SALVATION

[Cornelius]

These works are not just "good works". That is why you are getting confused. Read the example I gave about the check. Those are the "works" that follow faith.

Its so simple and logical ! James is just saying, that we should not just SAY something, we should also SHOW what we believe. We SHOW by our actions that we believe something. James calls that a "work"

 

[vja4Him]

If you do not believe in eternal security then you must believe in works. It is that simple. If you believe in works then you are not saved by God's grace but by your works.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

This justification is to prove our faith to others, not to God. God already knows our heart, and He knows our intents. He knows those who belong to Him. People do NOT. They see our good works, and therefore we are justified in the eyes of men, when they see our good works.

James 2:18

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 

[glorydaz]

Then it sounds like we're saying the same thing.

We agree on many points, but not on OSAS If we turn around from this, we then will walk in the opposite direction. We will then follow the flesh, which will take us out of Christ, out of the mind of Christ, out of the Word. The promises are only YES ...........IN Christ. We can start this walk in Christ, but then find that the price is too high to pay and then we stop following Jesus to the cross. That stops us from being a disciple. Obedience to the Word leads to salvation.

Jhn 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life. Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them,.........Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned..........Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent meJhn 17:8 for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them;

Starting a walk in Christ is not being saved. It is not being born again a new creature.
These are merely those who crucify themselves by their own efforts, but are never born again and raised into eternal life.
Professing to know Christ, walking the Christian walk, working for Christ...does not mean that person has been saved. They must be born again a new creature. Then they are Christ's and those He will never lose for they have been given Him by the Father.

 

[Cornelius]

Abraham added a "work" to his faith. He believed so strongly in the promise (Isaac) that he KNEW God would not allow him to be killed. And IF God allowed it, God would raise him from the dead. He then added a work: HE LIFTED THE KNIFE............only then did God see his faith.


Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (This is the "work" of faith ! )

Here is the acknowledgement that his faith is seen as faith, because of his works:

Gen 22:11 And the angel of Jehovah called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham. And he said, Here I am.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him. F[color=#FF0000]or now I know that thou fearest God[/color], seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.

Before Abraham lifted the knife, his faith was DEAD faith. AFTER He lifted the knife, his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness."Seeing that thou hast not withheld thy son............"

Come on people, this is how it works. Its not rocket science! The Bible is clear. Add an action to your faith if you believe something, like Abraham did. If you believe a promise. ACT like you believe !

 

[RichardBurger]

It is really very simple. I said;"If you do not believe in eternal security then you must believe in works. It is that simple. If you believe in works then you are not saved by God's grace but by your works."

To say it another way, if a person does not believe in eternal security by faith in the work of God on the cross then they must believe that there is something else that must be done. That something else is works that a person must do to prove they are saved. If you don't do these works you are not saved.

Which do you believe saves you:
1. faith + works
2. faith without works

Most will deny #1 and say that they are not saying works save anyone. Then why the objections to those that believe in faith only?

If you say #2 then there will be all kinds of remarks about faith being proven by works. No matter how you try to ignore the obvious that means faith + works.

Now is when people will state that they are not taking about salvation but merely that a child of God will do works. If a child of God WILL do good works then why all the writing about works?

I do not believe we are made perfect by the flesh and neither did Paul in Gal. 3

 

[vja4Him]

Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

So James want us to SHOW our faith , through our actions Jam 2:18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from [thy] works, and I by my works will show thee [my] faith. (meaning: I will walk through the fire (works) and then you try to convince me about your faith, if you do not want to walk through it )

Our salvation cannot depend upon our works. The Pharisees had good works, and they had the right appearance of being righteous, holy, men of God, good people, doing the right things, and even teaching the right things, BUT .... their heart was NOT right with God.

Inside they were rotten to the core .... NOT saved ....

You see, you can have all the good works you can muster up, but they will NOT save you. If you rely upon your good works for your salvation, you are walking on egg shells .....

