Satan: Christianity vs Judaism

[VirginShallConceive]

Pride also means rejection of authority. Pride means vanity, self-justification, an inflated concept of self, the exaggeration of one’s own importance. The complex of mental attitude sins in motivational arrogance includes pride, bitterness, jealousy, hatred, revenge, guilt, fear, worry, and so on. Arrogance, pride, conceit, is the original sin of the greatest genius creature of all time. We call him Satan or the devil, but his original name was son of the morning, Heylel. He was the first creature to enter into this sin. In fact, it is the original sin found in the fallen angels in the pre-historic angelic conflict. It is the one sin that motivated Satan to rebel. It is the one sin that motivated the fallen angels to also rebel. It is the one sin that motivated the woman in the garden to sin.

Well, all I know is this:

I, myself, have been guilty of some pride. I have also come into contact with hot items, and they have caused me temporary pain. This is enough for me to strive to avoid burning in Hell . . . for Eternity. Any being smarter than me should be able to explore this idea deeper than I can. In my opinion, eternal suffering out-trumps an infinite amount of pride, and that's with assuming that a being with an infinite amount of pride actually exists. I introduced "infinite amount of pride" into the conversation just to set an example to make a point. Any degree of pride less than "infinite" only makes the notion that much more unbelievable.

 

[Vanguard]

First let me say that I agree that 'Satan' is the accuser, "the accuser of the brotheren" as well as the nonbeliever.


1. God is the only god, who is all powerful.
2. To give Satan power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1.

3. To give man power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1 ?

By this logic man does not operate in free will but only doing what God wills him to do.....

Humans aren't divine, angelic or demonic beings. We are physical, have a short lifespan, and will be judged according to our deeds (choices and actions) after the resurrections that the Book of Revelation speaks of. If we did not have free will, and God controlled our choices and actions, there would not be a need for the judgment, as He would be judging Himself.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

If we did not have free will, and God controlled our choices and actions, there would not be a need for the judgment, as He would be judging Himself.

Ooooooooooooooooooooh . . . that is so good. :bounce

 

[Vanguard]

Ooooooooooooooooooooh . . . that is so good. :bounce

People tend to overlook the details in Revelation!

 

[Deborah13]

Humans aren't divine, angelic or demonic beings. We are physical, have a short lifespan, and will be judged according to our deeds (choices and actions) after the resurrections that the Book of Revelation speaks of. If we did not have free will, and God controlled our choices and actions, there would not be a need for the judgment, as He would be judging Himself.

I agree.

However, can you address the statement that I made as to the logic as it relates to the statement that you made about Satan.

And relate that to John 16:8-... - where we can have confidences that Satan will be judged therefore how can God judge Satan if he was only obeying God's instructions to him. Wouldn't God be judging Himself?

 

[gr8grace]

Well, all I know is this:

I, myself, have been guilty of some pride. I have also come into contact with hot items, and they have caused me temporary pain. This is enough for me to strive to avoid burning in Hell . . . for Eternity. Any being smarter than me should be able to explore this idea deeper than I can. In my opinion, eternal suffering out-trumps an infinite amount of pride, and that's with assuming that a being with an infinite amount of pride actually exists. I introduced "infinite amount of pride" into the conversation just to set an example to make a point. Any degree of pride less than "infinite" only makes the notion that much more unbelievable.

I completely agree with your logic, and think that way myself. but in gods word we see that pride can veil truth to the extent that even the most intelligent will not see it. To tell you the truth I do not see how it is possible either(with Satan)! But in Faith I believe what God says about pride and arrogance and it will blind the best of us.

I think with Gods logic we can conclude this: with a little bit of pride we can veil an "infinite amount of Truth"

 

[Deborah13]

Hi, Jarrod.

One thing that I think is important to watch out for is over-analyzing and digging too deep, when there is a huge reality that looms in the opposite direction of what you're saying. You have this character in your mind called Satan. You have him being extremely deceptive. Then, you turn around in the next breath and tell us things about him that, if true, would make him appear as extremely retarded. You don't present Satan as more powerful than God, but you do present him as half-way there. You present him like this invisible, sneaky deceiver who somehow infiltrates the minds of people, but somehow, he can't read your "eye opening" post and learn from it. It's like you have the Bible, and you have it all figured out, but somehow Satan just isn't smart enough to get the big picture, even though he has supposedly spent who knows how much time in the actual presence of God. I'm not talking about how Satan got this funny feeling and started speaking in tongues, I'm talking about Satan having eons worth of direct conversations with God, or so they say.

