SALVATION

[Cornelius]

And you don't think we know this?

So you agree 1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If you do, then obviously we are on the same page.

 

[glorydaz]

The WORDS we have to keep, we find in the teachings of Jesus AND in the teaching of the apostles, because they were all given by God Himself through the Holy Spirit. Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Let me get to the point.

Here are some words that we have to KEEP if we love Him. These are the "works of God" (NOT the useless works of man that bring NO salvation ! )

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This one verse sums it up. Do you abide in Christ? then walk as He walked.

OK, now the shouting can begin to say why this verse is not possible. And all the shouting will be , because those who do not believe its possible are looking towards themselves (works) to fulfill this verse. Whereas the truth is, that we all need to "believe in the one that God sent" to do this in and through us.

I doubt you'll hear any shouting....it's exactly what we've been saying, except you call it work and we call it fruit. If we do anything outside the will of God, it's our flesh doing it...not the Holy Spirit.

Not having our own righteousness, but His.
Not as though we'd already attained, but pressing on to the mark...the high calling of God.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[glorydaz]

And you don't think we know this?

So you agree 1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If you do, then obviously we are on the same page.

Yes, we're to have the mind of Christ.
Does that mean we've attained?
No, but we press on to the mark.
Not in the flesh but in the spirit.

Man is so apt to be proud of his own righteousness, given even half a chance.
If man devises ways to be righteous, he goes before the Lord. That isn't obedience to God.
If a man seeks to know the mind of Christ and allows the Holy Spirit to direct him, then the fruit (works) of the Spirit will come to fruition. All this trouble over a definition of terms.

Now what about the loss of salvation?
I'll go you toe to toe on that one. :yes

 

[Cornelius]

Brother I have been on forums for many years and I do know that I am not in agreement with the OSAS teaching.They read into Scripture a doctrine that is not supported by the Bible at all.

You might believe it, but look around you and see how many people think there is anything more brought to us through the works on the cross. Most are happy with not going to hell. Then they believe it is a done deal too ! Most Christian have no idea what this scripture tells us. :2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Most will tell you how silly you are when you go after the promises. Have you as of late, tried telling a Christian that they can have faith in God to heal them. Have you seen the reaction to this ? You do realize that this is part of our inheritance and that indeed it is a sure deal? IF we have faith? IF we are not double minded?


Have you noticed that ALL Christians get offended if anybody even suggest that a lack of faith might be the real answer and not "Its not the will of God" ? Why is God the guilty one and not our lack of faith? Surely Jesus pointed that out to us. Yet we claim a salvation , but at the same time we deny what that salvation brought to us. We water it down to "fire-insurance" and are so very happy with that.

I left the church because it has no real power in their gospel. The preachers do not even have faith in what is written, they teach around it. We see small little fires of hope break out sometimes and then it dies again. I was part of such a revival in the 80s where God really moved and healed and set free. Miracles happened and then they boxed it, labeled it and God left the building. Today they are rich and powerless, back to preaching a "If it is God's will" gospel and they have lost the knowledge of the real gospel of power.

 

[Cornelius]

All this trouble over a definition of terms.

s

You do realize that God is hiding the truth in plain site regarding this matter ? He has a reason for it. This is why this definition has caused the splitting of the Body of Christ into schisms .

People are staring at the fact that our works cannot bring us salvation, (true) and then they sit down and say" OK, then there is nothing further to do" (wrong)

To walk this salvation , means we start out believing that we actually CAN walk like Jesus. We believe that indeed nothing is impossible (Because Jesus said so) We indeed already have the mind of Christ (OK, first by faith, and THEN by manifestation !) But most are happy to just stay in the hope that we might or might not "get there in this life" Wrong attitude ! Its meant for us NOW.

I am not going to argue OSAS with you. I am rather going to discuss the real Gospel. That = salvation

 

[glorydaz]

All this trouble over a definition of terms.

s

You do realize that God is hiding the truth in plain site regarding this matter ? He has a reason for it. This is why this definition has caused the splitting of the Body of Christ into schisms .

People are staring at the fact that our works cannot bring us salvation, (true) and then they sit down and say" OK, then there is nothing further to do" (wrong)

To walk this salvation , means we start out believing that we actually CAN walk like Jesus. We believe that indeed nothing is impossible (Because Jesus said so) We indeed already have the mind of Christ (OK, first by faith, and THEN by manifestation !) But most are happy to just stay in the hope that we might or might not "get there in this life" Wrong attitude ! Its meant for us NOW.

