SALVATION

[Cornelius]

Here are scriptures that speak about the leadership (shepherds) that are leading the flock . Notice that they are hidden in our love-feasts (our fellowships) and that they feast (Christians feast on the Word) WITH us. These Christian leaders have no fear and feed themselves (These days they feed on the money of the flock) . They are cloud with no water (The water of the Word is not truly in them) , they are carried along by winds (winds of doctrine) they are autumn leaves (dry) without the fruit of Christ. Notice that they indeed have sprouted roots already, so the seed started growing, but now they are plucked up. They are twice dead, because they were twice born (born again) . They are wild waves of the sea (No real faith, they are like James teaches about the waves regarding faith) Wandering stars (the children of Abraham are likened to stars.) for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever. (They lost their salvation)

Jud 1:12 These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever.

 

[Cornelius]

We are entering into the last days as we speak. Many Christians have not prepared and have no idea how to live by faith, to receive the promises. Many are all too dependent on "Egypt" for their survival. Therefor , when the Mark is required to buy and sell, they will have no choice but to take it , if they want to eat , go to the doctor, get insurance, invest their money, buy their food, etc. They have been fighting against learning about faith.

Now these (and they will be many) Christians will loose their eternal salvation when they take the mark.

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[glorydaz]

Why do I get the feeling you believe other Christians don't have your level of belief? My faith is not a "bumper sticker" faith.

Where did I call your faith a bumper sticker faith? Why are you identifying with that part in my post ?

I totally agree with you about salvation, being the live of the resurrected Christ IN us. We differ on some points , but agree on most.

My purpose here is definitely NOT to speak down on any real Christian's faith. Jesus also said, He did not come to call the righteous. But here is the difference. Since I do NOT believe in once saved always saved, I am still going after the "tares" I believe that some of them, even though they have made a commitment, might just realize that their faith alone in this matter is not going to bring them through. Some tares might read this and THINK. I pray that the Lord will open hearts and save souls , even here on a forum.

I use to walk in a delusion as a Christian myself. Somebody , through their knowledge of the Word, was the instrument in God opening my eyes. Now I want to be able to do the same.

I have nothing against anybody personally on this forum. Would love to know you all in real life, but that is impossible.

I commend your exhortation, then, and will try not to take it personally in the future. :biglaugh

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Indeed, we need to be going after the "tares". They have not yet come into the saving knowledge of God, and if we can reach them, they will be spared. Just be careful you don't mistake them for children of the Kingdom. I'm thinking your confusion on this issue may be why you don't believe in OSAS. You see the tares as saved who can fall away from a salvation they never had to begin with.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

 

[Cornelius]

Just be careful you don't mistake them for children of the Kingdom.

Brother we are not called to judge them either way. 1Co 4:5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God.
and also, we must look to all with faith that God can indeed change them.Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.

I pray for myself too, that I am always able to see through the eyes of faith, when looking at somebody who professes the Name of the Lord. I have dear, dear brothers and sisters where I live, that believe in God and in His Son. They have no real knowledge of the Word, but even though some are unwilling to learn anything outside of their denominations, I still believe that the Lord will bring them to HIS truth, and remove them from the doctrines that keep them from fully walking in their inheritance.

I have seen how the Lord Himself can step in and open eyes. I really have seen this , this year. We prayed and God moved. A man who knew absolutely nothing of the Word, yet went to church all his life, all of a sudden was set on fire for the Lord, BY the Lord. He changed overnight ! Now another man, who we prayed for is going through a huge crises in his denomination. His leadership has shown themselves to NOT walk in truth. He is seeing it, nobody is telling him. We are keeping quiet. Just praying. God is busy opening his eyes, without anybody lifting a finger.

We are about to move into extraordinary times. We are going to see great things, and terrible things too. We will see God move on behalf of His people in amazing ways of power, but we will also see the separation of the tares and the wheat.

