SALVATION

[vja4Him]

The faith in us, is His faith.

I'm not so sure that I would go along with this idea that our faith is really His faith ... That sounds like one of the WoF teachings that I don't agree with ....

 

[glorydaz]

If you do not believe in eternal security then you must believe in works. It is that simple. If you believe in works then you are not saved by God's grace but by your works.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

This justification is to prove our faith to others, not to God. God already knows our heart, and He knows our intents. He knows those who belong to Him. People do NOT. They see our good works, and therefore we are justified in the eyes of men, when they see our good works.

James 2:18

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Exactly....man sees the after-effects of God's work through us. When we allow the love of Christ to be manifest through us, it may look like our good works, but it isn't. It's the fruit of the Spirit they see, which is the love of God being poured out through this temple (us) He inhabits. We are justified by our faith and the works that show forth are merely the evidence man can look at to know we are the Lord's.

 

[vja4Him]

The Cross of Jesus ...

We can start this walk in Christ, but then find that the price is too high to pay and then we stop following Jesus to the cross.

Something isn't right here .... I don't need to keep following Jesus to the cross. I come to the cross of Jesus for salvation one time. Jesus was crucified one time. We don't need to crucify Jesus over and over ....

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

 

[vja4Him]

Justified In Man's Eyes ....

We are only justified by our works in the eyes of man, not God. God looks at the blood of Jesus Christ covering our sins. We are saved by the work that Jesus Christ has already finished.

Otherwise, the Bible would tell us plainly to confess that Jesus is Lord and add some good works to that, then you will be saved. BUT ... That is NOT what the Bible says or teaches.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Our salvation is NOT by works. However, in man's eyes, we are justified by our works. There is a huge difference ....

You are misunderstanding what we are talking about. We are not talking about pre-salvation and somebody that wants to "work" for salvation. We are talking when somebody has started the walk, that came through grace (not works) .Now some will say that after we start to be born from above, that we need not "work" with God , and that indeed we need NO works after we have started this walk. Well, those who say that , must still learn what this means: Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Please take note that these works mentioned here are the works that proves to God that indeed you have faith (or not) You are not just called upon to say you believe one of the promises, you have to also ACT on that faith and WALK your belief. If not........your faith is dead.

 

[vja4Him]

Faith of Abraham ...

Romans 4:9

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith, not his works. Works only come after we are saved, because we love God, and want to please Him, not to keep us saved.

Abraham added a "work" to his faith. He believed so strongly in the promise (Isaac) that he KNEW God would not allow him to be killed. And IF God allowed it, God would raise him from the dead. He then added a work: HE LIFTED THE KNIFE............only then did God see his faith.


Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (This is the "work" of faith ! )

Here is the acknowledgement that his faith is seen as faith, because of his works:

Gen 22:11 And the angel of Jehovah called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham. And he said, Here I am.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him. F[color=#FF0000]or now I know that thou fearest God[/color], seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.

Before Abraham lifted the knife, his faith was DEAD faith. AFTER He lifted the knife, his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness."Seeing that thou hast not withheld thy son............"

Come on people, this is how it works. Its not rocket science! The Bible is clear. Add an action to your faith if you believe something, like Abraham did. If you believe a promise. ACT like you believe !

 

[glorydaz]

Abraham added a "work" to his faith. He believed so strongly in the promise (Isaac) that he KNEW God would not allow him to be killed. And IF God allowed it, God would raise him from the dead. He then added a work: HE LIFTED THE KNIFE............only then did God see his faith.


Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (This is the "work" of faith ! )

Here is the acknowledgement that his faith is seen as faith, because of his works:

Gen 22:11 And the angel of Jehovah called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham. And he said, Here I am.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him. F[color=#FF0000]or now I know that thou fearest God[/color], seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.

Before Abraham lifted the knife, his faith was DEAD faith. AFTER He lifted the knife, his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness."Seeing that thou hast not withheld thy son............"

Come on people, this is how it works. Its not rocket science! The Bible is clear. Add an action to your faith if you believe something, like Abraham did. If you believe a promise. ACT like you believe !

Abraham was justified by his faith because He believed God....
He was reckoned righteous long before he lifted the knife.
Because he believed God and was already justified by his faith, he obeyed God, just as we all do who truly believe.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

Our salvation cannot depend upon our works. .

I am sorry, but God disagrees with you.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Not, God does not disagree with me! You do.

I believe the Bible, not the faulty interpretations of man.

John 14:6, "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Jesus said that you cannot come to the Father except through Him (Jesus). Not Jesus plus works ....

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Humble Yourself Before God ...

Luke 18:10-14

10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

You see, the Pharisse had good works, and thought that he was right before God because he did the right things. BUT ....

It was the sinner, who could only cry to God for mercy, who was justified before God. Not by his works, but by his humble attitude, and crying out to God for mercy, trusting in the grace and forgiveness of God.

What a great example....

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Humble Yourself Before God ...

It seems as if you are playing word games now .... You have already made it clear that you do believe works are necessary for salvation, but now you are saying the opposite ...

Luke 18:10-14

10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

You see, the Pharisse had good works, and thought that he was right before God because he did the right things. BUT ....

It was the sinner, who could only cry to God for mercy, who was justified before God. Not by his works, but by his humble attitude, and crying out to God for mercy, trusting in the grace and forgiveness of God.

You are still confusing the "works" that James is talking about with "good works". The Bible cannot contradict itself. It tells us clearly that "good works" will not save you. We cannot work for salvation. But then it tells us that we also need works ! Now it seems like a contradiction. Which it cannot be. So if we just stop and think, we will get it.