But hey, thanks to you, we have Satan's entire strategy mapped out for us in post #46.

It isn't that he isn't smart enough. He is stiff-necked, he keeps thinking he can change what God has said. Total rebellion can blind anyone, even an angel who has become a dragon.

He knows that at the cross he lost his authority in this world but (maybe he thinks that if he can keep enough men blinded to this fact that he can still get it back.) just my thoughts in the ().

 

[Vanguard]

However, can you address the statement that I made as to the logic as it relates to the statement that you made about Satan.

And relate that to John 16:8-... - where we can have confidences that Satan will be judged therefore how can God judge Satan if he was only obeying God's instructions to him. Wouldn't God be judging Himself?

Let me review...

First let me say that I agree that 'Satan' is the accuser, "the accuser of the brotheren" as well as the nonbeliever.


1. God is the only god, who is all powerful.
2. To give Satan power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1.

3. To give man power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1 ?

By this logic man does not operate in free will but only doing what God wills him to do...

I think I see what you're asking.

Humans weren't given power, we could never be all powerful, and we could never rise to the status of a god. We are mortals, have a body of flesh and blood, we age, and we die. We don't have the power to operate independently of God, we have the freedom of choice as to whether or not we follow God. That is what free will is all about. We have a choice. Our choices will be judged after the resurrections. Some will go on to paradise, others will be thrown into the lake of fire. We operate under a different set of rules vs. what the angels have. They were created by God to serve a specific task. We weren't.

In John 16:8 NASB, Jesus is telling the disciples that His death is necessary, and the promise of the Holy Spirit is made to them. Even though Jesus is to be called back to God, the Holy Spirit will come down to earth as the Helper, and will convict those who do not live in righteousness. They (humans) have a choice whether or not to live in sin. It is based upon those choices that they will be judged. Satan and the other angels don't have a choice as they are subject to God's will, and can't act without His permission.

I hope that addressed your questions. If not, please clarify what you are asking.

 

[Vanguard]

Here's the $1,000,000 bonus question: in the OT, Satan plays a very small role. He is portrayed as the accuser, and on occasion the adversary (to humans, not God). How is it he goes from a very small role to the arch enemy of Jesus in the NT? What was the catalyst that made him be the embodiment of evil?

Here's a further thought...if God is all powerful and all knowing, why does He allow Satan and 1/3 of His angels to rebel, when they don't have free will or the nature to rebel, to begin with? Perhaps the Book of Revelation, which is prophetic and describes visions/dreams of the future, is a metaphor for something else?

Grab some aspirin...this may cause a headache!

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Here's the $1,000,000 bonus question: in the OT, Satan plays a very small role. He is portrayed as the accuser, and on occasion the adversary (to humans, not God). How is it he goes from a very small role to the arch enemy of Jesus in the NT? What was the catalyst that made him be the embodiment of evil?

Allow me to answer that.

I can't pinpoint what the initial catalyst was, but I can say that his role as "The Accuser" evolved into "Arch Enemy of Jesus" by way of artificial selection. :yes

 

[Deborah13]

Let me review...



I think I see what you're asking.

Humans weren't given power, we could never be all powerful, and we could never rise to the status of a god. We are mortals, have a body of flesh and blood, we age, and we die. We don't have the power to operate independently of God, we have the freedom of choice as to whether or not we follow God. That is what free will is all about. We have a choice. Our choices will be judged after the resurrections. Some will go on to paradise, others will be thrown into the lake of fire. We operate under a different set of rules vs. what the angels have. They were created by God to serve a specific task. We weren't.

In John 16:8 NASB, Jesus is telling the disciples that His death is necessary, and the promise of the Holy Spirit is made to them. Even though Jesus is to be called back to God, the Holy Spirit will come down to earth as the Helper, and will convict those who do not live in righteousness. They (humans) have a choice whether or not to live in sin. It is based upon those choices that they will be judged. Satan and the other angels don't have a choice as they are subject to God's will, and can't act without His permission.

I hope that addressed your questions. If not, please clarify what you are asking.

You did part of it. However it's my fault for not being clearer.

How can God judge the dragon and his angels, condemning them to the lake of fire if He God were making them do what they do, wouldn't He be judging them for what He did?