C

 

[beardedad]

You know I feel sorry for those who believe that you can become unsaved by sinning. The lord hung on the cross for our sins and you put him up there every day. The problem is not him it is us. Us (counting myself) being so pious and high and mighty to think that what we do could affect what God thinks about us.
Let me ask you something if you knew God liked you. Really liked you without reservation, that he knew all your secrets all your sins, but still wanted to be around you because he liked you. Would that change your view on religion yourself? I think it would. You would not worry about what you did, how you had to please someone. You would enjoy life.
I think it is far more arrogant for a Christian to focus on your own sins than to realize that God loves us no matter what we do. Our sins are not the issue if they were Jesus died on the cross in vain.
Someone said
“Thru grace with our ascent our desire begins to be transformed energies that once was dedicated simply to relieving ourselves from pain now become dedicated to a larger goodness, more aligned to the true treasure of our heart. Where we were once interested only in conquering a specific addition (sin) we are now claiming a deeper longing and we are concerned with becoming more free from attachments in general for the sake of that deep love. What had become as a urgent to reform our behavior has now become a process of transforming our life.â€
To put it more plainly God don’t care what sins you have committed, will commit, knowingly or unknowingly, he still loves you the same. When you begin to realize this one thing, that, as a saved believer in Christ, you are his yesterday, today and tomorrow you can live a freer better life for him.

 

[Cornelius]

To put it more plainly God don’t care what sins you have committed, will commit, knowingly or unknowingly, he still loves you the same.

How on earth can you say that ? You are giving a Christian community your opinion and making it as if it is indeed the gospel. Don't you know that the Word says that without holiness no man shall see the Lord? How do you get to teach people that their knowing , willing sin is not cared about by God, when God says there is no sacrifice left for that sin? Heb 10:26 For if we (we, meaning Christians) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

If you or anybody goes out against God and sins with a knowing, willing heart,you are sinning with a high hand against God. That is making a mockery of the cross. God does not love me or you or anybody "the same" if we go out and sin at our leisure and pleasure. Don' think that you can go out to a brothel and willingly decide to sin and then just say" I am sorry, forgive me" and then next night go again and say" Sorry , forgive me" and all will be well. God is not at ransom to our whims and doctrines.

We are NOT to live in sin. We have to repent of sin (change your mind) and stop agreeing with sin. You are to realize that indeed you are DEAD to sin and are well and able to stop sinning, because Jesus has indeed set you free.

 

[Cornelius]

Yes this is Old Testament, but it clearly speaks the same message as Hebrews ! NO willing sin allowed in Christianity , this was even so in the time of Israel.


Num 15:27 And if one person sin unwittingly, then he shall offer a she-goat a year old for a sin-offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that erreth, when he sinneth unwittingly, before Jehovah, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that doeth aught unwittingly, for him that is home-born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, (WILLING SIN) whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth Jehovah; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of Jehovah, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So much for once saved always saved. Read the Word ! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom !


2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Pro 1:7 The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge; But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[glorydaz]

No, they were saved by their repentance, their calling upon the name of the Lord. The issue is whether they REMAINED in that "calling upon the Lord". If they deny the Lordship in their lives, they are not calling upon the name of the Lord, they have no faith in God. This says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about whether they EVER had this faith.

Nor does saying because they'd escaped the pollutions of the world they'd repented.
The verse said they turned from the holy commandment. That tells me they never repented.
They'd turned from the commandment to repent.

Escaping from the pollutions of the world simply means they were captives who'd been set free by the work of the cross, as all men are. They heard the gospel, but never took the step of faith necessary for salvation. They went to church, they gave money to the poor, they even shared the gospel with their friends. They taught doctrine in the churches, they stopped beating their wives...on and on. They were professing Christians walking in the flesh.
Knowing the "way of righteousness," is a far cry from knowing God.
They had been exposed to the Gospel...nothing more.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You make too much of their "knowing righeousness"...in order to support your doctrine, you assume it's the same way a believer knows God. There is "knowing" and there is "knowing the way of". But when you look honestly at the entire chapter, you will see it is not speaking of those who have lost their salvation. Those people never had it to begin with.

Even the demons know God and His righteousness.

33And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, 34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

The Pharisees are the best example...they knew God, too.

14And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Here are those who "knew" God, yet glorified him not as God...

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[glorydaz]

Just be careful you don't mistake them for children of the Kingdom.

Brother we are not called to judge them either way. 1Co 4:5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God.
and also, we must look to all with faith that God can indeed change them.Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.

I didn't say we're to judge them. They are exactly the ones who need to hear the Word of God. Too often they get their ears tickled in the modern churches, and are still in need of being born again a new creation. You spoke of the man that changed so drastically. That's because he got saved, and is now a new man. I have many friends who are professing Christians, but aren't yet saved. The time is short, we shouldn't waste time arguing doctrine, but sharpening our swords...iron on iron ...so we can more effectively draw men into the Kingdom of God.

 

[glorydaz]

You know I feel sorry for those who believe that you can become unsaved by sinning. The lord hung on the cross for our sins and you put him up there every day.

