SALVATION

[glorydaz]

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am not JW but you should not accuse anyone of being a cult and being so judgmental just because you dont agree with their practices and theologies.

.

Ahem...need I remind you of your pm's to me? ;)

 

[shad]

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am not JW but you should not accuse anyone of being a cult and being so judgmental just because you dont agree with their practices and theologies.

.

Ahem...need I remind you of your pm's to me? ;)

what did I say? I dont recall calling you a cult.

 

[glorydaz]

Wrong, my friend. You need to read the entire set of verses more closely...

They escaped the pollutions of the world. How do you suggest one escape such unless one is saved? That is the definition of being saved, to escape sin - the pollutions of the world...

Further, it says they knew the ways of righteousness - and followed them. Again, being saved...

And finally, they turned from the holy commandments - implying they were following them at one point. Again, saved...

Better yet...read the entire chapter. None are saved in this chapter except Noah and Lot. If this board would allow me to, I'd have underlines throughout the entire text. It's filled with workers of iniquity...not saved people at all.

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

No, this chapter is not talking about the saved. The only saved mentioned in the entire portion are Noah and Lot. All the rest are "wells without water", and "servants of corruption". These are those that get preached to in prison only to be released and go their old merry way. Escaping the pollutions of the world is not being saved...the psalm referred to is...Psalm 26...that Psalm was not speaking of the saved but the fool. Professing Christians...knowledge of the Lord or even following the commandments for a season does not mean a person has been saved. A man who fails to manifest godly love...not manufactured love, has never been saved to begin with.

 

[glorydaz]

I am not JW but you should not accuse anyone of being a cult and being so judgmental just because you dont agree with their practices and theologies.

.

Ahem...need I remind you of your pm's to me? ;)

what did I say? I dont recall calling you a cult.

First you asked if I was SDA, then you told me to put aside my Catholic doctrines.
If you didn't outright call me a cult, you more than implied such because my beliefs don't match up with yours. I only brought it up so you could see we all come short.

 

[francisdesales]

Wrong, my friend. You need to read the entire set of verses more closely...

They escaped the pollutions of the world. How do you suggest one escape such unless one is saved? That is the definition of being saved, to escape sin - the pollutions of the world...

Further, it says they knew the ways of righteousness - and followed them. Again, being saved...

And finally, they turned from the holy commandments - implying they were following them at one point. Again, saved...

Better yet...read the entire chapter. None are saved in this chapter except Noah and Lot. If this board would allow me to, I'd have underlines throughout the entire text. It's filled with workers of iniquity...not saved people at all.

Nice try, Noah and Lot are the only ones saved - but not EVER saved! You say this because you already have presumed OSAS is true, despite the clear writing above. The false preachers WERE once saved, as were ANYONE who follows the description given in verses 20-22.

The workers of iniquity are ANYONE who returns to the vomit, not just false teachers - since false teachers originally CAME from the saved community to begin with...

False teachers, and those who follow their WAYS (whether in doctrine, or more often, the ways of the world and evil), RETURNING to the vomit of their former life, are worse off than before being saved!

I emphasize RETURN. Lot and Noah were not returning to the "vomit". That is the formerly saved becoming unsaved... The Scriptures clearly note that someone was RETURNING to a life of pollution. Being saved is the act of LEAVING a life of pollution. This person was once saved, now lost in the vomit of his former life.

The Bible clearly agrees with the common Christian experience - knowing people who ONCE escaped the pollution and slavery of sin (being saved) and have fallen BACK into the pollution and slavery of sin (not saved - worse off than before...)

Jesus says the same thing in the following passage:

When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds [it] empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation." Mat 12:43-45

The man escaped an unclean life when the unclean spirit left - but his situation becomes worse than before as the demons re-habitate this person...

As did the prophets...

Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "[and] not that he should turn from his ways and live? "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ez 18:23-24

No, there is no guarantee of eternal life or rigtheousness if WE reject God and return to a way of life that shows we prefer to follow the ways of the world, the flesh, rather than God. This is Scriptural, OT and NT.

Regards

 

[beardedad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Show me your faith, then I will show you my faith through my works.Faith without works is really very, very dead. If you cannot walk in your salvation in manifestation, then try another religion. One that actually works.

C

The 'manifestation' in James there, C, is simply giving to those in need....feeding and clothing those without those things.
I hope you arent INSERTING anything beyond that into the intent ;)

What is the intent of James, in your opinion? TRUE religion IS about such things, according to this author (James)... Without the manifestation, there is no "saving" faith, just a "dead" faith.

James says nothing about faith declarations made 20 years ago as being salvific, quite the opposite, my brother.

