Satan: Christianity vs Judaism

[Vanguard]

Its my Sunday School children's teacher's belief based on scripture that your "lengthy, scholarly lesson" is full of typical liberal theology holes and scriptrue twisting.

There is a big difference between a children's Sunday School class and scholars talking about apologetics. That's like T-ball vs the Major League. Until you learn to read and understand verses in context, and you study ancient history, I would suggest you stick to teaching a children's Sunday School class...which is admirable.

 

[P31Woman]

There is a big difference between a children's Sunday School class and scholars talking about apologetics. That's like T-ball vs the Major League. Until you learn to read and understand verses in context, and you study ancient history, I would suggest you stick to "T-ball."

Mark 10:15

I tell you the truth, anyone who doesn't receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it." NIV




Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. NIV

 

[Vanguard]

There are some people in this world that are beyond reasoning. I have come to the conclusion that your vendetta is to make everything I say your personal mission to try and refute. You've yet to successfully do so.

I am not the topic. If you can't stay on topic, please leave.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[P31Woman]

1 John 3

7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one who commits[f] sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[g] because His[h] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin,[i] because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident. HCSB

Job 1

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Hast Thou not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? NASB

John 12

30 Jesus responded, “This voice came, not for Me, but for you. 31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 As for Me, if I am lifted up[i] from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.” 33 He said this to signify what kind of death He was about to die. HCSB

2 Timothy 2

26 Then they will know they had been held in a trap by the devil to do what he wanted them to do. But now they are able to get out of it. HCSB

God's word on satan.

God put a hedge around Job BEFORE satan asked permission to attack him.

 

[Ryan]

I was listening to Hank Hanegraaf the other day, and while I don't agree with many things he has to say, he made a statement that stood out for me. He said essentially we give the devil/satan/lucifer/accuser whatever you want to call him to much credit for the calamity or bad things that happen around us, or to us.

If you look closely at words before the flood in Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Not once is there anything about blaming satan for the deeds of men? I view satan as one who is holding a tiny snowball at the top of a hill. He's the one who gives the snowball a little push down the hill. Then what happens by itself? It gets bigger and bigger. That represents our sin. He just started the deception, but we went with it and got it bigger and bigger by our own doing. That's why he is known as the accuser.

In Jewish thought, satan stands before God accusing us of our sins. He's saying "Did you just see what Ryan did?" however; we have the mediator in 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," which seems to be supported here: Luke 22:31-32

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

 

[Guest]

There is a big difference between a children's Sunday School class and scholars talking about apologetics. That's like T-ball vs the Major League. Until you learn to read and understand verses in context, and you study ancient history, I would suggest you stick to teaching a children's Sunday School class...which is admirable.

There's also a difference between scholars talking about apologetics and Born Again Christians that have already come to Salvation. That's like T-ball vs the Major League. Until you learn to read and understand what Salvation and Faith is and study his Resurrections, I would suggest you stick to teaching a children's Sunday School class, which is admirable Vanguard.

 

[Vanguard]

Something has been brought to my attention. When replying with Scripture or any other biblical reference, please cite your source (KJV, NASB, Wikipedia, your pastor, etc.) so that we know where the information is coming from. I believe that is also part of the ToS (mods check me on that).

 

[P31Woman]

I'm still trying to figure out how Satan is doing all this stuff all over the earth when he isn't omnipresent (only God is). He can't be lying and deceiving in New York and California at the same time, much less anywhere overseas. Maybe he has access to Santa's sleigh and reindeer?

:toofunny

Chrisitan View: Doctrine of Satan

Satan is a Master Organizer

Eph 6.

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (NIV)


1 Timothy 4:1

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (NIV)

2 Corinthians 11

13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (NIV)

 

[gr8grace]

Ah, let me go over this part. Sorry for not understanding what you were asking earlier.

If God is all powerful and all knowing, and if the angels serve Him without free will, and if the Book of Revelation is taken literally, then yes, God is judging them and condemning them for following His orders. That's a lot of "if's." Let's start with what we know...