I am not going to argue OSAS with you. I am rather going to discuss the real Gospel. That = salvation

People make all kinds of excuses not to be obedient. The gate is a narrow one, it always has been.

Those who are truly born again, will be led by the Spirit. If they get lazy, the Lord is faithful to chastise them until they press on again. It's an irresistable calling for the true child of God.

He is faithful to keep us, and will lose none of His own. There are more than I care to think of that will hear the words, "I know you not." If the Lord says that, you can be sure He never knew them to begin with. God is far above disowning His own children.

 

[Cornelius]

We always hear the bumper-sticker gospel !

I am just a sinner saved by grace.

Well, Paul always wrote to the saints, not the sinners.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (to be is not in the original)

So the sinner thing is not in agreement with how the Lord wants us to look at ourselves.We have to see ourselves like He sees us. Saints !. He sees us through the eyes of faith too. He sees our END and He is so sure about it, that He ALREADY calls us saints. Jesus came to take sin away...........not to just forgive it.Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God says it. We must believe it without adding our usual "Yes but.............."

Start agreeing with God and not a bumper-sticker !

 

[Cornelius]

"I know you not." If the Lord says that, you can be sure He never knew them to begin with. God is far above disowning His own children.

The word "knew" is the same as a man and a woman coming together. It is a close relationship. This is not just talking about "Hi, I never met you " but it speaks of Christians who never entered into a true knowledge of the Word , by mixing it with faith.

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
1. to understand
2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. (what happens to you if you come short of it? )
Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;


Believed what ? No, not just the gospel message about Jesus on the cross. It goes further than that. We have to believe all of it and mix all of it with faith: THEN the gospel has power .

 

[Panin]

I do not know where to start, so I will not quote anybody, because you are all basically saying the same thing

The "no works" teaching that has infiltrated the church has far reaching results among Christians today. I use to be a Baptist, so I met the Lord and was taught by them. So I know all about it and how difficult it is afterward to see something different, even if the Word spells it out.

The "no works" people shun ALL works and see them as just a simple result of salvation. Like being nice, loving, and giving. Yep, those are all fruit of salvation, that must indeed follow your salvation if indeed you are following the Lord. These things must show, indeed they WILL show in the life of a true believer.It goes without question that a person who has Christ's life now in them will walk in love , forgiveness, kindness, giving to the needy etc.

But the disciples were not asking about these "works" when they asked this question:Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In the answer that Jesus gave them it seems He is saying "just believe in Me" but when we look at the whole revelation of the Bible we see that God sent us His WORD in and through Jesus.In other words, we must not only believe in the physical Jesus (that is important too) but we must also believe what He said we must DO.

The word KEEP is something that we DO.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

and about loving Him He said:Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. but here Jesus's words are even stronger, telling us that our love for Him is shown ONLY by keeping His commandments (I am NOT talking here of the Old Testament laws, I will tell you soon what "commandments" He gave us, that we tend to overlook these days )Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Ive never heard of NO WORKS teaching.

 

[francisdesales]

You stretching and twisting the meaning here. Salvation is not even mentioned.

No, I am not stretching anything. I am putting 2 and 2 together. If you are interested in what the Bible actually says, then give me a minute of your time and reflect on these comments...

First, let me define "salvation".

Being saved is that point where we begin a new walk in the Spirit - and CONTINUE in that walk. It also refers to a CURRENT condition. We repent of our sins and are forgiven. We take on the divine nature, as Peter says earlier. We are able to love and forgive others because we are MADE "God-like" (called "theosis" or "divinization" by the Church Fathers of ancient Christianity). All as a result of the Spirit working in me, I personally am able to love and forgive. Turning from sin and walking in Christ is being saved, and this is EXACTLY what 2 Peter tells us about the "wicked preachers" or anyone who followed them WERE.

The people of 2 Peter had escaped the pollutions of sin. How else can we do that, my friend? Can we work our way without the Spirit to escape sin?

They obeyed the commandments of God. Do you suggest that Peter thought there was ANOTHER principle that guided men to obey God's commandments???