 

[Cornelius]

If you do not believe in eternal security then you must believe in works. It is that simple. If you believe in works then you are not saved by God's grace but by your works.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

This justification is to prove our faith to others, not to God. God already knows our heart, and He knows our intents. He knows those who belong to Him. People do NOT. They see our good works, and therefore we are justified in the eyes of men, when they see our good works.

James 2:18

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

We also have to prove faith to God. As you say, He knows the heart of man. In the hart of man dwells nothing good. Its only Christ in us, that is good. Show , by your actions that you believe.

Walk as Jesus walked.

 

[vja4Him]

Humble Yourself Before God ...

Luke 18:10-14

10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

You see, the Pharisse had good works, and thought that he was right before God because he did the right things. BUT ....

It was the sinner, who could only cry to God for mercy, who was justified before God. Not by his works, but by his humble attitude, and crying out to God for mercy, trusting in the grace and forgiveness of God.

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

Our salvation cannot depend upon our works. .

I am sorry, but God disagrees with you.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

 

[RichardBurger]

Abraham added a "work" to his faith. He believed so strongly in the promise (Isaac) that he KNEW God would not allow him to be killed. And IF God allowed it, God would raise him from the dead. He then added a work: HE LIFTED THE KNIFE............only then did God see his faith.


Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (This is the "work" of faith ! )

Here is the acknowledgement that his faith is seen as faith, because of his works:

Gen 22:11 And the angel of Jehovah called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham. And he said, Here I am.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him. F[color=#FF0000]or now I know that thou fearest God[/color], seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.

Before Abraham lifted the knife, his faith was DEAD faith. AFTER He lifted the knife, his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness."Seeing that thou hast not withheld thy son............"

Come on people, this is how it works. Its not rocket science! The Bible is clear. Add an action to your faith if you believe something, like Abraham did. If you believe a promise. ACT like you believe !

If people want to act like it, then they should preach the truth in Christ. Preach we are saved and kept saved by the work of God on the cross and certainly not by ANYTHING we do. That we are made children of God "in Christ" and God will not go back on His promises to us.--- But if you do this religious people will certainly rain on your parade.

 

[vja4Him]

Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord ....

Your example is not relevent to salvation. I DO believe that Jesus has saved me. It is the blood of Jesus Christ that has washed away my sins. Sacrifices are no longer necessary to cover our sins.

The price has been paid, once for all. Jesus cannot go back to the cross and die all over again, for our sins. He (Jesus) died once, one sacrifice. The work of salvation is already finished.

I do what the Bible says, and I am saved:

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

Another example:

I phone you and tell you I just deposited $1000 into your account. You tell a friend: "I believe Cornelius has just deposited $1000 into my account !"

Friend: Lets buy something , do you have your checkbook with you?

You: Yes I do, but yesterday I did not have any money in my account
Friend: But Cornelius just deposited $1000 into your account, don't you believe him?
You: Of course I believe him.
Friend: Then act on your faith and write a check for a $1000 .
You: I believe him, but yesterday I did not have any money.
Friend: AHHH you do NOT believe he actually deposited the money ! Your actions tells me that you do not have faith in the fact that Cornelius actually deposited that money !
You: No, I really believe he did, I have faith in the fact!
Friend : Then SHOW ME and write the check !

Faith without works is dead !

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Humble Yourself Before God ...

Luke 18:10-14

10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

You see, the Pharisse had good works, and thought that he was right before God because he did the right things. BUT ....

It was the sinner, who could only cry to God for mercy, who was justified before God. Not by his works, but by his humble attitude, and crying out to God for mercy, trusting in the grace and forgiveness of God.

You are still confusing the "works" that James is talking about with "good works". The Bible cannot contradict itself. It tells us clearly that "good works" will not save you. We cannot work for salvation. But then it tells us that we also need works ! Now it seems like a contradiction. Which it cannot be. So if we just stop and think, we will get it.

