with this and the NT Scriptures that speak of falling away and being in a situation AS IF you had not known Jesus ever? THIS is the situation that results from being "WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE"...


Regards

 

[vja4Him]

Here we have a circle that can not be broken.
Do we believe it nor not?

Here Jesus prays to the Father...keep those you've given me.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

It's the Father's will...Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him, but will raise them on the last day.
[quote="John 6:39":35wq3n43] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

By the grace of God, we come to Jesus...those not given do not come.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

And here is the true meaning of Heb.
It is impossible for those the Father has given to fall away, because if they did our Lord would be put to open shame. Does anyone really think it's possible for our Lord to be put to open shame?
God forbid....to claim He will lose any who have been saved is to call God a liar.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[/quote:35wq3n43]

Oh yes, I believe! Those who believe that if they don't walk a perfect walk, blameless, holy, do lots of good works, they will lose their salvation, then repent, and get their salvation back, they are saying that Christ's atonement on the cross was not sufficient!

So, they have to crucify Jesus again and again and again .... over and over and over ... crucify Jesus over and over .... Add some more works, as if the work of Christ's atonement was not good enough ....

That looks like blasphemy to me ... !!! Yes, it is blasphemy ... !!!

I will believe what the scripture says that the sacrifice that Jesus paid is once for all, and that even though I am not perfect in this life, I will be perfect in the next life. I can rest assured in the promise that God has given to me:

Ephesians 4:30

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

My salvation is sealed. It's a done deal. Finished.

 

[vja4Him]

Right now we have to move on: The next thread is "What is Biblical Faith?"

We will turn the heat up one notch if that is OK with you

Oh, I can just see this coming ..... And now folks, staring is Todd Bentley .... or one of his gang .... And look folks who just popped in with glory dust and feathers ... The (angel, uhm, actually the demon) Emma ....

 

[vja4Him]

Right now we have to move on: The next thread is "What is Biblical Faith?"

We will turn the heat up one notch if that is OK with you

More of the same .... Condemning, accusing and blaming those who don't have enough faith, or the right kind of faith, right ... ??? And if you are not healed, or not rich, then there must something wrong with you, like maybe you are not even saved, or not as spiritual as the toxic WoFs, who can't even heal themselves .....

More twisting scriptures ....

 

[vja4Him]

Revelation 2:7 (New International Version - UK)
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

You, my friend, are the one who is distorting the scriptures ....

He who overcomes are the Christians who ARE saved! Those who do NOT overcome were NEVER saved in the first place.

There are many counterfeit Christians, just playing along. I've seen Mormons and other cult members who seem to be saved, and Christian ....

 

[vja4Him]

Overcame by the Blood of the Lamb ...

You see, how is it that we overcome ... ??? By our works ... ??? NOT ...

Revelation 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We are overcomers by the BLOOD of the LAMB ... !!! And WHO is the Lamb ... ??? Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

My sins are wiped away, clean, history ....

Psalm 103:12

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

 

[vja4Him]

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version - UK)
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

This scripture is not talking about salvation, but rather overcoming terrible circumstances.

 

[vja4Him]

Revelation 3:5-6 (New International Version)
5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The white garments probably symbolize the Lord's recognition of godly character and faithful service in this life (v. 4; 6:11; 19:7, 8). White is the color of the garments the redeemed will wear in the Lord's presence (7:13, 14).

The Book of Life is the list of the eternally redeemed (20:12, 15).

To not blot out is a figure of speech, affirming a positive by negating its opposite. Thus it means, "I will include their names." Blot out likely alludes to Ex. 32:32, 33, where God says He will blot out sinners, but not faithful ones like Moses, from His Book. Christ will make sure the faithful believer's name and works are not erased, but remembered and honored.

Confess his name before My Father and before His angels: The text does not state that any believer will have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (see Luke 10:20). Rather, the faithful believer will be resoundingly confessed before the saints, the angels, and the Father by the Son (see Matt. 10:32, 33; 2 Tim. 2:12). To have the Lord publicly cofess one's name is to have the Lord's approval of one's character and service (see Matt. 10:32, 33; 1 Tim. 2:12, 13).

(Nelson Study Bible Commentary)

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
Firstly, I've never once given a Catholic rant.

It is not good to start off giving false testimony, because you clearly did. What is the meaning of mentioning "100 million people killed by the Catholic Church" and the well-worn "Father" baloney??? What does that have to do with the topic??? Nothing. It is brought up because you cannot handle the fact that the Gospel is being presented by a Catholic - and you have no answer - so thus, you must poison the well by attacking my faith, rather than my argument.

