SALVATION

[Free]

Everyone,

Keep this on topic and address the arguments and not the person or this will be locked for good.

 

[Drew]

Re: Not By Works ....

I would ask where it's been shown that good works are necessary for salvation.

That's an easy question to answer:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

To be frank, this is an "emperor has no clothes" scenario - there is no legitimate way to deny what Paul is asserting. What is being given by God? Answer: Eternal life. To whom is that life given? Those who persist in doing good.

I am not sure how you justify your view that this is true only for the regenerate - there is no evidence at all in Romans 2 that Paul is only addressing unregenerate.

And it should be clear, as per repeated and unchallenged statements - there simply is no incoherence in asserting, as Paul does, that faitn and faith alone suffices for the receipt of the Spririt who produces the works that justify at the Romans 2 judgement.

 

[Drew]

Rom. 2, though is only the middle of the lesson Paul is teaching. Notice how Paul speaks of the riches of God's goodness...and that it's God's goodness that leads to repentance.
God calls all men everywhere to repent. Also, after explaining to these people, the question remains, "7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? "

The fact remains: Paul says in Romans 2 that people will be given eternal life based on persistence in doing good. The fact that it is in the middle of an argument does not mean that Paul does not mean it.

It would be extraordinary for Paul to write Romans 2:7 if he did not believe it. It is, of course possible, that Paul is describing a path that no one will take. But in that case we would expect Paul to give us at least the hint of a reason as to why he is not to be taken literally here.

I have seen no reason not to take Paul at his word.

Saying that only the unregenerate will be at this judgement and that zero persons will get eternal life based on their works would requiire that Paul repeatedly tells us that some people will get eternal life based on works while believing the number of such people equals zero. Well where is there even a hint that Paul believes this?

 

[Drew]

And what did Paul tell the prison keeper he needed to do to be saved? Believe.

No one is denying that we need to believe to be saved.

But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, Paul was not kidding when he wrote that "to those who persist in doing good, God will give eternal life". Paul's position is this: Ultimate justification is based on good works - Paul tells us in no uncertain terms in Romans 2. But we can know in advance who will manifest those works. Who are those people? Those who believe.

Again an analogy. At your 100 birthday party people ask your doctor how you lived so long. You answer correctly - it was the "work" of that pacemaker I had installed when I was 70. And when you were 70, what happened? - you accepted gift of the pacemaker on faith alone. That act, at age 70, was an act of faith and faith alone.

Is that any clearer?

 

[Drew]

Re: Salvation By Grace - Evidence ....

The entire chapter of Eph. is as clear as a bell. I don't know where you get the idea the Torah has any part of it. You keep talking about it as if it's a settled matter. It's talking to the born again believer...period. And there is no works salvation anywhere in it.

First, this is a statement of a position, not an argument.

Second, you and others have been repeatedly pointed to a detailed argument that I have already presented in this thread about how the "works" here must be the works of Torah.

Imagine how a scientist would feel if his argument and evidence is simply ignored by his critics.

Now. I have provided an argument - you simply cannot ignore it if you are going to engage in responsible debate. Are you having trouble finding it?

Why should I participate if my arguments are simply going to be ignored?

 

[shad]

Re: Go, Sell Everything You Have ... !!!

="vja4Him;

Shad -- Then why don't you follow Jesus' commandment:

I follow Jesus' commandment because He is my Lord and my Savior and He tells us to be faithful to Him until the end.

Being faithful to Jesus is all work!

 

[Drew]

Drew, the verse said they "seek" eternal life...not they receive eternal life.

Are you serious? Please read the text carefully:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

How you deny that God is giving people eternal life here is hard to understand. Can you explain, please.

 

[Drew]

If man's works could have saved him, there would have been no need for our Lord to die on the cross.

God would have just said, do good and go to heaven.

This is not a valid argument. I am not saying that our own works can save us - I am saying the works produced by the Holy Spirit save us. And Jesus had to die so that we get the Spirit.