Regards

I meant no disrespect to you or anyone on this thread. But I view salvation as separate from works. That works I do for others is the outpouring of the holy spirit in me. That my salvation comes from the knowledge that Christ has entered me and changed me and no matter what I do I cannot lose him. I know sometimes he carries me instead of me walking beside him but I know he is always there. God's love for us is God's love. You cannot bring him down to human standards or put rules that he is suppose to live by. God is God. Salvation is a gift from God nothing that has to be earned or satisfied with works. When you add conditions you take away from God's love for us. You make him a God that don't love you for who you are but for what you do. That is not my God. He don't love me less for not making a standard. We can never live up to his standard. In a sence we can never be saved by what we do or how we live it is God's grace and mercy through Jesus's death on the cross that saves. Every thing else is for naught. My salvation is assured regardless of what I do. Do I use this as fire insurance no. When someone loves you this much you want to please them, you want to show everyone what God has done for you. But you are also given free will to do wrong. I don't care how selfrightuss you thing you are you could never come close to What God really wants so why try. You can only do the best you can and God already know that. He knows our short commings.

 

[beardedad]

Wrong, my friend. You need to read the entire set of verses more closely...

They escaped the pollutions of the world. How do you suggest one escape such unless one is saved? That is the definition of being saved, to escape sin - the pollutions of the world...

Further, it says they knew the ways of righteousness - and followed them. Again, being saved...

And finally, they turned from the holy commandments - implying they were following them at one point. Again, saved...

Better yet...read the entire chapter. None are saved in this chapter except Noah and Lot. If this board would allow me to, I'd have underlines throughout the entire text. It's filled with workers of iniquity...not saved people at all.

Nice try, Noah and Lot are the only ones saved - but not EVER saved! You say this because you already have presumed OSAS is true, despite the clear writing above. The false preachers WERE once saved, as were ANYONE who follows the description given in verses 20-22.

The workers of iniquity are ANYONE who returns to the vomit, not just false teachers - since false teachers originally CAME from the saved community to begin with...

False teachers, and those who follow their WAYS (whether in doctrine, or more often, the ways of the world and evil), RETURNING to the vomit of their former life, are worse off than before being saved!

I emphasize RETURN. Lot and Noah were not returning to the "vomit". That is the formerly saved becoming unsaved... The Scriptures clearly note that someone was RETURNING to a life of pollution. Being saved is the act of LEAVING a life of pollution. This person was once saved, now lost in the vomit of his former life.

The Bible clearly agrees with the common Christian experience - knowing people who ONCE escaped the pollution and slavery of sin (being saved) and have fallen BACK into the pollution and slavery of sin (not saved - worse off than before...)

Jesus says the same thing in the following passage:

When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds [it] empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation." Mat 12:43-45

The man escaped an unclean life when the unclean spirit left - but his situation becomes worse than before as the demons re-habitate this person...

As did the prophets...

Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "[and] not that he should turn from his ways and live? "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ez 18:23-24

No, there is no guarantee of eternal life or rigtheousness if WE reject God and return to a way of life that shows we prefer to follow the ways of the world, the flesh, rather than God. This is Scriptural, OT and NT.

Regards

God was talking about the wicked Pharisees that did not turn to God but was trying to trick Jesus at that time, not about someone who was already saved. A uncleaned spirit can not dwell within a saved person.

 

[shad]

First you asked if I was SDA, then you told me to put aside my Catholic doctrines.
If you didn't outright call me a cult, you more than implied such because my beliefs don't match up with yours. I only brought it up so you could see we all come short.

I dont think SDA is cult. I certainly dont trust most of Catholic's doctrines but I don't call THEM a cult. Just because I disagree with them is no reason to start name-calling.

I just wanted to know where you are coming from.

.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

This is a works salvation, which the Bible does NOT teach!

Do you know that the Bible says "faith without deed is dead"?

How cannot say dead faith is saved.

You cannot separate faith from work, friend.

Dont try to make the Gospel complicated than actually is; that is called twisting.

.

You are correct. FAITH (not salvation) is dead without works.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

You see, the Bible makes it very clear. Saved by grace, through faith, not by works!

You can't be saved by faith and works, or else scripture is false. In which case we all might as well throw in the towel, and just party hearty .....

 

[shad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

You are correct. FAITH (not salvation) is dead without works.

Jesus was not sent to the earth for free pass to sin.

You see, the Bible makes it very clear. Saved by grace, through faith, not by works!

Of course, no one is saying you are saved without Jesus.

You can't be saved by faith and works, or else scripture is false. In which case we all might as well throw in the towel, and just party hearty .....

What you are doing is twisting the Scriptures. You believe what you want to believe.

take care, I am done with you.

