SALVATION

[Cornelius]

We must walk a walk, that shows the world , that Jesus indeed took the curse away from our lives.

That is going to take a lot of standing on the promises. It will take trials of faith. It will require us to be bold and verbal about what we believe. It will require us to NOT be like the world. It will require us to NOT go to the world for our help as we are use to doing. We will have to learn to walk in faith regarding everything that God has promised us and that we are now debating if indeed it is so (Healing is a BIG issue today. Most do not know if it is even meant for Christians)

We have lost the real walk of faith. Today we only preach salvation and we leave out the rest, where Jesus paid for our sickness and bondage too.We have become faithless and we call it faith.

We WILL have trials. Paul had a LOT. But Paul taught us that God delivered him out of them all........when he rested in faith, that God is faithful to fulfill His Word. Paul knew God could not lie. God is faithful. So He rested in that fact, when the boat started sinking. God saved them all. Paul knew that Jesus took the curse upon HImself, so when the viper bit him, he just shook it off and ......rested in faith. Nothing happened to Paul. When he was in prison, he rested and sang........God shook the prison and set Paul free.

Its the same God even if people tell you it is not. Its the SAME GOD people. We too can rest. We too can take comfort in the fact that , just like with Paul and the others, God will come through for us too .......if indeed we REST in His promises. When we say that we believe, we add the "work" of REST. We stop chasing the solutions of the world and we rest in the truth of the Word.

THEN we can manifest Christ. Faith is accounted as righteousness.

C

 

[vja4Him]

Right, but all who this parable speak about are believers or Christians. Some of the rocky ground and sandy ground Christians are also preaching to us today.

We do not get to say which we are. We are all on this road and on this road there are sandy patches and rocky patches. We all have struggled with these. Sometimes the sands wins or the birds (demons) grab the Word from us. But we are BEING born from above. It is an everyday event. The Seed (Word) falls into our hearts (spirit) and in some it bears little or no fruit.

But in those who overcome, it bears thirty, sixty and a hundred fold. Twenty fold of fruit in a believer is strangely left out. Seems like God is saying: Thirty is the least fruit you can bear.Less than that are those who are in sandy and rocky patches with little or no fruit.

C

Dear Cornelius, I have no doubt you are saved and that we are brothers in Christ, I just dont agree that we can ever lose our salvation.

So, when the word talks of 20, 30, 100 fold etc, what do you think this means? Souls saved, spirtual fruit, what exactly?

I would like to add my comments, which agree with you. I too, count Cornelius and others who have a different point of view as brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[vja4Him]

Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

[

PS: how do you keep in Christ?

Two ways:
1) By faith
2) By staying the the Word . Meaning, all my actions must be in line with Christ (Word) Then I am found in Him.

This is a works salvation, which the Bible does NOT teach!

My faith in Christ, and His atoning blood, is what I depend on for my salvation. Not any works that I might accomplish.

 

[vja4Him]

I don't see how you can take the scripture from Genesis and apply it to the Parable of the Sower ....

Dear Cornelius, I have no doubt you are saved and that we are brothers in Christ, I just dont agree that we can ever lose our salvation.

So, when the word talks of 20, 30, 100 fold etc, what do you think this means? Souls saved, spirtual fruit, what exactly?

Brother, if you read the whole chapter about the Seed , then you will understand what it means.Here is a synopsis . Jesus says: The Word (which we know John1:1 says is God ) is sown by the Sower (Jesus) into the hearts of the believer. Genesis tells us that each seed brings forth after its own kind. So this Seed too, will bring forth after its own kind. Which kind? God-kind. That is why those who produce the Fruit of the seed are called 'sons of God" (not just children anymore, but sons. These sons are spoken of by Paul in Romans , the whole creation is waiting for them Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. "Revealing" and "waiteth" shows us that this is still hidden and also that it is still to come )

We all are either on the rocky road and the Word brings no fruit. Or sometimes the enemy steals the truth from our hearts (birds of the air) and sometimes we get so busy with work and the car breaks down and the wife is angry, that we forget the Word and it gets strangled out and it bears little id any fruit.