We learn that God is omnipotent from Revelation 19:6 KJV And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. The KJV wording has been revised in modern translations, but the descriptors mean the same thing.

We learn that God is omnipresent from none other than King David. He is asking where he can hide from God in Psalm 139:7-12, but answers himself (no where). Incidentally, in verse 8 the Hebrew word sheol (grave) is correctly used by the NASB. In the KJV, it uses the word hell, and is one of the many places that the KJV incorrectly translates sheol. Just a FYI.

God being omniscient is more difficult to prove and support. The Bible does tell us that God perceives all things, he knows the secrets of your heart, and no darkness can hide from Him. No creature is hidden from His sight, no question unanswerable. However, the Bible also supports the idea that God does not know which choices you will make, given free will. If you remember back in Genesis 22, Abraham was tested to see if he would follow God's orders to sacrifice his son Isaac. Right as Abraham was about to use his knife, God's angel calls out to him, stops him, and God goes on to say "...for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey, but did not know what choice he would make. This is another piece of evidence toward the proof of free will.

So, we have established the power, presence and knowledge of God.

What about the angels? All the angels mentioned in the Bible perform certain tasks. They are messengers, guardians, guides, accusers, and healers. Some do nothing more than sing and praise God by His throne. Whatever the task, they are empowered through God, and were created for a specific purpose. They obey God, as evident by Psalm 103:20 NASB. There is no verse that states whether or not angels have free will, although plenty of verses imply both, depending on what part of the Bible you are reading. In the OT, absolutely not. In the NT, absolutely! Satan could not wage his war and convince 1/3 of the angels to follow him against God unless they had free will to choose sides. That is, of course, if the Book of Revelation is a literal account.

So, the answer to your question (and I apologize for the lengthy, scholarly lesson) is that it all hinges on the Book of Revelation and how it is to be received. The entire book is prophetic; an account of visions and dreams of the future that John had, while he was in exile on the island of Patmos. This raises the question of John's mental state. Was he delusional? Was he suffering from malnutrition? Sleep deprivation? Bad water? Sickness? Torture? We don't know because the Bible doesn't say.

Numerous theories and interpretations have developed over Revelation. It would seem that IF Revelation is taken literally, then God is not judging Satan and the angels unjustly because they rebelled against Him. That is a very big if...and contradicts the OT teachings and several angelology positions.





Now for my personal opinion about something, and no this is not supported directly by scripture. In studying human psychology, we don't like to be responsible for our actions and poor choices. We want to place blame on any number of things other than ourselves. Very few people have the courage to own up to their mistakes. Pride gets in our way. Envy, lust, hate, etc. It is far easier to not care, do wicked things, and be a sinner than it is to walk the straight and narrow. Whether it is 1 AD or 2013 AD, people want to point the finger at someone, or something, other than themselves. Satan becomes Public Enemy #1 because of it. They gave the people a scapegoat.

Moses certainly did not blame anyone or anything other than the Hebrew people and the choices they made in Exodus chapter 32.

Hi Van,

I just wanted to respond to your last paragraph in your statement. I believe your last paragraph sums up your whole problem with the Idea of Satan. If you would apply that logic to how satan operates a lot of your Questions would be answered. Just a personal thought.

I do believe Satan gets blamed for a lot of things that he should not be blamed for and does not get blamed for a lot of things he should get the blame for.

 

[Deborah13]

.QUOTE=Vanguard;754984] What about the angels? All the angels mentioned in the Bible perform certain tasks. They are messengers, guardians, guides, accusers, and healers. Some do nothing more than sing and praise God by His throne. Whatever the task, they are empowered through God, and were created for a specific purpose. They obey God, as evident by Psalm 103:20 NASB. There is no verse that states whether or not angels have free will, although plenty of verses imply both, depending on what part of the Bible you are reading. In the OT, absolutely not. In the NT, absolutely! Satan could not wage his war and convince 1/3 of the angels to follow him against God unless they had free will to choose sides. That is, of course, if the Book of Revelation is a literal account. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you on the 2 O's expect I do believe the third is correct as well.