Please consider this statement:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Paul said this. It is clear to a grade school student that this is a statement that eternal life is given based on good works. Now, to be fair, that's not the end of the story. Perhaps Paul preceded this with a statement of the form: "I am now going to tell you about a path to eternal life that no one will succeed in following"

gd: where does Paul say anything like this? I know that you think Romans 3 shows that no one will be justified by "good works". Well, this is simply not true, as I will show in the following posts

 

[Fembot]

Gee thanks Drew

 

[shad]

Re: Go, Sell Everything You Have ... !!!

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Jesus also says "if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out". Do you think Jesus actually means to pluck out your eye? I have family to support, we are saving up all for God's mission. We dont attend church, so I can devote to my own mission.

Jesus is saying to do whatever it takes to serve God. Please dont misuse the Scripture to attack your opponents.

 

[Drew]

It is very widely held that Paul’s Romans 2 description of a future justification by “good works†is a polemical device; Paul describes a path to justification that no person can possibly take. Then, in Romans 3, Paul shows that, indeed, no person can be justified by good works and that faith is the only road to ultimate justification. On this view, Paul is seen as putting together a two part argument: First, express a commonly held view of justification (good works) and then, second, undermine the possibility of such a route to justification and provide the true route – faith.

This view is so widely held as to have the status of an established element of Christian orthodoxy. However, it is not a very good account of what Paul is doing. While it would be entirely plausible for Paul to use this kind of two part argument, a careful examination of the details shows that that he is doing nothing of the kind.

I will briefly characterize the problems with this position:

1. There is no evidence whatsoever in the text leading up to, and inclusive of the Romans 2 material itself, that Paul is expressing a position that he believes is false - he gives us no inkling or hint that he is setting up a later refutation of what he writes;

2. Romans 3 never denies justification by good works, it denies justification by doing the works of the Torah.

First, the easy bit - Romans 3. It is clear that the references to the law in that chapter are references to the Torah - the written Law of Moses that was for Jews and Jews only. We know this because of this:

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

The content of verse 29 is the key. Paul is saying that salvation is open to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Therefore, when he writes that justification is "apart from observing the law", he must mean the Torah, because it is possession and following of Torah that would otherwise shut the Gentile out - since they do not have Torah. If justification were really by Torah, the Gentile would be excluded and God would "God of the Jews only". Paul argues salvation for Jews and Jews only by asserting that salvation is not by Torah.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew, the verse said they "seek" eternal life...not they receive eternal life.

Are you serious? Please read the text carefully:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

How you deny that God is giving people eternal life here is hard to understand. Can you explain, please.

If you read chapter one, you'll see Paul is speaking of the depravity of the gentiles. In chapter two, he makes it clear to the Jews that they are worse off than even the gentiles because they have had a history of knowing God...the gentiles only had the natural law written in their hearts...conscience. He is explaining that they will all be judged according to their works. It's a history of the state of the Jews and gentiles from creation to the time of Christ. He's speaking to unregenerate man who faced the judgment based on their works....pre-cross. He goes on to tell them about grace and what was needed to be saved. Just as the saints before the cross looked forward to the cross...Paul is describing the state of man before they had access to the work of the cross. He takes us step by step through what man has gone through, as well as what we all go through. We seek after righteousness...we're each given a measure of grace and faith to lead us into repentance. If you look at Romans, as a whole, you'll see a theme. Here in chapter two, Paul is showing that whichever law we're under (natural or stone), we need to go on into a saving faith in Christ. I read through this again while the thread was locked down, and it's so clear to me. How were people saved before the cross? They could be justified by faith, but they couldn't enter into the promise until our Lord was crucified and resurrected. Those people were judged on their works....as we all are until we're born again. Without the cross, we would all be judged on our works alone. Those that haven't been born again are still judged on their works alone.

These people, Paul is referring to, are seeking honor and righteousness by their good works. If they persist and go on, they can take the grace they're given, add faith and repent. Paul is leading them on just the way you do when you witness to someone. You say, you can have eternal life if you believe and repent...accepting the redemption offered on the cross. I know you don't agree, and I really don't want to argue about it. You may be right, but at this point, I just don't see it. I see a progression that fits right in with the gospel message. You'll be judged on your works if you don't accept the Lord's saving grace. Keep seeking and you will find. Go on into glory. Man spends a lot of time seeking and hoping before they surrender and repent. Paul's telling them what they can have if they keep seeking.

