SALVATION

[Cornelius]

No brother. Its because you want to see this truth only through a certain pair of glasses.

The Lord is not talking about unbelievers hearing the truth about the gospel here. He is showing us the Christian path. He is showing us how we can gladly hear the message (of faith, for instance) Then that truth gets tested (Jesus says: persecution comes because of the Word ) Now the Christians has a choice. To stand on the promise and allow the Word to bear fruit or give up because of the pressures .Some are on rocky ground , and these Christians do not even allow the Word to take root in them. In some we see a little growth and in other we see the Word manifest itself . We see those people getting healed, getting delivered, we see them bringing the same to others.

Christians run away form miracles, but its PART of being a Christian. When the Word (promises) are taken seriously, we all are able to enter into their manifestation, which always involved God's power over our own. Our weakness MUST bring His power as a regular solution , where we make a decision to be weak, so that He can be strong.

 

[Cornelius]

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Saved from what, is the question.

Saved from being killed by those who hate us?
Saved from the wrath to come?

Saved in childbirth?
Saved from false teachings?
Our lives will be saved?

There are many things to be saved from...if we're born again it isn't referring to our eternal salvation.

Saved from the curse. And all who manifest this salvation will be part of the elect. (chosen)

You and I are called with many others to bear fruit. To manifest Christ ! But not everybody will do this. Many are called , but few in the end are chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

 

[glorydaz]

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Saved from what, is the question.

Saved from being killed by those who hate us?
Saved from the wrath to come?

Saved in childbirth?
Saved from false teachings?
Our lives will be saved?

There are many things to be saved from...if we're born again it isn't referring to our eternal salvation.

Saved from the curse. And all who manifest this salvation will be part of the elect. (chosen)

You and I are called with many others to bear fruit. To manifest Christ ! But not everybody will do this. Many are called , but few in the end are chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Brother, with that kind of logic you'll have a lot of trouble reconciling all the uses of the word saved.
You can't read eternal salvation into every scripture that says saved.
Noah was saved from the flood, women are saved through childbirth, our lives can be saved from our enemies. Many are called to repent, but they don't. Many are called is not referring to the saved...it's referring to all men every where who are called to repent.
We aren't called to bear fruit, we're called into newness of life.
The fruit is the Spirit's not ours to bear. The fruit comes from Him...not us.

 

[Cornelius]

Brother, with that kind of logic you'll have a lot of trouble reconciling all the uses of the word saved.
You can't read eternal salvation into every scripture that says saved.
Noah was saved from the flood, women are saved through childbirth, our lives can be saved from our enemies. Many are called to repent, but they don't. Many are called is not referring to the saved...it's referring to all men every where who are called to repent.

No brother, this is an old error in most churches. They teach you that this is revering to unbelievers, but it is not. Its revering to Christians who must manifest Christ.

glorydaz wrote:
We aren't called to bear fruit, we're called into newness of life.
[quote:17fde1bw]
Wow brother.

Luk 8:8 And other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit a hundredfold. As he said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 8:15 And that in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away[/b]: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. (So much for OSAS !)

[/quote:17fde1bw]
glorydaz wrote:The fruit is the Spirit's not ours to bear. The fruit comes from Him...not us.

I know you are meaning well, because I can see that in your spirit. But please tell me what your understanding is about this verse:

Cr 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

No brother, this is an old error in most churches. They teach you that this is revering to unbelievers, but it is not. Its revering to Christians who must manifest Christ.

Sorry, I can't agree. God calls all men everywhere to repent.

glorydaz wrote:
We aren't called to bear fruit, we're called into newness of life.

Wow brother.

Luk 8:8 And other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit a hundredfold. As he said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 8:15 And that in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away[/b]: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. (So much for OSAS !)

Those who haven't been born again, do not have the fruit of the Spirit...period.
A branch that bears no fruit is not a born again believer.

I know you are meaning well, because I can see that in your spirit. But please tell me what your understanding is about this verse:

Cr 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

You've given me too many verses. I can not put my comments in because I can't go very far down on this page, and when you use colors, I can't even add my comments in your text. I will have to address this last verse in a different post. Sorry, but that's why I said to please put up one verse at a time.

 

[glorydaz]

In fact...it's late and I have to get up in four hours.
I'll get back to you on this...I promise. :yes

 

[Panin]

No brother. Its because you want to see this truth only through a certain pair of glasses.

Yes ones that work.


2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:9 :9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:10 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].

 

[Cornelius]

[

PS: how do you keep in Christ?

Two ways:
1) By faith
2) By staying the the Word . Meaning, all my actions must be in line with Christ (Word) Then I am found in Him.

 

[Cornelius]

Sorry, I can't agree. God calls all men everywhere to repent.

Yes, but that does not make you the elect when you do. Being chosen is shown to be "FEW" are chosen. Not the millions and millions of Christians we see around us these days. You are indeed called to manifest Christ, to walk as He walked. Surely you are familiar with those scriptures? Do you believe them ? Do you think that we can ignore them and that they are only meant for a few Christians?

