Same Sex Relationships

[VaultZero4Me]

Romans 1:
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Matt 22:37-38
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Acts 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Ok, to get the argument for proof back on track, I pulled all of the NT verses site here into these quotes. It has certainly proven that it is a sin in the Bible (not my intent to disprove that. I agree that the Bible lays it out to be one.). I am still missing where it lays it out to be a worse sin than gluttony. Does anyone want to point out my error, or add something else?

 

[Imagican]

VaultZero4Me,

OOOOOOOO....Kay!!! Now we are getting somewhere.

Firstly Vault, let me offer this: ALL that 'claim' to BE Christian DO NOT follow the teachings of Christ NOR do all that make such claims EVEN UNDERSTAND the teachings to BEGIN with. This becomes obvious when we encounter ALL the 'different' views that are held by the 'group' that 'call themselves' "CHRISTIANS".

Secondly, our argument here could come to NO conclusion IF you do NOT accept The Word as offered to BE THE TRUTH. So we could have this discussion for YEARS and still not convince the other of his point of view.

Your friends that 'claim' to BE Christians and believe as you are a PRIME example of the direction Christianity has taken in these present times. For there are EVEN churches that 'claim' to BE Christian that cater to homosexuals.

Now, as I have previously stated: I am UNABLE to judge the Salvation, (or lack thereof), of ANY man. BUT, I can certainly discern The Word and what it states about what IS Right and what IS Wrong. And I can PROMISE you that homosexuality brings about a 'separation' from God and therefore His Son as well. I would NEVER offer the idea that homosexuals CANNOT be saved. But I find it hard to understand HOW this could BE so long as one were to continue in this type behavior WITHOUT repentance.

I am QUITE sure that Christ HAS touched lives of MANY that practice this behavior and brought them OUT OF THE DARKNESS and INTO THE LIGHT of understanding. But the INDICATION is that once one begins to follow this path of 'same sex relationships' they begin to entertain DEMONS. And the MORE one entertains them, the more POWER they have over the lives of that individual. And once one reaches a 'certain point', it is VERY VERY difficult to EVER 'go back'. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, but VERY VERY difficult. For the MORE one 'hardens their hearts' to God, the more difficult it becomes to even hear His Voice.

Christ came to SAVE sinners. If one does NOT realize and admit that they are sinners, in their hearts, they ARE NOT. Therefore there IS not redemption or Salvation, for Christ DOES NOT save those that DON'T believe they NEED Him. Not so far as MY understanding is concerned. ANYTHING is 'possible' but EVERYTHING IN THE WORD INDICATES that one MUST realize that they NEED Christ in their lives or Christ WILL NOT DWELL THERE. It's called 'acceptance'. And denial IS the ONE unforgivable SIN that we KNOW exists.

And Vault, "i" didn't MAKE the RULES. What is and WHY some things are 'againt God' is for HIM to dertermine and NOT for me to quetion the validity of. Some things I understand COMPLETELY and others exmplanation are STILL quite vague. But suffice is to say that I DO accept what has been offered and instead of 'denying it', I make every effort possible to allow The Spirit to lend guidance and understanding.

These are PERILOUS times that we live in NOW. For even those that we would DEPEND on to LEAD us in the PROPER direction have MOSTLY been led astray by The World. We were warned that this would take place BEFORE Christ's return and you can BANK ON IT. This makes it very difficult to KNOW where to turn in order to find proper direction. The ONLY answer that I have for this is: READ and PRAY. Read God's Word and pray that The Spirit WILL offer guidance. And then FOLLOW THIS rather than the 'teachings of men'.

The FACT that you are HERE, NOW is an indication to ME that you MUST be 'seeking' TRUTH or you would be 'somewhere ELSE'. Perhaps God IS speaking to your heart RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE and all that is NEEDED is for you to LISTEN. I hope and pray that this IS The Truth. And when He KNOCKS, by all means, open the door of your heart and LET HIM IN.

God Bless you my brother,

MEC

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me:
Ok, to get the argument for proof back on track, I pulled all of the NT verses site here into these quotes. It has certainly proven that it is a sin in the Bible (not my intent to disprove that. I agree that the Bible lays it out to be one.). I am still missing where it lays it out to be a worse sin than gluttony. Does anyone want to point out my error, or add something else?