.

 

[vja4Him]

Shad -- You don't need to have an attitude! We've been having a rather respectful discussion on this thread, and I'm sure that Cornelius is quite capable of answering for themself.

You misread my post! You are not even in the post that I responded to! So, please be more careful. Here is what I posted, and you are not even in there (are you?). And I only asked the question, then gave a clear comparison. I did not accuse anyone! The question was directed to Cornelius, which is VERY CLEAR from my post. Here is a copy of the post I made in response to Cornelius:

No I have not read the whole thread but I know JW and C's convictions. C is not JW either. Your kind of accustions are just typical, and that's why I dont need to read all of the posts to see your point.

BTW, I dont agree with everything what C teaches either. But I know he is striving to be holy and righteous as Jesus.

Christianity is all about being obedient to Jesus and striving to be like Him.

.

 

[vja4Him]

We must walk a walk, that shows the world , that Jesus indeed took the curse away from our lives.

That is going to take a lot of standing on the promises. It will take trials of faith. It will require us to be bold and verbal about what we believe. It will require us to NOT be like the world. It will require us to NOT go to the world for our help as we are use to doing. We will have to learn to walk in faith regarding everything that God has promised us and that we are now debating if indeed it is so (Healing is a BIG issue today. Most do not know if it is even meant for Christians)

We have lost the real walk of faith. Today we only preach salvation and we leave out the rest, where Jesus paid for our sickness and bondage too.We have become faithless and we call it faith.

I sort of figured if I kept reading that this would be about healing again, C.
Sorry but 'by His stripes we are healed' means we are SPIRITUALLY healed, friend.
There is NO obligation on Gods part to physically heal everyone, nor is there any promise that says He WILL ABSOLUTELY heal every sick person who has faith.
Youre doing what all false teachers do...taking ONE aspect of scripture and drawing it out FAR further than it was intended, then IGNORING other scriptures that dont agree with your views.

We WILL have trials. Paul had a LOT. But Paul taught us that God delivered him out of them all........when he rested in faith, that God is faithful to fulfill His Word.

Really ?
Im thinking about a thorn in Pauls flesh that he asked three times for it to be taken away and apparently it wasnt.

[quote:18jzb0iv]Paul knew God could not lie. God is faithful. So He rested in that fact, when the boat started sinking. God saved them all. Paul knew that Jesus took the curse upon HImself, so when the viper bit him, he just shook it off and ......rested in faith. Nothing happened to Paul. When he was in prison, he rested and sang........God shook the prison and set Paul free.

God did what was in Gods WILL to do.

You seem to be either lacking the knowledge of, or possibly leaving out, how many of the apostles and disciples died, friend.

THEN we can manifest Christ. Faith is accounted as righteousness.

C

Faith is not measured by healing or lack thereof...

.[/quote:18jzb0iv]

I saw that coming too ... I knew there was more to this than simply the theology (wrong) that we cannot be secure with our salvation .... Then with the mention of faith and healing, I knew exactly where this thread was going .... Right into the WoF false teachings ... I've seen it before too many times, not only on various Christian forums, but in my own personal life. The WoF false teachings are very destructive, and have damaged many people, families and churches.

But ... this thread is supposed to be about Salvation. So the whole WoF teaching on healing is for another thread ....

 

[vja4Him]

Faith to Endure Trials of Life ....

Faith is not measured by healing or lack thereof...

.

So true! The real test of faith is when we trust in the Lord to get us through our trials of life, even when we are not healed, or struggling to make ends meet. I've been through many trials of life, and the Lord has been faithful to give me the strength to endure, and He has been there with me no matter what happens ....

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

I meant no disrespect to you or anyone on this thread. But I view salvation as separate from works. That works I do for others is the outpouring of the holy spirit in me. That my salvation comes from the knowledge that Christ has entered me and changed me and no matter what I do I cannot lose him. I know sometimes he carries me instead of me walking beside him but I know he is always there. God's love for us is God's love. You cannot bring him down to human standards or put rules that he is suppose to live by. God is God. Salvation is a gift from God nothing that has to be earned or satisfied with works. When you add conditions you take away from God's love for us. You make him a God that don't love you for who you are but for what you do. That is not my God. He don't love me less for not making a standard. We can never live up to his standard. In a sence we can never be saved by what we do or how we live it is God's grace and mercy through Jesus's death on the cross that saves. Every thing else is for naught. My salvation is assured regardless of what I do. Do I use this as fire insurance no. When someone loves you this much you want to please them, you want to show everyone what God has done for you. But you are also given free will to do wrong. I don't care how selfrightuss you thing you are you could never come close to What God really wants so why try. You can only do the best you can and God already know that. He knows our short commings.