I do not think Psalm 103 proves any point about ALL the angels obeying God. All of the Lord's creation is to bless Him. David blesses Him. He talks about the children who obey in the verses before v20. I find it interesting that he then describes the angels and the host as those who obey Him. Taking the whole Psalm in context it could imply that ALL do not.

If it hinges on Revelation being literal then it should also hinge on 2 Peter 2:4 being literal or not.

 

[Webb]

I'm still trying to figure out how Satan is doing all this stuff all over the earth when he isn't omnipresent (only God is). He can't be lying and deceiving in New York and California at the same time, much less anywhere overseas. Maybe he has access to Santa's sleigh and reindeer?

:toofunny

Satan is powerful but not omnipotent as God as he could (for example) only do to Job as God allowed. Satan is not omnipresent as God for he has no power or presense in hades, as only God has, Ps.139. Yet when this earth and atmosphere is considered he has perhaps been granted much if not complete omnipresence: he is "the god of this world" II Cor.4:4; he is "the prince of the powers of the air" Eph.2:2; he is the prince of this world" Jn.12:31; he is the ruler of darkness, Eph.6:12 and; he is the "great dragon" "which deceiveth the whole world" Rev.12:9. Being eventually cast into "eternal fire" especially prepared for him, Matt.25:41, he will not have presence in heaven. As an old Marine, I've met him every where I've been.

 

[Deborah13]

Luke 8:30-31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “(A)Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into (B)the abyss.

Could it be possible that people could refer to satan in a generic term. There are many who do his bidding. They have marching orders too I would think.

 

[gr8grace]

Luke 8:30-31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “(A)Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into (B)the abyss.

Could it be possible that people could refer to satan in a generic term. There are many who do his bidding. They have marching orders too I would think.

Hi Deb,

I think you hit on a very interesting point!

I think we see Gods sense of humor in not really knowing Satans true name! Satan being the most arrogant and prideful creature ever created and wants the whole world to worship him, and God has hid his True name from us!

 

[Vanguard]

Luke 8:30-31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “(A)Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into (B)the abyss.

Could it be possible that people could refer to satan in a generic term. There are many who do his bidding. They have marching orders too I would think.

One of my favorite stories, and a large part of why Catholics believe in possession and exorcism. If you continue reading the rest of that chapter, the demons (the KJV uses devils...interesting that it is plural...is there more than 1 satan?) begged not to be sent to the abyss (does not say sheol or hades) and had to ask for Jesus' permission before they could do anything, to include leaving the man and going into the swine. Even in possession they are subject to God's will.

The swine ran into the water and drowned. Does that mean that demons/devils can drown, even though they are not a physical being? Just a thought.

 

[Webb]

Another thought--are there demons today or were they only during the days of Jesus and His apostles and for a definite purpose?

 

[n2thelight]

You try and answer an apologetic question based off an anonymous author's opinion, from a 1999 website that is about playing bible games? No offense but uh...nevermind, I'm not even going to go there.

Didn't try to answer I did,and it's not about a game........Let me ask you a question,where were you before birth??

Also do you think satan was always evil,if not what was his role before becoming that way?

 

[n2thelight]

Satan is powerful but not omnipotent as God as he could (for example) only do to Job as God allowed. Satan is not omnipresent as God for he has no power or presense in hades, as only God has, Ps.139. Yet when this earth and atmosphere is considered he has perhaps been granted much if not complete omnipresence: he is "the god of this world" II Cor.4:4; he is "the prince of the powers of the air" Eph.2:2; he is the prince of this world" Jn.12:31; he is the ruler of darkness, Eph.6:12 and; he is the "great dragon" "which deceiveth the whole world" Rev.12:9. Being eventually cast into "eternal fire" especially prepared for him, Matt.25:41, he will not have presence in heaven. As an old Marine, I've met him every where I've been.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

 

[Webb]

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

And?

 

[Vanguard]

Also do you think satan was always evil,if not what was his role before becoming that way?

Go back and read the OP on the first page and pay attention to the section under Judaism.