No of course not. They are meant for us all. You and I both are called to walk as Jesus walked in all ways of our lives. We must manifest Christ. As we can see, this is not the case in the general church, because that is not their understanding. That being so, God say "My people (WE are His people ) perish because of a lack of knowledge."

v. per·ished, per·ish·ing, per·ish·es
v.intr.
1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner: 2. To pass from existence; disappear 3. Chiefly British To spoil or deteriorate.

 

[Cornelius]

Dear Cornelius, I have no doubt you are saved and that we are brothers in Christ, I just dont agree that we can ever lose our salvation.

So, when the word talks of 20, 30, 100 fold etc, what do you think this means? Souls saved, spirtual fruit, what exactly?

Brother, if you read the whole chapter about the Seed , then you will understand what it means.Here is a synopsis . Jesus says: The Word (which we know John1:1 says is God ) is sown by the Sower (Jesus) into the hearts of the believer. Genesis tells us that each seed brings forth after its own kind. So this Seed too, will bring forth after its own kind. Which kind? God-kind. That is why those who produce the Fruit of the seed are called 'sons of God" (not just children anymore, but sons. These sons are spoken of by Paul in Romans , the whole creation is waiting for them Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. "Revealing" and "waiteth" shows us that this is still hidden and also that it is still to come )

We all are either on the rocky road and the Word brings no fruit. Or sometimes the enemy steals the truth from our hearts (birds of the air) and sometimes we get so busy with work and the car breaks down and the wife is angry, that we forget the Word and it gets strangled out and it bears little id any fruit.

The believers who allow this Word-seed to fall into their hearts and they who keep the Word-seed in front of them ( "tied to their foreheads between the eyes") they start seeing all things through the Word. Anything then becomes possible for them. Satan brings a situation and they tackle it with the Sword of the Word. The Seed which is Christ, starts growing in them and as they partake of that same Word, He (Christ) grows stronger in them and their flesh-man (self life) starts dying (Romans) They start manifesting Christ, because He becomes the solution for everything in their lives.

Some manifest Him thirty fold, some sixty fold, some a hundred fold. This is shown in type when Jesus takes only three disciples up on the mountain with Him. Peter, James and John. Also Paul speaks of the 30, 60, and 100 fold in another way: he calls it ; star, moon and sun glory.

So the fruit is how much of Christ you show in your life brother.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes ones that work.


2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Those glasses doesn't work... Of course God knows how to deliver us from temptations. It doesn't follow that WE will accept that grace and avoid temptations...

Let's continue reading what Peter wrote in this chapter...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, Peter felt that Christians could return to a sinful life and NOT be saved - he specifically says "worse off than the beginning" and "better for them NOT to know the ways of righteousness".

Think long and hard on those comments, my friend...

A saved person (one who has escaped the pollutions of the world defines a saved person, correct?) CANNOT be worse off than the beginning, thus, his status with God has changed to "UNSAVED" - worse off than before. A person who returns to the pollutions of the world shows evidence that they are no longer saved.

Regards

 

[shad]

Christianity is all about being loyal to God and Jesus.

It is very clear in the Bible that God and Jesus expect us to be holy and righteous as they are Holy and Righteous. God did not send His Son to give us free pass to sin.

It is impossible to do? Jesus says nothing is impossible with God.

Yes, we can lose salvation, according to the Bible.

C can look it up for you if you cannot find the Scriptures I mentioned above. :D

.

 

[vja4Him]

Work Out Your Salvation ....

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

I do not believe this scripture is teaching that we can lose our salvation, as some would claim. God simply wants us to take our salvation more seriously, and do something for His kingdom. Get our there and do something, but not because we are afraid that we might lose our salvation, but because we love God, and love others, and want to share the good news of Jesus Christ, who has already paid the penalty for our sins.

We may strive to manifest Christ, but we are still human there is no way our trying to be perfect can get us into heaven, that is why Christ died on the cross.

No, we are not to strive. We are to REST .Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[vja4Him]

My salvation is secure in Jesus ...

That is so. As long as you keep it IN Christ. No person who slips out of Christ is IN Christ anymore, no matter who they started.

Its how you finish this race.

No overcoming, no salvation.

So, in other words, you DO believe in a works-based salvation ... You MUST do something to get or keep your salvation. So, according to the doctrine of salvation that you espouse, you do have something to do with your salvation, which means that according to your salvation doctrine, Jesus did NOT pay ALL of the price. You have to pay something too ...

That is not Biblical, and is heresy! Jesus DID PAY ALL of the price for our sins. Our salvation can only depend COMPLETELY, 100% on what Jesus already did. I (we, you, everyone) cannot pay for even one tiny piece of my salvation.

No matter how many good works I do, it all is counted as filthy rags. You see, I, you, we, everyone, has NO righteousness, none at all whatsoever. There is none who does good, not you, not me, not anyone, not even the most righteous person who ever lived. Even that nice little old lady, who never (as far as we can see/know) did anyone wrong to anyone, even she is a sinner, damned to spend eternity in hell, even though she may have done more righteous deeds than a hundred people.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[vja4Him]

None Righteous ....