Follow the ways of righteousness. You suggest that we can do that, as well, without being saved???

No, the word "salvation" is not used... No matter, we know what being saved is and Peter describes the conditions of salvation where we are forgiven of sins and begin to walk in the Lord...
Unless you suggest there is ANOTHER way that we can obey God WITHOUT being saved...

These "wicked" men were ONCE saved - that is beyond doubt.

So clearly, we CAN lose THAT salvation - since a person NOT walking in the Lord, NOT obeying the commandments, NOT following the ways of righteousness, RETURNING to a life of sin (RETURN means they - at one time - were NOT in sin - are no longer saved. Again, ANY OTHER way we can avoid sin, my friend???

Is this condition of "being saved" guaranteed? No, Peter describes some who are NO LONGER saved - since they have fallen into a condition WORSE than before...

Now, HOW can a saved person be in a condition that is WORSE THAN BEFORE being saved - and STILL be saved??? It is not possible. A person's walk TODAY describes whether they are saved, not something said 20 years ago. That idea is a false gospel.

Thus, once you understand what Peter is saying here, that some people were once saved, freed from sin, walk in the Spirit - CAN TURN BACK to a pre-saved condition, one worse than before - you will see that you are incorrectly understanding the Scriptures taught by the Church.

Knowledge and knowing is not the same as receiving and accepting salvation. I dont need to think long and hard about this at all. And further more the only reason I did not post this scripture along with the others is becuase I knew it would be brought up to allude that it means one can loose their slavation. Well it don't.

No, knowledge alone is not enough - IF we define "knowledge" as "information", which is anachronistic. We are speaking of Sacred Scripture, not the 21st century...

That is not what "knowledge" means here, or in most portions of Scriptures that deal with the act of faith and the resulting fruit. It is clear that this knowledge (and "knowledge" here refers to what precedes Baptism - since "being enlightened" refers to a knowledge gained by an experiential meeting between Christ and the individual within the community). "Knowing something" refers to something much more sublime than our idea of book knowledge. It is knowing through experiencing someone in a relationship, as a man and wife "knowing" each other. Would you agree that "knowing" one's wife in Scriptures means something MORE than just knowing THINGS about her??? No, "knowing" in Scriptures is something much deeper than that.

And what does THIS "knowing" in 2 Peter lead to? Escaping sin, following the commandments, being righteous. This "knowing", a meeting of Jesus Christ, is what begins our being saved.

Again, they escaped sin. Please explain HOW we can escape sin and NOT be saved, please....

Your arguemnets are as old as the hills, there is nothing new in what you are saying.

AH, so innovation and re-invention is the sign of correct doctrine and beliefs???

If we invent something new, it must be correct, while Christians of the past 2000 years were crazy for believing something taught by the Apostles long ago???

I challenge you to find me something from the first 1000 years of Christianity that clearly points out that no one can lose their salvation, no matter what they do. An argument "older than the hills" has meaning because it has been tested and found correct by Christians of many different ages. IF it was ridiculous, it would have been dismissed long ago.

However, to appease busy American Christians who don't have time to pray and worship the Lord, busy with their "real life", the doctrine of OSAS appeals, since they can do their one-time faith declaration and "get on with their life". Clearly, such teachings avoid the clarion call to repent and CHANGE, turning aside from a life of sin and slavery. It is a "feel-good" teaching that gives false security to busy people who don't have that much time for ACTUALLY repenting and changing their lives and KEEPING them that way.

Returning to a life of sin is NOT a sign of being saved, since saved = saved from a life of sin, not a bus pass to heaven.

And at the end of the day, my friend, you can belive what ever you like. I don't believe what you believe and I dont twist the meanings of scripture either.

I know you don't believe what I do - which is why I am trying to point out your error. I am not saying you are twisting 2 Peter, but you ARE avoiding the meaning of it to protect your false doctrine. Answer me the questions in red, and tell me how ELSE they did these things, WITHOUT being saved???

These people were saved, with or without the use of the actual word, my brother.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

I've been in churches and have had many friends that teach and practice the works-based salvation. They have no peace, no true peace for Jesus. As one poster here has already stated clearly, they cannot even know which of the people they are in the Parable of Sower. They can't even know if they are saved .... !!!!