 

[Drew]

Re: Bump for Drew ....

Hmmm ... That's an interesting twist, but I already knew that angle from your theological camp. So, Drew, who is actually performing those physical acts of good deeds? You, right?

Even though God works through us, we are still doing the physical works. We are not puppets. God is not forcing us, beating us, whipping us, threatening to torture or kill us if we don't do the good works.

We are still doing them, right? So, you are just putting a different twist to your belief, that works are necessary for salvation.

I still disagree .... There are absolutely NO works that you can do which will save you. If you trust in your works, then you have not trusted in the work of Christ on the cross, and His precious blood.

Well you are free to disagree. But you are disagreeing with Paul. What do you think Paul means when he writes this?:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The language is clear. We have a statement about something that is given to people. What is the thing given to people?

I think the answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, vj?

The statement also declares the basis for getting this thing. What is the basis?

I think the answer is "persistence in doing good". What is your answer, vj?

 

[Drew]

If you read chapter one, you'll see Paul is speaking of the depravity of the gentiles. In chapter two, he makes it clear to the Jews that they are worse off than even the gentiles because they have had a history of knowing God...the gentiles only had the natural law written in their hearts...conscience. He is explaining that they will all be judged according to their works. It's a history of the state of the Jews and gentiles from creation to the time of Christ.

Where, and please tell us exactly where, does Paul tell us that this history ends at the time of Christ? And where, and please tell us exactly where, Paul limits his treatment to unregenerate people, Jew or Gentile?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Bump for Drew ....

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The language is clear. We have a statement about something that is given to people. What is the thing given to people?

I think the answer is "eternal life". What is your answer, vj?

The statement also declares the basis for getting this thing. What is the basis?

I think the answer is "persistence in doing good". What is your answer, vj?

Does your Bible really say, "he will give eternal life"?

This is what mine says,
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

It's just in the list they will seek after.

 

[Drew]

In Romans 2, there is a statement about the “law†being written on the heart of the Gentile:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Although this text is widely seen as suggesting that God’s “law†is written on the hearts of human beings in general, Paul here is instead describing the writing of the “law†on the hearts of believers (and in this context, specifically Gentile believers).

The entire discussion turns on the Greek word that has been translated here in the NASB as “instinctively†in verse 14. I am going to argue that this rendering does not properly express Paul’s intent. I will argue that Paul basis assertion is not this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€

…but instead this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

The reader should note that while the first rendering indeed suggests that pagan Gentiles have a form of law written on their hearts, the second rendering in no sense preferentially supports such a reading over a reading where it is only believing Gentiles that have the law written on their heart (the position that I hold).

The greek root word at issue is “fuseiâ€, which is often translated as “by nature†(although not in the NASB rendering of 2:14 where it is rendered as “instinctivelyâ€). The western reader should be careful to understand this properly. Paul uses this very same word, in other contexts, to denote what is true of someone by virtue of the circumstances of their birth. One example is Ephesian 2:3:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Perhaps more tellingly, we have this same root “fusei†used just a few verses further on in Romans 2:

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “physically†and as “instinctively†in verse 14. Note how the word is rendered in the YLT translation of 2:27:

and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in verse 27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of birth for the Gentile. It seems only reasonable that Paul uses this same greek root in the same “by birth†sense only a few verses back in 2:14.

Thus, it is highly plausible that what Paul is saying in about the law in verse 14 is that the Gentiles do not possess it by the circumstances of their birth, and not that the unregenerate Gentile has an innate, or instinctive sense of the law.

In fact, note how Jeremiah, uses very same “law written on the heart†concept:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Note how the prophet uses “law written on the heart†language to describe something that will happen in the future and will which will be effective only for believers. Paul is deeply knowledgeable of Old Testament concepts and would more likely tan not use “law written on the heart†language in the same way it was used in the Old Testament.

 

[Drew]

Re: Bump for Drew ....

Does your Bible really say, "he will give eternal life"?

This is what mine says,
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

It's just in the list they will seek after.