Rant, logical fallacy, baloney. Whatever you want to call it...

Next, you're taking these two verses out of context, ignoring totally the fact that these are people who have crept in among the believers. That's the point of the whole chapter. But I'll leave that for a moment and address this.

These people WERE believers, past-tense, since non-believers do not escape a life of pollution, obey the commandment of God, or follow the ways of righteousness... They did all of this in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, a knowledge learned by a close personal relationship with Him who is Lord.

THIS is what makes their situation even worse! Their falling away!!! IF they were NOT saved to begin with, TELL ME, how is their situation WORSE than before????

THIS is the big hammer that totally crushes your twisting and dancing around the clear meaning... IF they are in a worse situation, how was "pretending" to be a good Christian "better"???? What is BETTER is ACTUALLY escaping a life of sin, not pretending to. Pretending to escape slavery is not a better situation - and returning to it is NOT worse than pretending!!!

Thus, with careful reading, OSAS is totally destroyed by this one passage (among others, but why pile on?)

Escaping the pollutions of the world does not mean they were saved from their sins. It means they'd heard the gospel and it's way of righteousness and decided they'd start going to church.

The proof is in the fact that Peter did NOT even imply that they were faking anything, when he certainly could have. Peter could have easily said "these men were never saved, had never really escaped the pollutions of sin, had never really left their past life, and ALL THE WHILE, they lived a life of vomit....

He didn't, did he...

Note, they LEFT a life of vomit???

By your words, you condemn your very own position... You bring up Matthew 23... Fine. Those men had NOT escaped a life of perdition, by their very hypocritical attitudes. Escaping sin and the pollution of the world means leaving behind a life of sin. A life of sin, such as adultery, means not EVEN DESIRING IN YOUR HEART to have sex with another. THAT is being saved from the pollution of the world. When one escapes sin, they are not enslaved to it any longer. This means they don't have to "fake it". They REALLY have escaped. There is NO indication that these men were "faking" anything. Peter is crystal clear that they had ESCAPED, not that they PRETENDED to have escaped.

Matthew 23 describes people who have NOT escaped the pollutions of sin. They REMAIN in sin, despite their outward appearance. To escape the pollutions of sin means that we are no longer bound by sin, NOT that we "fake it" and pretend to all of our congregation that we are indeed perfect, so that we'll "fit in" with all the other "fakers". THAT, my friend, is CONTINUING TO BE ENSLAVED BY SIN. Hypocrites have NOT escaped a life of sin, and that was the POINT of Christ's condemnation!!!

When a person regards human respect above God, then he STILL is within the clutches of slavery to sin, the sin of religious pride. When a person has escaped the pollution of sin, they HAD BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE. Saved... By God.

They were wolves in sheeps clothing.

AFTER they returned to the vomit of their previous life. I have already mentioned that Peter is describing how they USED to be and the life they NOW lead. You continue to be confused and not able to make that distinction - I fear - because you have been taken in by the false OSAS 'gospel'.

They USED to lead a life of holiness. Do you doubt that? Do you question Peter? Who is inspired by God, you or Peter? Peter says they followed God's commandment. It doesn't say that they PRETENDED to follow the ways of rigtheousness, or pretended to obey the commandments of God. Does Jesus speak this way about those who are hypocrites???? Jesus is cut and dry on this. Those who pretend have escaped NOTHING. The people in 2 Peter HAD!!!

HYPOCRITES are NOT following the holy commandment of God, while the people of 2 Peter WERE....

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Those who follow the ways of righteousness have NOT the appearance of dead men's bones or "all uncleanliness!!! Can you point me to Scriptures that make such a claim, where a person who is righteous, walked a life of holiness, escaped the pollution of sin, and obeyed God's Commandment WERE UNCLEAN????

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales -- If you really believe that your salvation is not secure, then you are no better off than anyone in the cults. And I pitty you, and pray that you will come to know that you are truely saved by the grace of God.

I appreciate your prayers, but I don't need your false pity, thank you...

My salvation is "secure" today, but it is not guaranteed into the distant future. I face reality, not a cozy little world of imagination where I am perfect and cannot fail or turn away from God. I realize that I have free will and I CAN turn away from God in the future, just as those men mentioned in 2 Peter 2 who RETURNED to a life of perdition. I, TOO, can return to such a sitution, worse off than before, if I am overconfident, as you are.

