SALVATION

[vja4Him]

Works Based Salvation ...

I've been in churches and have had many friends that teach and practice the works-based salvation. They have no peace, no true peace for Jesus. As one poster here has already stated clearly, they cannot even know which of the people they are in the Parable of Sower. They can't even know if they are saved .... !!!!

That is very sad, and that is exactly how people in cults live. They cannot know for certain if they are saved, and on their way to heave. In Islam, their false god Allah, can even change his mind and decide to not let them in to paradise.

But those who are truely in Christ, they can know they are saved ... !!! They can have assurance that they are saved, and will be with Jesus for eternity ... !!! This is true peace, peace that passes all understanding.

 

[Panin]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

This is a works salvation, which the Bible does NOT teach!

Do you know that the Bible says "faith without deed is dead"?

How cannot say dead faith is saved.

You cannot separate faith from work, friend.

Dont try to make the Gospel complicated than actually is; that is called twisting.

.

Our works are the evidence of our salvation it is not what saves us. Nor is to be confused that one who is full of works and good deeds is saved either. The bible says even sinners do good to each other. And they are not saved.

 

[Panin]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

I've been in churches and have had many friends that teach and practice the works-based salvation. They have no peace, no true peace for Jesus. As one poster here has already stated clearly, they cannot even know which of the people they are in the Parable of Sower. They can't even know if they are saved .... !!!!

That is very sad, and that is exactly how people in cults live. They cannot know for certain if they are saved, and on their way to heave. In Islam, their false god Allah, can even change his mind and decide to not let them in to paradise.

But those who are truely in Christ, they can know they are saved ... !!! They can have assurance that they are saved, and will be with Jesus for eternity ... !!! This is true peace, peace that passes all understanding.

You have hit the nail on the head. It's very sad seeing what our so called saved/notsaved brothers in Christ going on about in this thread. It's no wonder people don't want to know about Christianity when this is what they are getting taught. These people are stumbling block to slavation.

I'm out of this thread, it's a waste of time. But at least we see peoples colours.

All else owes its beauty to it's colouring. Truth alone loses its beauty when it is coloured. Ivan Panin.

 

[shad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is only saying that without Jesus no one will be saved no matter how hard you try for yourself, that does not mean His followers are free to sin. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Christianity is all about accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. It seems that you just want to accept Him as Savior, but not as your Lord.

.

 

[shad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Our works are the evidence of our salvation it is not what saves us. Nor is to be confused that one who is full of works and good deeds is saved either. The bible says even sinners do good to each other. And they are not saved.

You are absolutely right. No one is denying that. But you seem to be saying that we can be saved without works too. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandment."

Jesus' messages has been watered down big time, please dont contribute to this disgraceful and thankless trend. It is getting worse and worse.

Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Not JUST Savior, my friend.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know why it always comes down to saying others aren't saved.
We have more rules than our Lord does.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

And what's the most important thing for a Christian to have? Love.

Does it matter to the Lord whether we think we need a water baptism or not?
Does it matter whether we think we have to be a certain way before we're saved?
Does it matter if we believe in healing or we don't?
How about whether we confess our sins daily, or whether we worship on Sat. or Sun?

The Lord looks at our heart....He alone knows what's in a man's heart and no one else.
We can know sound doctrine, but if we don't have love it's worthless.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

What we should be doing is putting forth the Word, and trusting it will not return void....

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is only saying that without Jesus no one will be saved no matter how hard you try for yourself, that does not mean His followers are free to sin. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Christianity is all about accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. It seems that you just want to accept Him as Savior, but not as your Lord.

.

There isn't one person that has said we're free to sin. We all know we shouldn't sin.
And no one is saying Jesus is only our savior but not our Lord.

Try and read what people say rather than what you think they're saying.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is only saying that without Jesus no one will be saved no matter how hard you try for yourself, that does not mean His followers are free to sin. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Christianity is all about accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. It seems that you just want to accept Him as Savior, but not as your Lord.

.

This should be a topic for another thread ... but just to clarify matters ...

1) Are you saying that Christians (those who are truely saved) cannot sin?

2) Or that if you are a Christian, saved, and then you sin, then you lose your salvation?

3) Can you get your salvation back again?

4) How many times can you lose your salvation, then get saved again ... ???

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is only saying that without Jesus no one will be saved no matter how hard you try for yourself, that does not mean His followers are free to sin. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Christianity is all about accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. It seems that you just want to accept Him as Savior, but not as your Lord.

.

You are reading something into the scriptures that is not there ....

