francisdesales
Member
Re: Works Based Salvation ...
Let's say you are correct, that Christ is refering to people of all ages and all times... Very well. Let's see where that leads us.
The issue remains WHO HAS THE FATHER GIVEN CHRIST? WE do not know that!!! Even the OSAS do not know that, because YOU PERSONALLY may fall away - and thus, you will have proven that in 5 years, you were NOT one given to Christ by the Father...
OSAS is not eternal security, far from it. If ONE PERSON has been proven to have fallen away (which it is obvious to have happened), despite being REALLY REALLY REALLY sure they were saved in the past, it proves one thing...
That OSAS is wrong...
OSAS proves nothing, since it cannot predict the future. Since the future cannot be predicted, the PRESENT remains unknown!!!
THIS is NOT the Scriptural presentation on justification. WE KNOW we are made just in God's eyes. Even if we were to subsequently become unjust by our disobedience, our "past" justification was legitimate, we WERE born from above and there is no need to question God on this. WE KNOW we are in Christ and will NEVER have to question whether we knew Jesus THEN. The OSAS position subtly tells us we do not even REALLY know if we know Jesus TODAY - since in the future, it may be determined that "He never knew you to begin with". With THIS theology, you justification is unsure TODAY. This is totally unbiblical, thus, making OSAS utterly false...
Only at the end of time will we know the contents of the Eschatological Church. The spotless bride will be presented ONLY at the end of time. Christ presents an interesting parable on wheat and tares. They often appear the same, thus, the hearer of this parable comes to realize that WE cannot judge who is "in" and who is "outside" the "REAL" Church - that is only something that God will determine at the end. All we can do is CONTINUE to obey Christ and walk in His grace-filled presence.
yes, Jesus knows who will REMAIN. We are not privy to that information. Thus, WE here on the ground in time cannot know whether we will fall away or not. Thus, OSAS is a pitiful attempt to CLAIM that we will not fall, that we are one of those given to the Father that cannot fall. This is presumption, an empty claim based upon our LACK of knowledge on the future of our walk.
We both know people who began their walk, very actively. But during difficult times, they fell away. Re-read the parable of the sower and the seed. IF you claim, in the beginning, to have received the Word and are eternally saved, what proof do you have that you are NOT one of those who, during difficult times, the Word of God falls away from you? There is no time stamp on given in the parable. No "after this time, you will know you are indeed saved". No. The parable's point is to tell us that Christians who KNEW Christ, who joyfully received the Word, WERE saved, etc., CAN fall away, at any point, in the future.
The promise of eternal life remains ONLY for those who REMAIN in Christ. There is no "one time declaration" that guarantees eternal life - who is Jesus Christ HIMSELF.
We will never know, from God's point of view, who is "HIS", in this particular discussion. There is no Biblical guarantee given. There is HOPE. Paul talks about hope and faith, NOT a guarantee that we CANNOT fall away on our own volition...
EVEN PAUL HIMSELF says HE could be disqualified. IF PAUL could say that, what does that mean for the OSAS group??? They are deluded, that's what it says.
All we know is from our point of view - that I am saved, and remain His TODAY. TODAY. That is the extent of our knowledge. It is pretend security otherwise...
Perhaps you should explain at WHAT POINT one is a "born again creature". Use biblical pasages, if you could...
I sense that here is your problem.
Regards
glorydaz said:
Let's say you are correct, that Christ is refering to people of all ages and all times... Very well. Let's see where that leads us.
The issue remains WHO HAS THE FATHER GIVEN CHRIST? WE do not know that!!! Even the OSAS do not know that, because YOU PERSONALLY may fall away - and thus, you will have proven that in 5 years, you were NOT one given to Christ by the Father...
OSAS is not eternal security, far from it. If ONE PERSON has been proven to have fallen away (which it is obvious to have happened), despite being REALLY REALLY REALLY sure they were saved in the past, it proves one thing...
That OSAS is wrong...
OSAS proves nothing, since it cannot predict the future. Since the future cannot be predicted, the PRESENT remains unknown!!!
THIS is NOT the Scriptural presentation on justification. WE KNOW we are made just in God's eyes. Even if we were to subsequently become unjust by our disobedience, our "past" justification was legitimate, we WERE born from above and there is no need to question God on this. WE KNOW we are in Christ and will NEVER have to question whether we knew Jesus THEN. The OSAS position subtly tells us we do not even REALLY know if we know Jesus TODAY - since in the future, it may be determined that "He never knew you to begin with". With THIS theology, you justification is unsure TODAY. This is totally unbiblical, thus, making OSAS utterly false...
Only at the end of time will we know the contents of the Eschatological Church. The spotless bride will be presented ONLY at the end of time. Christ presents an interesting parable on wheat and tares. They often appear the same, thus, the hearer of this parable comes to realize that WE cannot judge who is "in" and who is "outside" the "REAL" Church - that is only something that God will determine at the end. All we can do is CONTINUE to obey Christ and walk in His grace-filled presence.
glorydaz said:Ah, so Jesus does keep His own = Once Saved Always Saved.
Welcome to the club, brother.
yes, Jesus knows who will REMAIN. We are not privy to that information. Thus, WE here on the ground in time cannot know whether we will fall away or not. Thus, OSAS is a pitiful attempt to CLAIM that we will not fall, that we are one of those given to the Father that cannot fall. This is presumption, an empty claim based upon our LACK of knowledge on the future of our walk.
We both know people who began their walk, very actively. But during difficult times, they fell away. Re-read the parable of the sower and the seed. IF you claim, in the beginning, to have received the Word and are eternally saved, what proof do you have that you are NOT one of those who, during difficult times, the Word of God falls away from you? There is no time stamp on given in the parable. No "after this time, you will know you are indeed saved". No. The parable's point is to tell us that Christians who KNEW Christ, who joyfully received the Word, WERE saved, etc., CAN fall away, at any point, in the future.
The promise of eternal life remains ONLY for those who REMAIN in Christ. There is no "one time declaration" that guarantees eternal life - who is Jesus Christ HIMSELF.
glorydaz said:Oops, then you went back and mentioned if we lose our faith we'll be lost...
So we were never His to begin with, right?
Oops, welcome back to once saved always saved.
We will never know, from God's point of view, who is "HIS", in this particular discussion. There is no Biblical guarantee given. There is HOPE. Paul talks about hope and faith, NOT a guarantee that we CANNOT fall away on our own volition...
EVEN PAUL HIMSELF says HE could be disqualified. IF PAUL could say that, what does that mean for the OSAS group??? They are deluded, that's what it says.
All we know is from our point of view - that I am saved, and remain His TODAY. TODAY. That is the extent of our knowledge. It is pretend security otherwise...
glorydaz said:
Perhaps you should explain at WHAT POINT one is a "born again creature". Use biblical pasages, if you could...
I sense that here is your problem.
Regards