I know I am in Christ AS LONG AS I obey God (since the Spirit enables me to). That is the visible proof that God is in me - by my obedience to Him, by my love of others. Not some false bravado statements... When I fail and choose to do evil, that is proof to me that I am chasing God out of my heart. Living a life of sin is NOT "salvation", since the definition of salvation is to be freed from sin. If I live in sin, I have escaped nothing.

Thus, I don't pretend to live in a fantasy world where I delude myself into thinking I can never leave God. Yes, there is a possibility. However, as my Christian walk continues, I grow in faith, confidence and trust that God's influence in my life grows and it will become LESS LIKELY that I will leave. I know I am saved by looking at my life today. I have confidence that in the next few days, I will not leave Christ. I KNOW He will not leave me. But in 2012, I cannot say whether I will push Him out or not. I feel as my walk continues, that is much less likely. I have a "moral confidence" that I will continue to be saved.

But absolute assurance of my future salvation? It is not found in the Scriptures without ignoring huge sections... Sorry to burst your over-confident bubble, but it is better to live in truth, than a lie and pretend you cannot fall. Thus, you will maintain a more watchful attitude, knowing you COULD fail, as Paul states in 1 Cor 10:12...

BEWARE is not said because we CANNOT fall, my brother...

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

To not blot out is a figure of speech, affirming a positive by negating its opposite. Thus it means, "I will include their names."

I really wanted to stay out of this, but for the sake of others, I want to just point out to the readers, so that they can look for themselves at something !

Just focus on what this poster is doing here right in front of your eyes. Just like a magician, with slight of hand , he is trying to make the Word say the OPPOSITE of what it says. Look carefully, because this is a wonderful example of exactly how deception has come into the church throughout all times. JUST LIKE THIS.

Now, all he is waiting for is for somebody , who's knowledge is little, to believe him and ..........he's got you! He is actually saying : You are stupid, I can make you believe that "not blot out" means"I will include their names" . (Like God has some difficulty with language and always needs a man to explain what He REALLY meant.) NO: God meant just what He said! Read it for yourselves.

So STUDY your Bibles for yourselves. BELIEVE what God says and not man. Man has agendas that will harm you. God's Gospel will save your life IF you stay with what HE said.

blessings
Cornelius

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[francisdesales]

And this is where so many people slip up, and get confused, which is just what Satan wants ....

ACTUALLY, what would suit the devil more is that people IGNORE him, pretend that the devil cannot influence people any longer. The more hidden the devil appears, the more likely the "serpent" will attack us unexpectantly. THUS, the bible warns us time and time again to BEWARE. WHY would we have to BEWARE if there is nothing to worry about? We are told in Scriptures to beware of falling, beware of the power of satan, who is looking for someone to attack. Today, it appears that satan's best attack is to get us into a false sense of security, to remove the idea that sin is a grevious offense, to remove the idea that he even exists - or has any power. Thus, the OSAS is a brilliant scheme of the devil. It catches people unaware in a false sense of security. Rather than "working out your salvation in fear and trembling", such people are already wondering how many fluffy heaven pillows they are going to get...

(I believe there was, maybe still is, a Catholic sect that did/does that), and there are also cults that do that. I read something in the news recently about some leader in a cult doing that ....

Why would the devil care that we "beat ourselves up"??? The devil cares that we sin, not undergo ascetic devotions that enable the mind to overcome sin and temptations... Satan disapproves of any discipline that strengthens us against his temptations, so clearly, you are attacking something you know little about.

And just how much holier does all this make us ... ??? Nada, none, nil, zilch ... We are still sinners, saved by His grace and mercy. We deserve the flames of hell, fire and brimstone ...

Put all of your good works together, and you know what it's worth ... ??? Filthy rags. That's right .... All of your righteousness is only filthy rags ....

Isaiah 64:6

The most overused and misunderstood Scripture in the bible. From this one verse, a ridiculous theology is launched, beginning with an overly scrupulous man who could not see any good in himself, DESPITE the fact that when a person is BORN FROM ABOVE, he is EMPOWERED to do the works of God and is MADE righteous. Not just "pretend" righteous, but BORN from Above, a new creation...

It is a total misunderstanding of who God is and what God wants from us - and how God works in our lives.

Regards

 

[shad]

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version - UK)
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

This scripture is not talking about salvation, but rather overcoming terrible circumstances.

Very convenient twisting, indeed. You are ignoring Jesus' direct commandments and you say Jesus is your Lord. Jesus hates lip servers.