That is very sad, and that is exactly how people in cults live. They cannot know for certain if they are saved, and on their way to heave. In Islam, their false god Allah, can even change his mind and decide to not let them in to paradise.

But those who are truely in Christ, they can know they are saved ... !!! They can have assurance that they are saved, and will be with Jesus for eternity ... !!! This is true peace, peace that passes all understanding.

A person "knows" they are saved TODAY by their faith in Christ and how they walk in the Spirit, not depending upon some declaration made in 2000. We "know" we are saved AS we walk in Christ. That is what the Bible means by knowing we are saved, in the Spirit. Our CURRENT actions and walk, my brother.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

"I know you not." If the Lord says that, you can be sure He never knew them to begin with. God is far above disowning His own children.

The word "knew" is the same as a man and a woman coming together. It is a close relationship. This is not just talking about "Hi, I never met you " but it speaks of Christians who never entered into a true knowledge of the Word , by mixing it with faith.

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
1. to understand
2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. (what happens to you if you come short of it? )
Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;


Believed what ? No, not just the gospel message about Jesus on the cross. It goes further than that. We have to believe all of it and mix all of it with faith: THEN the gospel has power .

Since I comment on your posts that I disagree with, I must also comment that your posts on this topic are spot-on and very good. You recognize the correct Gospel of the Scriptures here.

Regards

 

[shad]

Re: Faith in Christ, and His Atoning Blood ...

I agree. But not that if we dont repent we loose bit, once a christian has repented his sins are covered, past presents and future.

When we sin and continually live in it, you will lose your salvation.

.

 

[glorydaz]

"I know you not." If the Lord says that, you can be sure He never knew them to begin with. God is far above disowning His own children.

The word "knew" is the same as a man and a woman coming together. It is a close relationship. This is not just talking about "Hi, I never met you " but it speaks of Christians who never entered into a true knowledge of the Word , by mixing it with faith.

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
1. to understand
2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. (what happens to you if you come short of it? )
Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;


Believed what ? No, not just the gospel message about Jesus on the cross. It goes further than that. We have to believe all of it and mix all of it with faith: THEN the gospel has power .

Why do I get the feeling you believe other Christians don't have your level of belief? My faith is not a "bumper sticker" faith. When Jesus says, "I know you not", He was saying they were not His.
Those are people who have never had their heart circumcised - not born again.

Those who have entered into eternal life and are seated with Christ in the heavenlies - are known of God. They do have the mind of Christ. You keep speaking of professing Christians as if that makes them a Christian. It doesn't. Not all who say they are the Lord's are saved. Hearing the message comes first, then can come true repentance, which is a turning away from the old and walking in newness of life. That, my friend, is the gospel message. When a person turns away from the old but never walks in newness of life, they are not saved. They must be raised with Christ, as well, otherwise they aren't born again a new creation. They continue to walk in their own strength...not being filled with Holy Spirit. The cross just opens the door...reconciling man with God. Partaking in the resurrection life is salvation. Once resurrected into eternal life, one is imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Once we're seated with Christ in the heavenlies, we will never be cast out...we have entered into that rest.

 

[Cornelius]

"I know you not." If the Lord says that, you can be sure He never knew them to begin with. God is far above disowning His own children.

The word "knew" is the same as a man and a woman coming together. It is a close relationship. This is not just talking about "Hi, I never met you " but it speaks of Christians who never entered into a true knowledge of the Word , by mixing it with faith.

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
1. to understand
2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. (what happens to you if you come short of it? )
Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;


Believed what ? No, not just the gospel message about Jesus on the cross. It goes further than that. We have to believe all of it and mix all of it with faith: THEN the gospel has power .

Since I comment on your posts that I disagree with, I must also comment that your posts on this topic are spot-on and very good. You recognize the correct Gospel of the Scriptures here.

Regards

I was about to post the same remark about your posts

 

[Cornelius]

Why do I get the feeling you believe other Christians don't have your level of belief? My faith is not a "bumper sticker" faith. [/u]

Where did I call your faith a bumper sticker faith? Why are you identifying with that part in my post ?

I totally agree with you about salvation, being the live of the resurrected Christ IN us. We differ on some points , but agree on most.