I don’t think we can prove scripturally that sodomy is a greater sin than muzzling the ox either according to your reasoning. You make a list to get the argument for proof back on track and you leave out your own submission for gluttony:

Dut. 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I am not seeing the parts you added into their. It plainly says to stone him, and that gluttony was part of his sin.

If I take your addition to it, I can see that you yourself admit that gluttony is only ‘part’ of his sin, where sodomy got a person stoned all by itself. Case closed, unless you have more verses up your sleeve.

I suggested that you go with adultery as a comparable sin. You don’t seem to be too keen on the idea of people picketing outside office buildings where known adulterers work. Why is that? Don’t you believe that adultery is as great a sin as homosexuality? I’m sure you could find a slew of verses for that!

 

[bibleberean]

On television, in almost every form of media same sex relationships are being pushed and touted as normal and acceptable.

In our schools and in our government Christians and others who know that this is a perverted lifestyle are having this degenerate and unhealthy sin shoved down their throats. In some nations in Europe and elsewhere people are in danger of being sued, losing church status or arrested for speaking out against this lifestyle.

These people will accuse us of being "homophobic" or picking on homosexuals when in reality they simply hate our stand against this sick and twisted lifestyle.

The minions of Satan disguising themselves as messengers of reason and light wish to distract us from the issue by downplaying this filthy sin and will use convoluted and seprentine arguments to do so.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

But not to worry. :D

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We know that same sex relationships are a sign that God has turned over people who claim to know God but refuse to believe His word or people that claim there is no God from the scriptures.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Satan is clever and so are his followers. They clain to be Christians or people interested in justice but in reality they are perverts themselves.

Notice that after God turns people over to this sin they degenerate further and furthe into depravity.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Stand fast Chrisitian! It is not you that has the problem because you are against sin and this one as well.

Satan loves to wear down the saints to get them to compromise. He is an accuser and will use your own weakness against you to wear you down.

But guess what?

We have a weapon and a shield.

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

And don't forget to do this too! :D

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

God bless all Christians with the courage and fortitude to stand against this sin under the enormous pressure Satan and the world place upon His children.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Maybe I am just missing the point at which it becomes higher higher up in the heirarchy than the sin of gluttony, because I surely do not see it. I just see it being established as a sin.

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me:

Maybe I am just missing the point at which it becomes higher higher up in the heirarchy than the sin of gluttony, because I surely do not see it. I just see it being established as a sin.

I’m SURE adultery is right up there with sodomy. Why exactly is it that you don’t want to have awareness of the sin of adultery compared to homosexual behavior? This would give you the leverage you need to expose the hypocrisy of those who condemn the one and ignore the other. I say, Go for it! :-D

OH, btw, I came up with some sign suggestions for you:

Adultery is as bad as Homosexuality!

Adultery spreads AIDS!

Adultery = the Disease link between Gays and Straights!

Or maybe something clever like:

Adultery: the Other Wife Meet
or:
Adultery, It’s not just for Sinners Anymore!

Oh well, I need practice. It's kind of a new idea.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Gluttony is more than a sin; it is a social mental disease. Gluttony attacks the very moral fibre of society. They destroy the temple of the God with food that is unhealthy, and in unhealthy amounts. They say they believe in God, but the god they believe in is false, food. They have therefore put another god before the true God. This is blasphemy and heresy.

Matt 22:37-38
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Gluttons have turned their backs on God; therefore, breaking what Jesus has said is the “first and greatest commandment.â€Â

Ok, so we are even

I wish to comment more on this reply to my previous post.

Replacing homosexuality with gluttony is cute but does not necessarily apply in my opinion. But if you feel that it applies the same, that's fine with me.

You have been looking for scripture proof that homosexuality is worse than gluttony. Gluttony vs. homosexuality as one being worse than the other is probably more in the eyes of the person than God. God hates all sin. I was attempting to show you why society protests homosexuality more than gluttony. From reading your post, there is probably nothing any one can say to change your mind. That's OK.