The works are not the same in Romans and in James ! We cannot work for salvation. But we cannot say we have faith if we do not SHOW it.That is the difference. James has moved on and is now talking to the believers. They have already started their rebirth path.Now he is teaching them how to receive the promises of God and he is teaching them faith in what God says (They already have faith IN God......they now need to have faith in what He SAYS !)

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord ....

I do what the Bible says, and I am saved:

Show me !

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord ....

I do what the Bible says, and I am saved:

Show me !

1Jo 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

You are the one who .........saith.

 

[RichardBurger]

Re: Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

Our salvation cannot depend upon our works. .

I am sorry, but God disagrees with you.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

No, James disagrees with grace because he did not believe it applied to the Jews. This is proven in Acts 21:20-21.

By the way you are not God. When the Jews were carried off into slavery their preists were all killed and it was the will of God because they were teaching the people things that God did not say.

Titus 3:4-5
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
NKJV

Romans 4:2-4
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

 

[vja4Him]

The word used here is "works" not fruit of the Spirit. James is saying that if we have faith, what we DO will point to the fact. Without these works, our faith is in fact dead. He is saying that a person who believes something, will act like a person that believes something.

That "act" is the works of faith. It is logical, because if you tell me you believe that the fire will not hurt you, then show me by walking through it. (That is the work of faith! ) Faith without that , is dead faith (only words) James is saying, if you say you have faith.......show it by HOW you act. IN other words, if you say the fire will not hurt you and you do not want to actually walk through it, then you only have words and no faith. The person who says something is so......must walk it. If not: That faith is dead.
am 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

So James want us to SHOW our faith , through our actions Jam 2:18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from [thy] works, and I by my works will show thee [my] faith. (meaning: I will walk through the fire (works) and then you try to convince me about your faith, if you do not want to walk through it )

Then you're giving yourself credit for the work, when it isn't yours.
If you abide in Christ, you allow Him to work through you.
We don't "show our faith" through our actions, we allow Christ to "show forth" His work through us.

Christ is the treasure of our heart..we bring forth good, not by our efforts, but because of Christ in us. The work is His...we do nothing good of ourselves.

am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[quote="Luke 6:45":269zjj63] A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

We can't put the cart before the horse. We follow after, and allow Him to do the work.[/quote:269zjj63]

Amen! Even our good works are not ours .... For we can do nothing without Christ.

 

[RichardBurger]

Re: Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord ....

I do what the Bible says, and I am saved:

Show me !

1Jo 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

You are the one who .........saith.

In the story of the wheat and the tares even the Angles could not tell who the childern were.

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

No, James disagrees with grace because he did not believe it applied to the Jews. This is proven in Acts 21:20-21.

I am sorry, I cannot talk to you, if you believe it was James's opinion. God wrote the Bible , people held the pens.

 

[glorydaz]

These works are not just "good works". That is why you are getting confused. Read the example I gave about the check. Those are the "works" that follow faith.

Its so simple and logical ! James is just saying, that we should not just SAY something, we should also SHOW what we believe. We SHOW by our actions that we believe something. James calls that a "work"

James calls that a work, but it's Christ's work in us...the fruit of the Spirit.

Here is the exact same thing. James is not speaking of works, as something we do in our own strength or effort, but of fruits of the Spirit.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We're to walk in the love of Christ...that isn't work, it's surrender. "Let go and let God" is more than just a saying. It's a walk. When we strive to show by our actions, then we take control away from God.

1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

As we show forth the love of Christ in us, people will see good things happen...they might even call it our good works. But they aren't our good works, they're His love being manifest through us. Those are the works of which James speaks.

13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[vja4Him]

Then you're giving yourself credit for the work, when it isn't yours.
If you abide in Christ, you allow Him to work through you.
We don't "show our faith" through our actions, we allow Christ to "show forth" His work through us.

.

I cannot get the credit, because I have been crucified with Christ and no longer live. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

A dead person cannot take credit for anything. Christ, Who lives in me, is doing the works of faith through me, that I was pointing out to you.

Sounds like something that I would say .... It is Christ in me, giving me the ability to do good works. But I am not doing the good works for salvation.