The believers who allow this Word-seed to fall into their hearts and they who keep the Word-seed in front of them ( "tied to their foreheads between the eyes") they start seeing all things through the Word. Anything then becomes possible for them. Satan brings a situation and they tackle it with the Sword of the Word. The Seed which is Christ, starts growing in them and as they partake of that same Word, He (Christ) grows stronger in them and their flesh-man (self life) starts dying (Romans) They start manifesting Christ, because He becomes the solution for everything in their lives.

Some manifest Him thirty fold, some sixty fold, some a hundred fold. This is shown in type when Jesus takes only three disciples up on the mountain with Him. Peter, James and John. Also Paul speaks of the 30, 60, and 100 fold in another way: he calls it ; star, moon and sun glory.

So the fruit is how much of Christ you show in your life brother.

 

[shad]

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am not JW but you should not accuse anyone of being a cult and being so judgmental just because you dont agree with their practices and theologies.

.

 

[Cornelius]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

[

PS: how do you keep in Christ?

Two ways:
1) By faith
2) By staying the the Word . Meaning, all my actions must be in line with Christ (Word) Then I am found in Him.

This is a works salvation, which the Bible does NOT teach!

My faith in Christ, and His atoning blood, is what I depend on for my salvation. Not any works that I might accomplish.

I am familiar with this doctrine that sounds "works works" when a Christian says they actually walk (heaven forbid ) in the truth of the Bible.

Show me your faith, then I will show you my faith through my works.Faith without works is really very, very dead. If you cannot walk in your salvation in manifestation, then try another religion. One that actually works.

C

 

[vja4Him]

Also Paul speaks of the 30, 60, and 100 fold in another way: he calls it ; star, moon and sun glory.

So the fruit is how much of Christ you show in your life brother.

Please show the scriptures where Paul says the 30, 60, and 100 fold are the star, moon and sun glory ....

 

[shad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

This is a works salvation, which the Bible does NOT teach!

Do you know that the Bible says "faith without deed is dead"?

How cannot say dead faith is saved.

You cannot separate faith from work, friend.

Dont try to make the Gospel complicated than actually is; that is called twisting.

.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Work Out Your Salvation ....

Sorry about the mix-up!

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

I do not believe this scripture is teaching that we can lose our salvation, as some would claim. God simply wants us to take our salvation more seriously, and do something for His kingdom. Get our there and do something, but not because we are afraid that we might lose our salvation, but because we love God, and love others, and want to share the good news of Jesus Christ, who has already paid the penalty for our sins.

We may strive to manifest Christ, but we are still human there is no way our trying to be perfect can get us into heaven, that is why Christ died on the cross.

No, we are not to strive. We are to REST .Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Your quotes are not correct I did not write that .......you did. And then you made my quote yours !

To work out your salvation with fear and trembling is not striving. We must trust in the promises. We must fear that we might not be in faith and see to it, that we are.That makes me tremble, the very thought that I might be relying on myself , when God wants me to rely on His Word.

 

[vja4Him]

Balanced Message from the Bible ...

Today we only preach salvation and we leave out the rest, where Jesus paid for our sickness and bondage too.We have become faithless and we call it faith. C

You need to be careful NOT to broadbrush everyone into the same category! My pastor does not preach ONLY salvation. He preaches much more ....

And when you say we, you are including yourself! So, you too only preach salvation?

There are many good preachers, who preach and teach a well-balanced message from the Bible.

 

[vja4Him]

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am not JW but you should not accuse anyone of being a cult and being so judgmental just because you dont agree with their practices and theologies.

.

You misread my post! You are not even in the post that I responded to! So, please be more careful. Here is what I posted, and you are not even in there (are you?). And I only asked the question, then gave a clear comparison. I did not accuse anyone! The question was directed to Cornelius, which is VERY CLEAR from my post. Here is a copy of the post I made in response to Cornelius:

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am very saddened in my heart to see you write what you did below .... I can see clearly that you have NO assurance of your salvation ... You said yourself that we cannot even know who we are (which ones in the Parable of the Sower).

That is very sad my friend. You (we) can know who we are in Christ. And the Parable of the Sower is talking about those who were NOT saved and those who WERE (ARE) saved. They were NOT all Christians, then some lost their salvation.

Many people hear the gospel. Some even seem to have accepted the gospel, and seem like they are believers. And maybe they really do believe (even the demons believe in Jesus!) but they did NOT lose their salvation. They were NEVER saved in the first place.