To me though gluttony is not usually a sin that happens all at once, it evolves into itself over time. It may start off with just a little over indulging and leads finally to more and more. I would venture to say that most gluttons do not make a conscious decision to be a glutton. However, homosexuality is willfully done from the beginning. Most of us overeat now and then during the holidays. Does that make us a glutton? To some degree maybe yes. But when the holidays or celebration is over we usually go back to our normal diet. If a person has a homosexual relationship once and repents, they to will be forgiven.

If some one continues in either behavior their judgment is in God’s hands not ours. That doesn’t mean that people are not going to have opinions of one being worse than another.

If I understand you correctly you are questioning why society judges homosexuality more harshly the gluttony.

I have a scenario for you. Let’s say you were in some foreign country. You are neither a homosexual nor a glutton. Terrorist have your daughter and are going to rape then kill her if you don’t perform one of the following. To save her you must:

Either be a glutton and stuff yourself on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years or
Perform homosexual acts for the two men on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.

Knowing that either one would save your daughter’s life and keep them from raping her, which one would you choose?
:D

 

[bibleberean]

Somehow I think two men having sex together is little more slimy than eating a few too many french fries.

But that's just me... :D

Having unnatural sex is extreme in and of itself. And please I am not going to draw anyone any pictures. ;-)

1 Kings 16:25 But Omri wrought evil in the eyes of the LORD, and did worse than all that were before him.

From the above scripture we can see that some people are "worse sinners" than others.

In the Old Testament before and after the law was given by Moses God demanded the death penalty for some sins and not for others. God does not treat all sin the same in this life.

I think gluttony is a serious sin and if someone starts promoting Roman style food orgies I will stand against it. Every church fellowship I have ever attended has stood against sin and homosexuality was not the primary sin discussed. I attend churches where people don't need to be reminded that same sex relationships are perverted because that is a given.

Same sex relationships are being thrown in the face of Christians in some luke warm churches. I would urge anyone who is in a church that defends, promotes or attempts to justify this sin in anyway at all to get out of that church as quickly as they can.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Gluttony is more than a sin; it is a social mental disease. Gluttony attacks the very moral fibre of society. They destroy the temple of the God with food that is unhealthy, and in unhealthy amounts. They say they believe in God, but the god they believe in is false, food. They have therefore put another god before the true God. This is blasphemy and heresy.

Matt 22:37-38
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Gluttons have turned their backs on God; therefore, breaking what Jesus has said is the “first and greatest commandment.â€Â

Ok, so we are even

I wish to comment more on this reply to my previous post.

Replacing homosexuality with gluttony is cute but does not necessarily apply in my opinion. But if you feel that it applies the same, that's fine with me.

You have been looking for scripture proof that homosexuality is worse than gluttony. Gluttony vs. homosexuality as one being worse than the other is probably more in the eyes of the person than God. God hates all sin. I was attempting to show you why society protests homosexuality more than gluttony. From reading your post, there is probably nothing any one can say to change your mind. That's OK.

To me though gluttony is not usually a sin that happens all at once, it evolves into itself over time. It may start off with just a little over indulging and leads finally to more and more. I would venture to say that most gluttons do not make a conscious decision to be a glutton. However, homosexuality is willfully done from the beginning. Most of us overeat now and then during the holidays. Does that make us a glutton? To some degree maybe yes. But when the holidays or celebration is over we usually go back to our normal diet. If a person has a homosexual relationship once and repents, they to will be forgiven.

If some one continues in either behavior their judgment is in God’s hands not ours. That doesn’t mean that people are not going to have opinions of one being worse than another.

If I understand you correctly you are questioning why society judges homosexuality more harshly the gluttony.

I have a scenario for you. Let’s say you were in some foreign country. You are neither a homosexual nor a glutton. Terrorist have your daughter and are going to rape then kill her if you don’t perform one of the following. To save her you must:

Either be a glutton and stuff yourself on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years or
Perform homosexual acts for the two men on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.

Knowing that either one would save your daughter’s life and keep them from raping her, which one would you choose?
:D

So you are in agreement then that in the eyes of God and Biblical speaking, there is no difference between the two sins? I am not leading you into anything, just want a clarification.