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace, NOT works! Read the scriptures for yourselves (everyone!). I did not make that up. It's there in the Bible. Here are several different versions:

Ephesians 2:8-9, "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

Ephesians 2:8-9, " 8For (A)by grace you have been saved (B)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (C)the gift of God;

9(D)not as a result of works, so that (E)no one may boast." (NASB)

Ephesians 2:8-9, " 8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]" (Amplified Bible)

Ephesians 2:8-9, "8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." (NLT)

Ephesians 2:8-9, "8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast." (KJV)

Ephesians 2:8-9, "8For(A) by grace you have been saved(B) through faith. And this is(C) not your own doing;(D) it is the gift of God, 9(E) not a result of works,(F) so that no one may boast." (ESV)

Ephesians 2:8-9, "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (NKJ)

Ephesians 2:8-9, " 8 For by grace ye be saved by faith, and this not of you [and that not of you]; for it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, that no man have glory." (Wycliffe Bible)

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is only saying that without Jesus no one will be saved no matter how hard you try for yourself, that does not mean His followers are free to sin. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Christianity is all about accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. It seems that you just want to accept Him as Savior, but not as your Lord.

.

How can you judge me and say that I have not accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord ... !!! That is beyond me ... I thought that only God knows my heart. And you certainly do not know me ...

So, would you please give some kind of evidence that supports your claim that I do not accept Jesus as my Lord .... but only my Savior ...

 

[vja4Him]

I don't know why it always comes down to saying others aren't saved.
We have more rules than our Lord does.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

And what's the most important thing for a Christian to have? Love.

Does it matter to the Lord whether we think we need a water baptism or not?
Does it matter whether we think we have to be a certain way before we're saved?
Does it matter if we believe in healing or we don't?
How about whether we confess our sins daily, or whether we worship on Sat. or Sun?

The Lord looks at our heart....He alone knows what's in a man's heart and no one else.
We can know sound doctrine, but if we don't have love it's worthless.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

What we should be doing is putting forth the Word, and trusting it will not return void....

Right on ... !!! And that is exactly what I've been praying for ever since I was saved. When I first becaome a Christian I thought all Christians were in harmony .... Man, was I ever in for a real shocker ... !!!

I had only heard about Catholics, Methodists, Baptist, and Mormons. I knews nothing about any of them, but I knew that Mormons were not Christians. As I began meeting Christians from other churches when doing outreaches, I quickly realized that something was wrong, terribly wrong, withing Christianity ....

It is very grevious to see so many Christians bickering, splitting, causing divisions, being a bad example, and only leading the unbelievers into more confusion ....

I agree, that most of the differences we have, should not cause so much trouble. Unfortunately, there is really nothing we can do to stop it though, but just keep proclaiming the word of God.

Isaiah 55:10-11

10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[shad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

This should be a topic for another thread ... but just to clarify matters ...
1) Are you saying that Christians (those who are truely saved) cannot sin?

No, what I am saying is that we should strive not to sin. And when we sin we should repent.

2) Or that if you are a Christian, saved, and then you sin, then you lose your salvation?

If we dont repent we will lose.

3) Can you get your salvation back again?

If we truly accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we will repent when we sin.

4) How many times can you lose your salvation, then get saved again ... ???

The same as the above.

 

[Panin]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is only saying that without Jesus no one will be saved no matter how hard you try for yourself, that does not mean His followers are free to sin. Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Christianity is all about accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. It seems that you just want to accept Him as Savior, but not as your Lord.

.

DEar Shad, the implication that the doctrine of eternal security means that sin is okay, is just that, an implication. We dont believe that either. SIN is never okay.

 

[Panin]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

This should be a topic for another thread ... but just to clarify matters ...
1) Are you saying that Christians (those who are truely saved) cannot sin?

No, what I am saying is that we should strive not to sin. And when we sin we should repent.

2) Or that if you are a Christian, saved, and then you sin, then you lose your salvation?

If we dont repent we will lose.

[quote:15kvi1ds]3) Can you get your salvation back again?

If we truly accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we will repent when we sin.

4) How many times can you lose your salvation, then get saved again ... ???

The same as the above.[/quote:15kvi1ds]

I agree. But not that if we dont repent we loose bit, once a christian has repented his sins are covered, past presents and future.

 

[glorydaz]

Under the law, man's sin abounded.

1And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. 2Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. 3Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty. 4Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these. 5And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: 6And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

A trespass offering was made by the priest.

17And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. 18And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him. 19It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

Under grace...grace much more abounds.

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We have a high priest who offered up once, for all time, a sacrifice for sin...the sins of the whole world. We are justified by our faith and it is accounted to us as righteousness.
We have a sure and steadfast anchor, and a strong consolation...we no longer run daily to the priest offering up sacrifices for our sin. It was finished at the cross.

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[glorydaz]

When I first becaome a Christian I thought all Christians were in harmony .... Man, was I ever in for a real shocker ... !!!

I had only heard about Catholics, Methodists, Baptist, and Mormons. I knews nothing about any of them, but I knew that Mormons were not Christians. As I began meeting Christians from other churches when doing outreaches, I quickly realized that something was wrong, terribly wrong, withing Christianity ....

It is very grevious to see so many Christians bickering, splitting, causing divisions, being a bad example, and only leading the unbelievers into more confusion ....