The attitude that you portray (your post below) is very similar to what I have seen in the Johovah's Witness cult, and other cults. They cannot know if they are among the saved or not, and so they must continue doing as many good works as they possibly can, and just hope that they might make it to heaven ....

This whole works belief system also leads to strife, because then people are trying to out-do one another. They see someone else doing more good works than they do, so they try even harder ... Knock on more doors, pass out more tracks. witness to more people, dress nicer, better, more expensive clothes, etc.....

Cornelius wrote:Right, but all who this parable speak about are believers or Christians. Some of the rocky ground and sandy ground Christians are also preaching to us today.

We do not get to say which we are. We are all on this road and on this road there are sandy patches and rocky patches. We all have struggled with these. Sometimes the sands wins or the birds (demons) grab the Word from us. But we are BEING born from above. It is an everyday event. The Seed (Word) falls into our hearts (spirit) and in some it bears little or no fruit.

But in those who overcome, it bears thirty, sixty and a hundred fold. Twenty fold of fruit in a believer is strangely left out. Seems like God is saying: Thirty is the least fruit you can bear.Less than that are those who are in sandy and rocky patches with little or no fruit.

C

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

I am familiar with this doctrine that sounds "works works" when a Christian says they actually walk (heaven forbid ) in the truth of the Bible.

Show me your faith, then I will show you my faith through my works.Faith without works is really very, very dead. If you cannot walk in your salvation in manifestation, then try another religion. One that actually works.

C

I understand the scriputre you are referring to, from the book of James, which is NOT teaching that works are necessary for salvation.

James chapter two:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,†but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[shad]

You misread my post! You are not even in the post that I responded to! So, please be more careful. Here is what I posted, and you are not even in there (are you?). And I only asked the question, then gave a clear comparison. I did not accuse anyone! The question was directed to Cornelius, which is VERY CLEAR from my post. Here is a copy of the post I made in response to Cornelius:

No I have not read the whole thread but I know JW and C's convictions. C is not JW either. Your kind of accustions are just typical, and that's why I dont need to read all of the posts to see your point.

BTW, I dont agree with everything what C teaches either. But I know he is striving to be holy and righteous as Jesus.

Christianity is all about being obedient to Jesus and striving to be like Him.

.

 

[glorydaz]

Those glasses doesn't work... Of course God knows how to deliver us from temptations. It doesn't follow that WE will accept that grace and avoid temptations...

Let's continue reading what Peter wrote in this chapter...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, Peter felt that Christians could return to a sinful life and NOT be saved - he specifically says "worse off than the beginning" and "better for them NOT to know the ways of righteousness".

Think long and hard on those comments, my friend...

A saved person (one who has escaped the pollutions of the world defines a saved person, correct?) CANNOT be worse off than the beginning, thus, his status with God has changed to "UNSAVED" - worse off than before. A person who returns to the pollutions of the world shows evidence that they are no longer saved.

Regards

Having knowledge of the Lord does not mean someone is saved.
This portion of scripture is not speaking of the saved, but those who hear the Word only.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Show me your faith, then I will show you my faith through my works.Faith without works is really very, very dead. If you cannot walk in your salvation in manifestation, then try another religion. One that actually works.

C

The 'manifestation' in James there, C, is simply giving to those in need....feeding and clothing those without those things.
I hope you arent INSERTING anything beyond that into the intent ;)

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Were you ever in the Jehovah Witness cult ... ???

I am not JW but you should not accuse anyone of being a cult and being so judgmental just because you dont agree with their practices and theologies.

.

JW's ARE in a "christian" cult.
There is no other way to put it.
Their doctrines are heretical, to say the very least...how else should it be put ?

.

 

[follower of Christ]

We must walk a walk, that shows the world , that Jesus indeed took the curse away from our lives.

That is going to take a lot of standing on the promises. It will take trials of faith. It will require us to be bold and verbal about what we believe. It will require us to NOT be like the world. It will require us to NOT go to the world for our help as we are use to doing. We will have to learn to walk in faith regarding everything that God has promised us and that we are now debating if indeed it is so (Healing is a BIG issue today. Most do not know if it is even meant for Christians)

We have lost the real walk of faith. Today we only preach salvation and we leave out the rest, where Jesus paid for our sickness and bondage too.We have become faithless and we call it faith.