And, would you take that as far to say someone who is a glutton would be as much of an abomination in God's eyes as a homosexual?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

quote by VaultZero4Me:

Maybe I am just missing the point at which it becomes higher higher up in the heirarchy than the sin of gluttony, because I surely do not see it. I just see it being established as a sin.

I’m SURE adultery is right up there with sodomy. Why exactly is it that you don’t want to have awareness of the sin of adultery compared to homosexual behavior? This would give you the leverage you need to expose the hypocrisy of those who condemn the one and ignore the other. I say, Go for it! :-D

OH, btw, I came up with some sign suggestions for you:

Adultery is as bad as Homosexuality!

Adultery spreads AIDS!

Adultery = the Disease link between Gays and Straights!

Or maybe something clever like:

Adultery: the Other Wife Meet
or:
Adultery, It’s not just for Sinners Anymore!

Oh well, I need practice. It's kind of a new idea.

Why are you so childish in your responses? Why don't you try to be a little more constructive and a little less juvenile? If you are not interested in the actual debate, why even post?

Many great philosophers believe that sarcasm hints at insecurity while debating. They believe that it is used to mask a weak argument. I don't know myself, I can be quite sarcastic, but it is good food for thought. ;)

 

[GraceBwithU]

vaultzero4me,

"If I understand you correctly you are questioning why society judges homosexuality more harshly the gluttony.

I have a scenario for you. Let’s say you were in some foreign country. You are neither a homosexual nor a glutton. Terrorist have your daughter and are going to rape then kill her if you don’t perform one of the following. To save her you must:

Either be a glutton and stuff yourself on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years or
Perform homosexual acts for the two men on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.

Knowing that either one would save your daughter’s life and keep them from raping her, which one would you choose?"

You didn't answer my question. :D

Another question.
Had you rather be murdered or robbed?

 

[unred typo]

quote by GraceBwithU:

Another question.
Had you rather be murdered or robbed?

LOL. Excellent question. If I had my 'druthers,' I'd rather be lied to or have someone bear false witness against me... :-D

by VaultZero4Me
Why are you so childish in your responses? Why don't you try to be a little more constructive and a little less juvenile? If you are not interested in the actual debate, why even post?

Many great philosophers believe that sarcasm hints at insecurity while debating. They believe that it is used to mask a weak argument. I don't know myself, I can be quite sarcastic, but it is good food for thought.

I don't know, Vault, pray for me. 8-)

 

[VaultZero4Me]

vaultzero4me,

"If I understand you correctly you are questioning why society judges homosexuality more harshly the gluttony.

I have a scenario for you. Let’s say you were in some foreign country. You are neither a homosexual nor a glutton. Terrorist have your daughter and are going to rape then kill her if you don’t perform one of the following. To save her you must:

Either be a glutton and stuff yourself on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years or
Perform homosexual acts for the two men on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.

Knowing that either one would save your daughter’s life and keep them from raping her, which one would you choose?"

You didn't answer my question. :D

Another question.
Had you rather be murdered or robbed?

I avoided it because I didn't want to have to tell you what I thought of your question. It is something I would expect to hear from a 14 year old juvenile, and not someone that I would assume to be an adult. Was I wrong to assume that I am debating with an adult?

It bears no meaning on the debate whatsoever and displays a pretty gross mentality.

Why would you even begin to think that had any bearing at all with what we are discussing? Is it a Christian thing to do to try and pin an argument down by depicting images of "terrorism" and "rape"?

I thought you were making some pretty good points up until you framed this question again. If you are just becoming sarcastic, then stop debating. I am addressing an issue here, keep the backyard antics in the tree house

 

[VaultZero4Me]

If I understand you correctly you are questioning why society judges homosexuality more harshly the gluttony.

That is my point. How you related it to you silly question, I am not sure.

My question would be, if there is no logical proof from scripture to support treating them differently, should a distinction be made? Shouldn't the gluttons be as shunned? Should anyone that is a known glutton be allowed to hold the pastor or minister position?