Amen, brother. I don't know how anyone can read Romans 8 and have any doubt about it.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Cornelius]

Here are scriptures that speak about the leadership (shepherds) that are leading the flock . Notice that they are hidden in our love-feasts (our fellowships) and that they feast (Christians feast on the Word) WITH us. These Christian leaders have no fear and feed themselves (These days they feed on the money of the flock) . They are cloud with no water (The water of the Word is not truly in them) , they are carried along by winds (winds of doctrine) they are autumn leaves (dry) without the fruit of Christ. Notice that they indeed have sprouted roots already, so the seed started growing, but now they are plucked up. They are twice dead, because they were twice born (born again) . They are wild waves of the sea (No real faith, they are like James teaches about the waves regarding faith) Wandering stars (the children of Abraham are likened to stars.) for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever. (They lost their salvation)

Jud 1:12 These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes this is Old Testament, but it clearly speaks the same message as Hebrews ! NO willing sin allowed in Christianity , this was even so in the time of Israel.


Num 15:27 And if one person sin unwittingly, then he shall offer a she-goat a year old for a sin-offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that erreth, when he sinneth unwittingly, before Jehovah, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that doeth aught unwittingly, for him that is home-born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, (WILLING SIN) whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth Jehovah; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of Jehovah, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So much for once saved always saved. Read the Word ! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom !


2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Pro 1:7 The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge; But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

You indict the whole idea of eternal security because of your reading of what one person posted.
Then you post the law as a mockery of grace.
We are not to put ourselves under the law in any way.

In the first place, Jesus is the perfect sacrifce, and He offered His blood one time for our sins.
Paul said what he didn't want to do, he did.
What he wanted to do, he didn't.

You can't even begin to claim you haven't sinned, in some small matter, in spite of knowing you shouldn't. To lie is a sin. Do you tell your wife she looks dumpy when she asks you how she looks?

Do you tell your boss you saw him cheating on his taxes? Sins of omission, you know...

No, brother...if we are born again, we are sons of God and nothing will take away our salvation.
I'll tell you what will happen, though. God will make us so miserable we'll wish we'd never done it, and we'll sure be slow about doing it again. This is the "sorer punishment, and the "fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" spoken of in Heb. We won't lose our salvation, but we will be punished.

God does not lie...but He can be misunderstood.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

[glorydaz]

Here are scriptures that speak about the leadership (shepherds) that are leading the flock . Notice that they are hidden in our love-feasts (our fellowships) and that they feast (Christians feast on the Word) WITH us. These Christian leaders have no fear and feed themselves (These days they feed on the money of the flock) . They are cloud with no water (The water of the Word is not truly in them) , they are carried along by winds (winds of doctrine) they are autumn leaves (dry) without the fruit of Christ. Notice that they indeed have sprouted roots already, so the seed started growing, but now they are plucked up. They are twice dead, because they were twice born (born again) . They are wild waves of the sea (No real faith, they are like James teaches about the waves regarding faith) Wandering stars (the children of Abraham are likened to stars.) for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever. (They lost their salvation)

Jud 1:12 These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever.

They are tares...sown by the enemy, growing up in the midst of the wheat.
They are twice dead referring to the second death at the judgment.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[Panin]

You stretching and twisting the meaning here. Salvation is not even mentioned.

No, I am not stretching anything. I am putting 2 and 2 together. If you are interested in what the Bible actually says, then give me a minute of your time and reflect on these comments...

First, let me define "salvation".

Being saved is that point where we begin a new walk in the Spirit - and CONTINUE in that walk. It also refers to a CURRENT condition. We repent of our sins and are forgiven. We take on the divine nature, as Peter says earlier. We are able to love and forgive others because we are MADE "God-like" (called "theosis" or "divinization" by the Church Fathers of ancient Christianity). All as a result of the Spirit working in me, I personally am able to love and forgive. Turning from sin and walking in Christ is being saved, and this is EXACTLY what 2 Peter tells us about the "wicked preachers" or anyone who followed them WERE.

The people of 2 Peter had escaped the pollutions of sin. How else can we do that, my friend? Can we work our way without the Spirit to escape sin?

They obeyed the commandments of God. Do you suggest that Peter thought there was ANOTHER principle that guided men to obey God's commandments???

Follow the ways of righteousness. You suggest that we can do that, as well, without being saved???

No, the word "salvation" is not used... No matter, we know what being saved is and Peter describes the conditions of salvation where we are forgiven of sins and begin to walk in the Lord...
Unless you suggest there is ANOTHER way that we can obey God WITHOUT being saved...