My purpose here is definitely NOT to speak down on any real Christian's faith. Jesus also said, He did not come to call the righteous. But here is the difference. Since I do NOT believe in once saved always saved, I am still going after the "tares" I believe that some of them, even though they have made a commitment, might just realize that their faith alone in this matter is not going to bring them through. Some tares might read this and THINK. I pray that the Lord will open hearts and save souls , even here on a forum.

I use to walk in a delusion as a Christian myself. Somebody , through their knowledge of the Word, was the instrument in God opening my eyes. Now I want to be able to do the same.

I have nothing against anybody personally on this forum. Would love to know you all in real life, but that is impossible.

 

[francisdesales]

I was about to post the same remark about your posts

I enjoy our "bouts of agreement" much more ;)

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Peter 2:2 is not referring to the saved.

This contested portion of the scripture seems to be the proof text for those who think otherwise, but there is nothing there to show any of them had ever walked in newness of life.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So how did these "wolves in sheeps clothing" escape the pollutions of the world?

They heard the word of the Gospel, and entered the church, but returned to their old habits before they ever repented and received salvation. You'll see them around you - sitting beside you in the pews, having the appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof. They deny the Lordship of Christ in their lives, they preach and teach false doctrine, they are lovers of themselves rather than God. They have never been saved, they just walk among us.

Jesus set the captives free by His death on the cross.
These captives heard the Gospel but did not repent of their evil ways, but returned as a dog to it's vomit. They turned from the holy commandment to "repent". In other words, they heard the gospel, but did not repent so were never saved. Jesus reconciled sinful man to God by His death on the cross.
He opened the prison doors and set the captives free.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Not all those freed captives will enter into the kingdom of God.
They will be tares growing among us...having the appearance of wheat for a time, perhaps, but having no part in the kingdom. They are not partakers of the resurrection into eternal life. Not all respond to the gospel that has set them free. They have access to God, but do not enter in.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

The ransom has been paid, but not all will turn from their old ways and follow after the Lord.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

These are the tares growing up amongst the wheat.
They have never walked in newness of life nor born fruit so are not partakers of the kingdom of God.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Cornelius]

I enjoy our "bouts of agreement" much more ;)

Amen

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

We all will get there before the end comes.

 

[francisdesales]

Peter 2:2 is not referring to the saved.

Of course it is not, I have already said this. The wicked refered to are not saved NOW! They WERE saved before their turning to the vomit of their former life, a condition that is WORSE than before KNOWING Christ!!!

When a person knows Christ in a relationship and walks in the Spirit, obeys God in righteousness, they are saved!!! Peter is speaking of FORMERLY saved people who are NOT saved ANYMORE. Thus, your point ignores the fact of the matter.

So how did these "wolves in sheeps clothing" escape the pollutions of the world?

They heard the word of the Gospel, and entered the church, but returned to their old habits before they ever repented and received salvation.

That is not how you "escape the pollutions of the world". An atheist can sit in church, but they do not "escape the pollutions of the world". Escaping slavery to sin is ONLY going to happen when we call upon the Lord, repenting and believing - and then beginning the life in the Spirit. Upon our baptism into the Spirit, we are united with Christ's Paschal Mystery, His death and resurrection (which baptism clearly symbolizes through the ritual). We are saved!!! Freed from the slavery of sin, TODAY!!!

Sitting in church does not guarantee anything, it merely can lead to the realization that one needs repentance. Clearly, these "wicked" DID repent, since you cannot "know" the Lord unless you have a personal relationship with the Lord!!!

You'll see them around you - sitting beside you in the pews, having the appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof. They deny the Lordship of Christ in their lives, they preach and teach false doctrine, they are lovers of themselves rather than God. They have never been saved, they just walk among us.

No, they were saved by their repentance, their calling upon the name of the Lord. The issue is whether they REMAINED in that "calling upon the Lord". If they deny the Lordship in their lives, they are not calling upon the name of the Lord, they have no faith in God. This says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about whether they EVER had this faith!!!

These captives heard the Gospel but did not repent of their evil ways, but returned as a dog to it's vomit.

If they RETURNED to the vomit of their former lives, this strongly suggests they LEFT their former lives. HOW can you leave your former sinful way of life and NOT be saved???

You are skirting the issue.

HOW can a person live a life of holiness, obey God, know Jesus Christ and revert from a life of sin WITHOUT being saved????

That IS THE DEFINITION of being saved!!!

Regards