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me :
I thought you were making some pretty good points up until you framed this question again. If you are just becoming sarcastic, then stop debating. I am addressing an issue here, keep the backyard antics in the tree house

Did I note a bit of sarcasm in your post? Although I didn’t care for the rape/murder/sodomy question, I thought his question, asking your preference of being robbed or murdered, really nailed it. You are being a little childish in not answering that one at least, instead choosing to denigrate your opponent, imho. It was a very good way to illustrate the degree of importance of one sin over another.

quote by VaultZero4Me :
Why are you so childish in your responses? Why don't you try to be a little more constructive and a little less juvenile? If you are not interested in the actual debate, why even post?

Many great philosophers believe that sarcasm hints at insecurity while debating. They believe that it is used to mask a weak argument. I don't know myself, I can be quite sarcastic, but it is good food for thought.

What do your many great philosophers think about the tactic of disparaging one’s opponent instead of answering their questions?

In answer to your question, I assure you that I am very interested in the actual debate and although it was delivered with humor, I was quite serious in my suggestion to compare homosexuality with adultery, instead of gluttony. I am also quite mystified as to why you feel this would not be the best argument you have against those who would choose to condemn sodomy and yet ignore the adultery rampant, not just in society, but also in the church.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I am being disparaging by not letting someone frame the debate with nonsensical questions?

What does my preference of anything have to do with the debate? The question is on homosexuality versus gluttony. How does my preference of being murdered or robbed have anything at all to do with that?

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me :
I am being disparaging by not letting someone frame the debate with nonsensical questions?

Yes, you were being disparaging while not letting the debate be defined by those questions, instead of simply saying that you didn‘t see how they were relevant. Your answer was clearly a put-down. The debate wasn’t about the maturity level of the participants either, but you chose to make it so, rather than answer the questions.

quote by VaultZero4Me :
What does my preference of anything have to do with the debate? The question is on homosexuality versus gluttony. How does my preference of being murdered or robbed have anything at all to do with that?

The question, as to your preference of being robbed or murdered, showed rather graphically why the sin of murder is considered greater than the sin of robbery. Both crimes will make you guilty of sin but the murder one will get you a more severe sentence, both in the Bible and in society. Therefore, it can be considered that one sin does not equal another. That was one of the questions you framed in your debate. Here they are, in case you forgot:

quote by VaultZero4Me :
And what is the scriptural basis to view homosexuality as the real sin and gluttony as not?


Never said why one should be exalted, I said how can you scripturally support treating one sin differently than the other?

I did answer that but you slid right by my answer. Perhaps you missed it. Let me repost it here:

previous quote by VaultZero4Me :

Dut. 21:18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I am not seeing the parts you added into their. It plainly says to stone him, and that gluttony was part of his sin.

Unred, previously:
If I take your addition to it, I can see that you yourself admit that gluttony is only ‘part’ of his sin, where sodomy got a person stoned all by itself. Case closed, unless you have more verses up your sleeve. 8-)

 

[GraceBwithU]

That is my point. How you related it to you silly question, I am not sure.

My question would be, if there is no logical proof from scripture to support treating them differently, should a distinction be made? Shouldn't the gluttons be as shunned? Should anyone that is a known glutton be allowed to hold the pastor or minister position?

They were just questions about choosing one sin or another. And yes they were obviously right on the subject. Because by not answering and making the statements you did, you actually answered. This debate is really about why society thinks of homosexuality worse than gluttony. And you are part of that society. I tried giving you something biblical but you would not accept it. The questions were designed to get your opinion of which one you thought was the worst of the two. By not answering, you answered. You could not answer honestly because it would have destroyed your entire position in the debate. You didn’t like the question because it made you realize that you are just like the people you are attempting to judge.

I was only trying to show you that even though both are sins and God hates all sin, that we as humans do put one worse than the other sometimes. And quite frankly there is nothing wrong with doing that as long as we recognize all sins and repent if we commit one.

Earlier I gave you a scripture from the Bible that would make homosexuality worse in God’s eyes, but you played games with the post.

Gluttons have turned their backs on God; therefore, breaking what Jesus has said is the “first and greatest commandment.â€Â

This is not true and you know it. A lot of gluttons would love to quit eating so much. They know it’s wrong. They have not turned their back on God. They just have a terrible habit they can’t break. Just like some one that smokes. However, homosexuals are proud of there life style and even want to twist our laws into accepting their sin.