Exactly! What some people are missing is that our good works don't save us or keep us saved, but rather we practice good works because we are saved and because we love God, and want to please Him.

 

[Panin]

[

PS: how do you keep in Christ?

Two ways:
1) By faith
2) By staying the the Word . Meaning, all my actions must be in line with Christ (Word) Then I am found in Him.

Finally. You have clearly stated that your salvation is based on your own actions. You keep touting what is taught in Churches. This is not what the bible teaches. It is not biblical Christianity in the slightest.

You have a works based salvation. I can very well conclude form this statement that you are not saved. You don't even mention the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

You are correct. FAITH (not salvation) is dead without works.

Jesus was not sent to the earth for free pass to sin.

So, are you saying that salvation is not a free gift from God? What about this scripture:

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The Bible says that salvation IS a FREE GIFT from God ... !!! Which contradicts what you just said ....

I will stick with the Bible, not what man says ....

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

What you are doing is twisting the Scriptures. You believe what you want to believe.

take care, I am done with you.

.

I'm not the one who is twisting scriptures ....

I believe what the scriptures say, and the Bible says clearly that salvation is a FREE GIFT from God. How much clearer can God put it .... He gives you the FREE GIFT of salvation.

Galatians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Panin]

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, Peter felt that Christians could return to a sinful life and NOT be saved - he specifically says "worse off than the beginning" and "better for them NOT to know the ways of righteousness".

Regards

Think long and hard on those comments, my friend...

A saved person (one who has escaped the pollutions of the world defines a saved person, correct?) CANNOT be worse off than the beginning, thus, his status with God has changed to "UNSAVED" - worse off than before. A person who returns to the pollutions of the world shows evidence that they are no longer saved.

You stretching and twisting the meaning here. Salvation is not even mentioned.

Knowledge and knowing is not the same as receiving and accepting salvation. I dont need to think long and hard about this at all. And further more the only reason I did not post this scripture along with the others is becuase I knew it would be brought up to allude that it means one can loose their slavation. Well it don't.

DO you know that churches are full of people who receive the message and the instruction and are still not saved. They sit around warming a seat in the church for a while and then leave. This is what that means. In otherwords they have rejected the Holy Spirit's leadings towarsd Christ as saviour.

Your arguemnets are as old as the hills, there is nothing new in what you are saying. And at the end of the day, my friend, you can belive what ever you like. I don't believe what you believe and I dont twist the meanings of scripture either.

 

[vja4Him]

[

PS: how do you keep in Christ?

Two ways:
1) By faith
2) By staying the the Word . Meaning, all my actions must be in line with Christ (Word) Then I am found in Him.

Finally. You have clearly stated that your salvation is based on your own actions. You keep touting what is taught in Churches. This is not what the bible teaches. It is not biblical Christianity in the slightest.

You have a works based salvation. I can very well conclude form this statement that you are not saved. You don't even mention the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is very sad indeed that many will say ....

Matthew chapter 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Build on the Rock

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

Your works, as many as you can muster up, don't count for any part of your salvation! You can even do great works, huge works, even miracles, and in the name of the Lord ... !!! But guess what .... ???

If your salvation is not based only upon Jesus, the Rock, you have a false salvation, and the Lord will say that He NEVER knew you ... !!!

You see who thought they were saved, because they did alll these wonderful things, and they did those things in the name of the Lord, they did not lose their salvation. They were NEVER even saved at all. God even says, "I NEVER knew you."

 

[Panin]

My salvation is secure in Jesus ...

That is so. As long as you keep it IN Christ. No person who slips out of Christ is IN Christ anymore, no matter who they started.

Its how you finish this race.

No overcoming, no salvation.

So, in other words, you DO believe in a works-based salvation ... You MUST do something to get or keep your salvation. So, according to the doctrine of salvation that you espouse, you do have something to do with your salvation, which means that according to your salvation doctrine, Jesus did NOT pay ALL of the price. You have to pay something too ...

That is not Biblical, and is heresy! Jesus DID PAY ALL of the price for our sins. Our salvation can only depend COMPLETELY, 100% on what Jesus already did. I (we, you, everyone) cannot pay for even one tiny piece of my salvation.

No matter how many good works I do, it all is counted as filthy rags. You see, I, you, we, everyone, has NO righteousness, none at all whatsoever. There is none who does good, not you, not me, not anyone, not even the most righteous person who ever lived. Even that nice little old lady, who never (as far as we can see/know) did anyone wrong to anyone, even she is a sinner, damned to spend eternity in hell, even though she may have done more righteous deeds than a hundred people.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

AMEN BROTHER! Preach it. Your right its heresy. Call a spade a spade.