The works are not the same in Romans and in James ! We cannot work for salvation. But we cannot say we have faith if we do not SHOW it.That is the difference. James has moved on and is now talking to the believers. They have already started their rebirth path.Now he is teaching them how to receive the promises of God and he is teaching them faith in what God says (They already have faith IN God......they now need to have faith in what He SAYS !)

 

[vja4Him]

Romans - James Contradiction ... ???

There really is no contradiction between Romans and James. We are saved ONLY by the WORKS of Jesus Christ, period. But ....

Once we are saved, our faith will lead us to do good works for the Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

Our salvation cannot depend upon our works. .

I am sorry, but God disagrees with you.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

No, friend, the Bible doesn't disagree.
You just aren't understanding what James is saying here.

It's never good to stand so hard on one verse that you ignore the rest of scripture.
James is speaking of the evidences of the fruit of the spirit that are manifest to other men. We have nothing to prove to God...it's His love in us that is shown forth. He knows when it comes from Him or when it comes from our own efforts. Our own righteous works are as filthy rags...

By their fruit you shall know them.
If someone shows no evidence of God's love, then a mountain of works will never justify him.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord ....

I do what the Bible says, and I am saved:

Show me !

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

 

[shad]

Re: Pleasing the Lord ....

Shad -- I agree with you wholeheartedly ... that we should keep His commandments. But not for our salvation. True Christians will WANT to do good works because they WANT to please the Lord, and be obedient, but NOT to gain merit or acceptance from God, in order to bank on heaven.

So Jesus' commandments aren't to be followed unless we WANT to follow them?

You guys are making excuses one after another by saying you dont need works for salvation. If you WANT to do them, why do you keep giving reasons why we DON'T need to do them??

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Humble Yourself Before God ...

You are still confusing the "works" that James is talking about with "good works". The Bible cannot contradict itself. It tells us clearly that "good works" will not save you. We cannot work for salvation. But then it tells us that we also need works ! Now it seems like a contradiction. Which it cannot be. So if we just stop and think, we will get it.

The works are not the same in Romans and in James ! We cannot work for salvation. But we cannot say we have faith if we do not SHOW it.That is the difference. James has moved on and is now talking to the believers. They have already started their rebirth path.Now he is teaching them how to receive the promises of God and he is teaching them faith in what God says (They already have faith IN God......they now need to have faith in what He SAYS !)

Now you're talking about raising the knife.
Yes, to receive blessings we walk in obedience.
When we don't obey, we're chastened.
Does God ask us to do hard things after we're saved?
Yes, as he did here with Abraham...God did "tempt" Abraham.

1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Did He tempt him in order to take away his salvation if he failed to obey?
No, he was "purging" Abraham so he would grow in his faith.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away(lifts up): and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Pharisees and Their Good Works ...

Our salvation cannot depend upon our works. .

I am sorry, but God disagrees with you.

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

No, James disagrees with grace because he did not believe it applied to the Jews. This is proven in Acts 21:20-21.

No, that isn't right. James didn't disagree with grace. His term "works" is being misunderstood.
He was speaking of the proof man looks at, nothing more, nothing less. By their fruits you will know them. It's the outward evidence man can look at to know if we're truly filled with the Spirit. We can see if a man has the love of God in him by his love for God and men. Of course that love will be manifest in good works...people can see the love of God in us by how we love others.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord ....

I do what the Bible says, and I am saved:

Show me !

Heck, we are showing you. We aren't attacking you with venom because you're being so stubborn. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

The faith in us, is His faith.

I'm not so sure that I would go along with this idea that our faith is really His faith ... That sounds like one of the WoF teachings that I don't agree with ....

There is both His faith and our faith in Him.
Two different purposes...two different faiths.
The faith of Christ is more appropriately called the faithfulness of Christ.
His faith is imputed to us like His righteousness is.

The faith of Christ is the faithfulness of Christ whereupon we believe or don't believe...as the case may be. His faith is implanted in us as we hear the Gospel. Faith cometh by hearing. Then we can increase our faith as we walk in the Word and subject ourselves to His will.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

- Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The Cross of Jesus ...

We can start this walk in Christ, but then find that the price is too high to pay and then we stop following Jesus to the cross.

Something isn't right here .... I don't need to keep following Jesus to the cross. I come to the cross of Jesus for salvation one time. Jesus was crucified one time. We don't need to crucify Jesus over and over ....

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

You're correct...What isn't right is to continue following Jesus to the cross.
We're crucified with Christ once...just as He was.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Likewise, we are raised with Him into newness of life...born again. You can't be truly saved until you're born again...raised from the dead.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Justified In Man's Eyes ....

We are only justified by our works in the eyes of man, not God. God looks at the blood of Jesus Christ covering our sins. We are saved by the work that Jesus Christ has already finished.

Otherwise, the Bible would tell us plainly to confess that Jesus is Lord and add some good works to that, then you will be saved. BUT ... That is NOT what the Bible says or teaches.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Our salvation is NOT by works. However, in man's eyes, we are justified by our works. There is a huge difference ....

Amen. Paul spoke of justification before God, and James speaks of justification before men.
You nailed it, and all of scripture backs you up.

 

[vja4Him]

Falsely Accusing People ....

Shad -- I agree with you wholeheartedly ... that we should keep His commandments. But not for our salvation. True Christians will WANT to do good works because they WANT to please the Lord, and be obedient, but NOT to gain merit or acceptance from God, in order to bank on heaven.

So Jesus' commandments aren't to be followed unless we WANT to follow them?

You guys are making excuses one after another by saying you dont need works for salvation. If you WANT to do them, why do you keep giving reasons why we DON'T need to do them??

You are twisting people's words .... I don't recall anyone saying what you are accusing us of .... You should edit your post, and take out the part where you accuse us of making excuses and claiming that we are saying you only have to do works if you want to ...

I never said that, and I haven't seen anyone else saying that here .....