Matt 22:37-38
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Homosexuals do in fact turn their back on God and ignore his word. Therefore they have broken the first and greatest commandment. They don’t plan to change. They have convinced themselves it is right. That makes it worse.

Like I said before, if you would like to launch a movement to keep gluttons out of the pulpit, go for it. That would not offend me. Maybe we should. But not doing it presently doesn’t mean we should stop protesting homosexuals from being pastors. For one thing there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. So why allow them to be leaders over a Christian church?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Yes, you were being disparaging while not letting the debate be defined by those questions, instead of simply saying that you didn‘t see how they were relevant. Your answer was clearly a put-down. The debate wasn’t about the maturity level of the participants either, but you chose to make it so, rather than answer the questions.

They are not relevant because they are asking ME which I would prefer. The argument is about the scriptural basis to view gluttony less of a sin than homosexuality. The are not irrelevant because I saw so, they are irellevant because that have no bearing on the debate.

If you want to have a debate about who prefers murder versus robbery, than start a new thread. Is this not about same sex relations? Why do I even have to argue that position?

If I take your addition to it, I can see that you yourself admit that gluttony is only ‘part’ of his sin, where sodomy got a person stoned all by itself. Case closed, unless you have more verses up your sleeve. 8-)

Case isn't closed.

Sodom was one of your examples. I showed that homosexuality was only part of the cities sin as well.

Even if you bring more evidence from the OT, you have to do that and skip all the other commands that you yourself stated you do not follow (613 mitzvha - remember?)

It opens up a can of worms that complicate the issue even more.

Such as:

Sacrificing, dietary laws, stoning your children, worship on saturdays,no human statues, no shaving, write your own torah, no leaving the city on sabboth, burn incense everyday, slavery, and over 600 more. Should we go on?

They were just questions about choosing one sin or another. And yes they were obviously right on the subject. Because by not answering and making the statements you did, you actually answered.

The only answer I gave is that there is no correlation to the argument. What are you trying to read into it?

This debate is really about why society thinks of homosexuality worse than gluttony.

I am sorry, I did not realize the debate was about that now. At what point did it change to that, and move away from being about the scriptural evidence to hold homosexuality as the higher sin than gluttony. Should I start a new thread of my own so that I can keep the debate on its original course?

This is not true and you know it. A lot of gluttons would love to quit eating so much. They know it’s wrong. They have not turned their back on God. They just have a terrible habit they can’t break. Just like some one that smokes. However, homosexuals are proud of there life style and even want to twist our laws into accepting their sin.

That is a broad generalization there. In fact, it is so broad that is absolutely incorrect.

There are homosexuals in the Christian community who would like to stop having those impulses. Look at the Pastor in Houston who lost his church because of it. Are you saying he was proud of his lifestyle? What about all the people who go through the sessions to try to quite. How are they any different than a glutton who wants to stop shoving their mouth full of food? I would say to you that Gluttons have twisted the Christian law into their favor and find acceptance among christians, even though they are just as big of an abomination in the sight of God.

Homosexuals do in fact turn their back on God and ignore his word. Therefore they have broken the first and greatest commandment. They don’t plan to change. They have convinced themselves it is right. That makes it worse.

I would charge that to be true of a glutton as well. It is just not condemned as badly as it should be in the church, therefore they do not feel as bad for it. The other members are just enabling their sin.

For one thing there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian.

Based on the evidence, I would say the same is true for gluttons. There is not such a thing as a christian glutton. They are just accepted in the church because everyone blinds them self to the truth. They see it the way that makes them feel better about their self. But nevertheless, they are still just as lost as the homosexual Christian. They will both end up in the same place.

 

[GraceBwithU]

If I understand you correctly you are questioning why society judges homosexuality more harshly the gluttony.

That is my point. How you related it to you silly question, I am not sure.

My question would be, if there is no logical proof from scripture to support treating them differently, should a distinction be made? Shouldn't the gluttons be as shunned? Should anyone that is a known glutton be allowed to hold the pastor or minister position?

Make up your mind. Here you agreed to my statement concerning how society was judging homosexuals. Then you say how you believe is irrelevant. Do you not consider yourself part of society?

If you are determined to find flaw in everything anyone trys to give you as an answer to your question...Why ask it?