Psalm 14:3

They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10

As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one.â€

Romans 3:12

They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.

 

[vja4Him]

My salvation is secure in Jesus ...

That is so. As long as you keep it IN Christ. No person who slips out of Christ is IN Christ anymore, no matter who they started.

Its how you finish this race.

No overcoming, no salvation.

Wrong way round mate. No salvation, no overcoming. The END.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

PS: how do you keep in Christ?

Amen! The thing is .... We CANNOT keep in Christ! That is something that God does for us. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We cannot seal ourselves into Christ.

We can walk in Christ, meaning that we can demonstrate our faith to others, like the Bible says in James demonstrating our faith by our works. And somewhere else (1 John?) it says that we will know the children of God by their love for God and others.

Christians can and will bear fruit for the kingdom of God. Anyone who is not bearing fruit for Christ, never belonged to Christ. Even the world (unsaved) bear good fruit, so if you go by what you see, then many people who are not Christians are also saved.

And you see, this is where the cults come in .... Many have been deceived into believing there are many ways to heaven. Just be good, believe in God, or many gods. Believe in Jesus Christ, Buddaha, Mohammned, Joseph Smith. Just keep your bag full of belief in many, so you will have plenty of belief and good works to get you into heaven.

This is a lie, and confusion from the pits of hell. You cannot do any works to get you into heaven. Christ did all the works, already. The works for salvation are FINISHED. You need to accept the GIFT of salvation from God.

John 10

John 10

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

 

[shad]

So, in other words, you DO believe in a works-based salvation ...

We do believe in what the Bible says. We dont believe in what the churches want us to believe. so simple, firend.

.

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Work Out Your Salvation ....

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

I do not believe this scripture is teaching that we can lose our salvation, as some would claim. God simply wants us to take our salvation more seriously, and do something for His kingdom. Get our there and do something, but not because we are afraid that we might lose our salvation, but because we love God, and love others, and want to share the good news of Jesus Christ, who has already paid the penalty for our sins.

We may strive to manifest Christ, but we are still human there is no way our trying to be perfect can get us into heaven, that is why Christ died on the cross.

No, we are not to strive. We are to REST .Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Your quotes are not correct I did not write that .......you did. And then you made my quote yours !

To work out your salvation with fear and trembling is not striving. We must trust in the promises. We must fear that we might not be in faith and see to it, that we are.That makes me tremble, the very thought that I might be relying on myself , when God wants me to rely on His Word.

 

[vja4Him]

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am very saddened in my heart to see you write what you did below .... I can see clearly that you have NO assurance of your salvation ... You said yourself that we cannot even know who we are (which ones in the Parable of the Sower).

That is very sad my friend. You (we) can know who we are in Christ. And the Parable of the Sower is talking about those who were NOT saved and those who WERE (ARE) saved. They were NOT all Christians, then some lost their salvation.

Many people hear the gospel. Some even seem to have accepted the gospel, and seem like they are believers. And maybe they really do believe (even the demons believe in Jesus!) but they did NOT lose their salvation. They were NEVER saved in the first place.

The attitude that you portray (your post below) is very similar to what I have seen in the Johovah's Witness cult, and other cults. They cannot know if they are among the saved or not, and so they must continue doing as many good works as they possibly can, and just hope that they might make it to heaven ....

This whole works belief system also leads to strife, because then people are trying to out-do one another. They see someone else doing more good works than they do, so they try even harder ... Knock on more doors, pass out more tracks. witness to more people, dress nicer, better, more expensive clothes, etc.....

Right, but all who this parable speak about are believers or Christians. Some of the rocky ground and sandy ground Christians are also preaching to us today.

We do not get to say which we are. We are all on this road and on this road there are sandy patches and rocky patches. We all have struggled with these. Sometimes the sands wins or the birds (demons) grab the Word from us. But we are BEING born from above. It is an everyday event. The Seed (Word) falls into our hearts (spirit) and in some it bears little or no fruit.

But in those who overcome, it bears thirty, sixty and a hundred fold. Twenty fold of fruit in a believer is strangely left out. Seems like God is saying: Thirty is the least fruit you can bear.Less than that are those who are in sandy and rocky patches with little or no fruit.

C

 

[vja4Him]

We do not get to say which we are. We are all on this road and on this road there are sandy patches and rocky patches. We all have struggled with these. Sometimes the sands wins or the birds (demons) grab the Word from us. But we are BEING born from above. It is an everyday event. The Seed (Word) falls into our hearts (spirit) and in some it bears little or no fruit.C

I understand very well about the rocky road .... I've been there, and still struggle daily. I've seen the thorns of life, and still experience many trials daily ....

Psalm 37

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

But I know for certain that He (Jesus) is there with me, all of the way, to help me along, and to pick me up when I stumble and fall. The Bible teaches that we should forgive others how many times ... ???

Matthew 18

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?â€
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Jesus expects us to forgive many times, so how much more will God forgive us? He forgives us not just one time, two time, three times, four times, five times, 10 times, 20 times, 50 times, 100 times, but many times ... !!! Hallelujah ... !!!