I agree, that most of the differences we have, should not cause so much trouble. Unfortunately, there is really nothing we can do to stop it though, but just keep proclaiming the word of God.

Isaiah 55:10-11

10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

:amen

 

[Cornelius]

I do not know where to start, so I will not quote anybody, because you are all basically saying the same thing

The "no works" teaching that has infiltrated the church has far reaching results among Christians today. I use to be a Baptist, so I met the Lord and was taught by them. So I know all about it and how difficult it is afterward to see something different, even if the Word spells it out.

The "no works" people shun ALL works and see them as just a simple result of salvation. Like being nice, loving, and giving. Yep, those are all fruit of salvation, that must indeed follow your salvation if indeed you are following the Lord. These things must show, indeed they WILL show in the life of a true believer.It goes without question that a person who has Christ's life now in them will walk in love , forgiveness, kindness, giving to the needy etc.

But the disciples were not asking about these "works" when they asked this question:Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In the answer that Jesus gave them it seems He is saying "just believe in Me" but when we look at the whole revelation of the Bible we see that God sent us His WORD in and through Jesus.In other words, we must not only believe in the physical Jesus (that is important too) but we must also believe what He said we must DO.

The word KEEP is something that we DO.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

and about loving Him He said:Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. but here Jesus's words are even stronger, telling us that our love for Him is shown ONLY by keeping His commandments (I am NOT talking here of the Old Testament laws, I will tell you soon what "commandments" He gave us, that we tend to overlook these days )Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Cornelius]

The WORDS we have to keep, we find in the teachings of Jesus AND in the teaching of the apostles, because they were all given by God Himself through the Holy Spirit. Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Let me get to the point.

Here are some words that we have to KEEP if we love Him. These are the "works of God" (NOT the useless works of man that bring NO salvation ! )

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This one verse sums it up. Do you abide in Christ? then walk as He walked.

OK, now the shouting can begin to say why this verse is not possible. And all the shouting will be , because those who do not believe its possible are looking towards themselves (works) to fulfill this verse. Whereas the truth is, that we all need to "believe in the one that God sent" to do this in and through us.

The "no works" gospel is a gospel that looks to SELF all the time and they do not understand what this verse means:Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. If they indeed understood it, they would realize that the simple truth in this verse , shows that we are indeed dead and crucified and that Christ now lives in us.

So if this verse is true(and it is ! ) then Who is it that is indeed doing the works in your body? You or Christ? If you say "its me", then you still need to get to the truth. If you say "Its Christ" ,then why would you worry about works being done through you?

So if Christ lives in you, you should be able to do the works of Christ.

And if you think this is impossible, then maybe the gospel preached to you is not the same gospel that teaches us to walk as He walk. Maybe you are believing the other gospel? Its possible for all of us to have been mislead and not even know it.

 

[Cornelius]

The Works of God:




1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

. Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The "works of God" we do allow us to walk through anything and everything. The "works of God" needs our weakness so that God can be strong through us. The "works of God" in us and through us, brings victory in the Christian's life. Paul received this revelation, because God sent him a messenger of satan (a demon) to buffet his flesh so that he would stay humble before God. Paul needed (as we do) to learn that we always have to rely on God and not ourselves, no matter what :


2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

 

[glorydaz]

I do not know where to start, so I will not quote anybody, because you are all basically saying the same thing

The "no works" teaching that has infiltrated the church has far reaching results among Christians today. I use to be a Baptist, so I met the Lord and was taught by them. So I know all about it and how difficult it is afterward to see something different, even if the Word spells it out.

The "no works" people shun ALL works and see them as just a simple result of salvation. Like being nice, loving, and giving. Yep, those are all fruit of salvation, that must indeed follow your salvation if indeed you are following the Lord. These things must show, indeed they WILL show in the life of a true believer.It goes without question that a person who has Christ's life now in them will walk in love , forgiveness, kindness, giving to the needy etc.

But the disciples were not asking about these "works" when they asked this question:Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In the answer that Jesus gave them it seems He is saying "just believe in Me" but when we look at the whole revelation of the Bible we see that God sent us His WORD in and through Jesus.In other words, we must not only believe in the physical Jesus (that is important too) but we must also believe what He said we must DO.

The word KEEP is something that we DO.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

and about loving Him He said:Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. but here Jesus's words are even stronger, telling us that our love for Him is shown ONLY by keeping His commandments (I am NOT talking here of the Old Testament laws, I will tell you soon what "commandments" He gave us, that we tend to overlook these days )Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And you don't think we know this? Anyone that is born again, is led by the Spirit of God. We're not dragged kicking and screaming, we obey daily.... hourly, and surrender our will so He can do His work through us. When we go before the Lord leads, we do so in the flesh. We obey where He leads not where we think we should go. It's not the fruit of salvation...it's the fruit of the Spirit. He must do His work through us, because if we do it ourselves, it will be the work of man rather than the work of God.