I do not think you are reading this properly. When the preceding verse is included, it is clear that eternal life is what is being given:

who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Grammtatically, this is equivalent to saying that eternal life is given to those who by perserverence in doing good, seek that life. So its the same as my version - the NIV.

Here is the NET translation: He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality

Do you now see where I am coming from? I see no way to make this mean anything other than a promise that eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good.

 

[glorydaz]

If you read chapter one, you'll see Paul is speaking of the depravity of the gentiles. In chapter two, he makes it clear to the Jews that they are worse off than even the gentiles because they have had a history of knowing God...the gentiles only had the natural law written in their hearts...conscience. He is explaining that they will all be judged according to their works. It's a history of the state of the Jews and gentiles from creation to the time of Christ.

Where, and please tell us exactly where, does Paul tell us that this history ends at the time of Christ? And where, and please tell us exactly where, Paul limits his treatment to unregenerate people, Jew or Gentile?

This is where he starts...saying first all men are without excuse. The Jews had the stone law and the gentiles had the natural law
He calls them to repent

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Those who sin without the law will perish...that takes care of the gentiles.
Those who sin with the law will be judged by the law...which we know the Jews couldn't keep...since if they failed in one part they failed the whole thing.
Then he says only the doers will be justified.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

First he'd railed on the gentiles...listing our their sins, then he turns on the Jews...telling them they judge and do the same thing themselves. This is where he lets them know that they are all in the same boat.

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And this is where he tells them about saving faith in Christ.
He lets them know the law of the Jew won't justify them nor will the good works of the gentiles.

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 

[glorydaz]

In Romans 2, there is a statement about the “law†being written on the heart of the Gentile:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Although this text is widely seen as suggesting that God’s “law†is written on the hearts of human beings in general, Paul here is instead describing the writing of the “law†on the hearts of believers (and in this context, specifically Gentile believers).

The entire discussion turns on the Greek word that has been translated here in the NASB as “instinctively†in verse 14. I am going to argue that this rendering does not properly express Paul’s intent. I will argue that Paul basis assertion is not this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€

…but instead this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

The reader should note that while the first rendering indeed suggests that pagan Gentiles have a form of law written on their hearts, the second rendering in no sense preferentially supports such a reading over a reading where it is only believing Gentiles that have the law written on their heart (the position that I hold).

The greek root word at issue is “fuseiâ€, which is often translated as “by nature†(although not in the NASB rendering of 2:14 where it is rendered as “instinctivelyâ€). The western reader should be careful to understand this properly. Paul uses this very same word, in other contexts, to denote what is true of someone by virtue of the circumstances of their birth. One example is Ephesian 2:3:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Perhaps more tellingly, we have this same root “fusei†used just a few verses further on in Romans 2:

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “physically†and as “instinctively†in verse 14. Note how the word is rendered in the YLT translation of 2:27:

and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in verse 27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of birth for the Gentile. It seems only reasonable that Paul uses this same greek root in the same “by birth†sense only a few verses back in 2:14.

Thus, it is highly plausible that what Paul is saying in about the law in verse 14 is that the Gentiles do not possess it by the circumstances of their birth, and not that the unregenerate Gentile has an innate, or instinctive sense of the law.

In fact, note how Jeremiah, uses very same “law written on the heart†concept:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Note how the prophet uses “law written on the heart†language to describe something that will happen in the future and will which will be effective only for believers. Paul is deeply knowledgeable of Old Testament concepts and would more likely than not use “law written on the heart†language in the same way it was used in the Old Testament.

I think it's the natural law...the eternal law that has been in the heart of man from the beginning.
there are quite a few scripture to support that. The conscience ....

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Bump for Drew ....

Does your Bible really say, "he will give eternal life"?

This is what mine says,
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

It's just in the list they will seek after.

I do not think you are reading this properly. When the preceding verse is included, it is clear that eternal life is what is being given:

who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Grammtatically, this is equivalent to saying that eternal life is given to those who by perserverence in doing good, seek that life. So its the same as my version - the NIV.

Here is the NET translation: He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality

Do you now see where I am coming from? I see no way to make this mean anything other than a promise that eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good.

I do see where you're coming from, but I still think it is saying if you seek with all your heart you will find. All these things will be added onto you.

32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.

And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.