I sort of figured if I kept reading that this would be about healing again, C.
Sorry but 'by His stripes we are healed' means we are SPIRITUALLY healed, friend.
There is NO obligation on Gods part to physically heal everyone, nor is there any promise that says He WILL ABSOLUTELY heal every sick person who has faith.
Youre doing what all false teachers do...taking ONE aspect of scripture and drawing it out FAR further than it was intended, then IGNORING other scriptures that dont agree with your views.

We WILL have trials. Paul had a LOT. But Paul taught us that God delivered him out of them all........when he rested in faith, that God is faithful to fulfill His Word.

Really ?
Im thinking about a thorn in Pauls flesh that he asked three times for it to be taken away and apparently it wasnt.

Paul knew God could not lie. God is faithful. So He rested in that fact, when the boat started sinking. God saved them all. Paul knew that Jesus took the curse upon HImself, so when the viper bit him, he just shook it off and ......rested in faith. Nothing happened to Paul. When he was in prison, he rested and sang........God shook the prison and set Paul free.

God did what was in Gods WILL to do.

You seem to be either lacking the knowledge of, or possibly leaving out, how many of the apostles and disciples died, friend.

THEN we can manifest Christ. Faith is accounted as righteousness.

C

Faith is not measured by healing or lack thereof...

.

 

[francisdesales]

Let's continue reading what Peter wrote in this chapter...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Apparently, Peter felt that Christians could return to a sinful life and NOT be saved - he specifically says "worse off than the beginning" and "better for them NOT to know the ways of righteousness".

Think long and hard on those comments, my friend...

A saved person (one who has escaped the pollutions of the world defines a saved person, correct?) CANNOT be worse off than the beginning, thus, his status with God has changed to "UNSAVED" - worse off than before. A person who returns to the pollutions of the world shows evidence that they are no longer saved.

Having knowledge of the Lord does not mean someone is saved.
This portion of scripture is not speaking of the saved, but those who hear the Word only.

Wrong, my friend. You need to read the entire set of verses more closely...

They escaped the pollutions of the world. How do you suggest one escape such unless one is saved? That is the definition of being saved, to escape sin - the pollutions of the world...

Further, it says they knew the ways of righteousness - and followed them. Again, being saved...

And finally, they turned from the holy commandments - implying they were following them at one point. Again, saved...

Saved, saved, saved. This person was saved from the pollutions of the world, sin. Knew of the ways of righteousness and practiced them, followed the commandments. And then stopped following them. Quite in line with Paul's notion that practicing certain actions (like adultery, fornication and theft) would DENY someone from entering the Kingdom, said to those who were PROMISED the Kingdom by virtue of their Baptism into the Spirit.

Being saved is one's status in life today. If one is living in sin, their status is not "saved", since their fruits prove otherwise. That's like saying an alcholic on the wagon is still OK drinking a beer because he attended AA meetings and was "saved" 20 years ago. He is not saved anymore, since he fell back into slavery. Denying a person is in slavery just because of some faith declaration of the past is nonsense...

This person described by Peter was once saved and then lost. One can only hope that such a person re-connects with Christ and begs for forgiveness so that they can once again turn to the commandments and live a life of righteousness, escaping the pollutions of the world...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Show me your faith, then I will show you my faith through my works.Faith without works is really very, very dead. If you cannot walk in your salvation in manifestation, then try another religion. One that actually works.

C

The 'manifestation' in James there, C, is simply giving to those in need....feeding and clothing those without those things.
I hope you arent INSERTING anything beyond that into the intent ;)

What is the intent of James, in your opinion? TRUE religion IS about such things, according to this author (James)... Without the manifestation, there is no "saving" faith, just a "dead" faith.

James says nothing about faith declarations made 20 years ago as being salvific, quite the opposite, my brother.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

I know you are meaning well, because I can see that in your spirit. But please tell me what your understanding is about this verse:

Cr 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

I see a transformed man...one born again of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will shine through and His fruit will be manifest in us...first and most important...love.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

However, we still abide in the flesh and are subject to the law of sin Paul speaks of in Rom. 7, so we can not yet be transformed into the express image of the Lord. We can see Him clearly, and we can press on to the high mark, but until we're face to face with Him in glory, we will not attain perfection, but His righteousness has been imputed to us. His blood covers our sin.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.