These "wicked" men were ONCE saved - that is beyond doubt.

So clearly, we CAN lose THAT salvation - since a person NOT walking in the Lord, NOT obeying the commandments, NOT following the ways of righteousness, RETURNING to a life of sin (RETURN means they - at one time - were NOT in sin - are no longer saved. Again, ANY OTHER way we can avoid sin, my friend???

Is this condition of "being saved" guaranteed? No, Peter describes some who are NO LONGER saved - since they have fallen into a condition WORSE than before...

Now, HOW can a saved person be in a condition that is WORSE THAN BEFORE being saved - and STILL be saved??? It is not possible. A person's walk TODAY describes whether they are saved, not something said 20 years ago. That idea is a false gospel.

Thus, once you understand what Peter is saying here, that some people were once saved, freed from sin, walk in the Spirit - CAN TURN BACK to a pre-saved condition, one worse than before - you will see that you are incorrectly understanding the Scriptures taught by the Church.

Knowledge and knowing is not the same as receiving and accepting salvation. I dont need to think long and hard about this at all. And further more the only reason I did not post this scripture along with the others is becuase I knew it would be brought up to allude that it means one can loose their slavation. Well it don't.

No, knowledge alone is not enough - IF we define "knowledge" as "information", which is anachronistic. We are speaking of Sacred Scripture, not the 21st century...

That is not what "knowledge" means here, or in most portions of Scriptures that deal with the act of faith and the resulting fruit. It is clear that this knowledge (and "knowledge" here refers to what precedes Baptism - since "being enlightened" refers to a knowledge gained by an experiential meeting between Christ and the individual within the community). "Knowing something" refers to something much more sublime than our idea of book knowledge. It is knowing through experiencing someone in a relationship, as a man and wife "knowing" each other. Would you agree that "knowing" one's wife in Scriptures means something MORE than just knowing THINGS about her??? No, "knowing" in Scriptures is something much deeper than that.

And what does THIS "knowing" in 2 Peter lead to? Escaping sin, following the commandments, being righteous. This "knowing", a meeting of Jesus Christ, is what begins our being saved.

Again, they escaped sin. Please explain HOW we can escape sin and NOT be saved, please....

Your arguemnets are as old as the hills, there is nothing new in what you are saying.

AH, so innovation and re-invention is the sign of correct doctrine and beliefs???

If we invent something new, it must be correct, while Christians of the past 2000 years were crazy for believing something taught by the Apostles long ago???

I challenge you to find me something from the first 1000 years of Christianity that clearly points out that no one can lose their salvation, no matter what they do. An argument "older than the hills" has meaning because it has been tested and found correct by Christians of many different ages. IF it was ridiculous, it would have been dismissed long ago.

However, to appease busy American Christians who don't have time to pray and worship the Lord, busy with their "real life", the doctrine of OSAS appeals, since they can do their one-time faith declaration and "get on with their life". Clearly, such teachings avoid the clarion call to repent and CHANGE, turning aside from a life of sin and slavery. It is a "feel-good" teaching that gives false security to busy people who don't have that much time for ACTUALLY repenting and changing their lives and KEEPING them that way.

Returning to a life of sin is NOT a sign of being saved, since saved = saved from a life of sin, not a bus pass to heaven.

And at the end of the day, my friend, you can belive what ever you like. I don't believe what you believe and I dont twist the meanings of scripture either.

I know you don't believe what I do - which is why I am trying to point out your error. I am not saying you are twisting 2 Peter, but you ARE avoiding the meaning of it to protect your false doctrine. Answer me the questions in red, and tell me how ELSE they did these things, WITHOUT being saved???

These people were saved, with or without the use of the actual word, my brother.

Regards

You're all over the shop my friend. If you are correct then the only person we know of who's eternal salvation is secured is the theif on the cross. Why? Because he didnt have time or the oportunity to sin before he died after believing in Christ. By all means go ahead and start another religion, but don't call it christianity please. Oh thats right you don't, you call it catholism. As you where. By the way the Lord is my only father. "Church Fathers??" Whats that bunkum?? "Call no man father but your father in heaven, does that ring any bells?

Also if you are right, I'm not saved, never was, never will be. So we aren't brothers. And I don't want to join your religion.

By the way, you would need to burn and destroy several thousand scriptures from the word of God in order for me to even entertain the idea that a Christian can ever loose his salvation.

Over 100 million saints where murdered (by catholics) for what? For not reacanting that The Lord Jesus Christ is their Lord and saviour and the only way to heaven. These are you chruch fathers my friend, mass murderers. The leaders of the inquition weren't ever bothered by people practising good works, nor did they kill any backsliders. There is some 1000 year old proof for you.

 

[Panin]

Re: Works Based Salvation ...

Lets see you do the twist with these scriptures now chaps. I cant wait.

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (only those who are born of God can keep his commandments, so don't start throwing this or the next scripture in my face latter please.)


1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men (and internet hucksters), the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (hello, not in your works!!)

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (um its doesnt say he who does not keep the commandments does not have this life - so please get up off of me with that crap, Im serious)

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jo 5:14 ¶ And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, (what does that mean?, Not unto death??) he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (and what is that, pray tell me, do you know????)


1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; Is that right, so what does this mean considering we all know we have sinned, even after receiving Christ, come on eintsiens? What is the answer.

but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

I left this here so that you can all turn around now and say "YOU SEE THIS MEANS IF YOU DONT KEEP YOURSELF THEN YOU HAVE LOST YOUR SALVATION" WRONG ANSWER, IT MEANS YOU WHERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. CART BEFORE THE HORSE as usual.


1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols and LIARS on internet forums. Amen.

I've added to the Word, I've definately lost my salvation now. Please pray for me.

I know I am saved. DO YOU????

 

[glorydaz]

I'm sure glad God loves His children, those He's called according to His purpose.

They come out of every nation and every denomination....God looks at the heart, whether or not we understand why we're His or not. Last I heard, we could come with the faith of a child. Our understanding of the finer points of the workings of God are not what makes us acceptable in the brethern.

 

[Cornelius]

Over 100 million saints where murdered (by catholics) for what? For not reacanting that The Lord Jesus Christ is their Lord and saviour and the only way to heaven. These are you chruch fathers my friend, mass murderers. The leaders of the inquition weren't ever bothered by people practising good works, nor did they kill any backsliders. There is some 1000 year old proof for you.

You are being unfair here and you know this will derail this conversation if francisdesales takes the bait, which I hope he does not do.

 

[Cornelius]

They are tares...sown by the enemy, growing up in the midst of the wheat.
They are twice dead referring to the second death at the judgment.

Twice dead while they are still alive and plucked up by their roots. They are Christians brother. They have roots ! Tares are Christians too. They are just not chosen in the end.

Many are called to manifest Christ, but at the end few are chosen. Why? Because the gate is narrow and few enter into it.Surely you agree that Christians must manifest Christ? and that God is not taking our old lives to heaven? He is only interested in Christ in us.In ourselves we are nothing. In fact, the Gospel shows us that we must "die" if we want to life eternally.(baptism is a type for this truth)



So when we are called, we take up our cross (an instrument of DEATH and not just a heavy weight , like they teach you) We follow Jesus to our own fleshly-oldlife death. ) Some start out with great joy and then find out that they cannot finish. They cannot give up their old lives. Surely you know how difficult it is to let go of some things? I know. I have things that must die in me still too. If I do not allow them to die, my old self lives and then Jesus says:Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. So if I refuse to die , then Jesus will say: Sorry Cornelius, I told you that if you do not take up your cross and come after me, you CANNOT be my disciple.



Luk 17:33 Whosoever (even Christians !) shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose [his life] shall preserve it.


Now if anybody thinks they can make it to heaven without being a disciple, then I wish them luck.

 

[Panin]

Over 100 million saints where murdered (by catholics) for what? For not reacanting that The Lord Jesus Christ is their Lord and saviour and the only way to heaven. These are you chruch fathers my friend, mass murderers. The leaders of the inquition weren't ever bothered by people practising good works, nor did they kill any backsliders. There is some 1000 year old proof for you.

You are being unfair here and you know this will derail this conversation if francisdesales takes the bait, which I hope he does not do.

Have you read Foxes book of Martyres? The truth only hurts of your on the wrong side of it.

What is said is not a personal attack on anyone. Catholics call themselves Catholics not christans. To this day, I have no idea wht the word means or wher it came from.

Who and what organisation was behind the killing of 100,000 million Christians throughout history?

 

[Panin]

They are tares...sown by the enemy, growing up in the midst of the wheat.
They are twice dead referring to the second death at the judgment.

Awe man this is getting rediculous, are you telling me that the tares are Christian?? Please clarify that. Oh yes you did clarify it, sorry.

My friend, Im sorry but your out of your mind.