 

[P31Woman]

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

Christians won't be judged. We will attend an awards ceremoney.

 

[Deborah13]

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

Christians won't be judged. We will attend an awards ceremoney.

Amen to that!

 

[n2thelight]

How can God judge the dragon and his angels, condemning them to the lake of fire if He God were making them do what they do, wouldn't He be judging them for what He did?

satan and his angels were judged before this age that we are in now

The first earth age was the time spoken of in Genesis 1:1, II Peter 3, and Jeremiah 4:18 to the end of the chapter.

Mankind did not exist in the flesh, however the animal world did. It was far more expanded then what is common in this earth age. An example of this is in the elephant world, where there are three known species existing today, living in the world. In the first earth age, there were over thirty types that have been dug up.

All souls were created in the first earth age, and lived in what we call their soul bodies. The reason that we find no fossils today dating back beyond 6,000 to 10,000 years is because man did not exist in the flesh body. All souls were in existence then.

It was also in the first earth age that Satan, the most beautiful of all angels allowed his pride to overcome him, and the fall, of not only Satan came, but one third of all souls that existed then also fell.
This brought about the Fall of Satan, and the end of the first age. It is because of that fall, or "toho va boho" the destruction, where by all animals and living forms on earth came to an end.

8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain: KJV-- confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) naught, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV-- emptiness, void.

Satan who was called Lucifer back then was a good guy and had great responsibilities given to him by God. But one day that all changed.

Isaiah 14:12-17
V12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The name 'Lucifer' is Strong's 1966 and means heylel (hay-lale'); from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star.

Strong's number 1984 is a primitive root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify.

The fall from heaven this is talking about happened in the first earth age. Lucifer use to be Satan's name but it was changed by God. For more information on his names see our Other names for Satan study. Lucifer is the fake morning star, Jesus Christ is the true morning Star.

 

[Vanguard]

satan and his angels were judged before this age that we are in now

The first earth age was the time spoken of in Genesis 1:1, II Peter 3, and Jeremiah 4:18 to the end of the chapter.

Mankind did not exist in the flesh, however the animal world did. It was far more expanded then what is common in this earth age. An example of this is in the elephant world, where there are three known species existing today, living in the world. In the first earth age, there were over thirty types that have been dug up.

All souls were created in the first earth age, and lived in what we call their soul bodies. The reason that we find no fossils today dating back beyond 6,000 to 10,000 years is because man did not exist in the flesh body. All souls were in existence then.

Lucifer use to be Satan's name but it was changed by God.

Etc., etc.

Anyone reading all of that please understand it is HIGHLY opinionated and subjective, and certainly not based on any scripture I have ever read.

Please cite your sources (and don't say the Bible because...no, not even close).

 

[n2thelight]

Believe what yu will.........My bad on the source

http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/rebellionofsatan.htm

 

[Vanguard]

You did part of it. However it's my fault for not being clearer.

How can God judge the dragon and his angels, condemning them to the lake of fire if He God were making them do what they do, wouldn't He be judging them for what He did?

Ah, let me go over this part. Sorry for not understanding what you were asking earlier.

If God is all powerful and all knowing, and if the angels serve Him without free will, and if the Book of Revelation is taken literally, then yes, God is judging them and condemning them for following His orders. That's a lot of "if's." Let's start with what we know...

We learn that God is omnipotent from Revelation 19:6 KJV And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. The KJV wording has been revised in modern translations, but the descriptors mean the same thing.

We learn that God is omnipresent from none other than King David. He is asking where he can hide from God in Psalm 139:7-12, but answers himself (no where). Incidentally, in verse 8 the Hebrew word sheol (grave) is correctly used by the NASB. In the KJV, it uses the word hell, and is one of the many places that the KJV incorrectly translates sheol. Just a FYI.

God being omniscient is more difficult to prove and support. The Bible does tell us that God perceives all things, he knows the secrets of your heart, and no darkness can hide from Him. No creature is hidden from His sight, no question unanswerable. However, the Bible also supports the idea that God does not know which choices you will make, given free will. If you remember back in Genesis 22, Abraham was tested to see if he would follow God's orders to sacrifice his son Isaac. Right as Abraham was about to use his knife, God's angel calls out to him, stops him, and God goes on to say "...for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey, but did not know what choice he would make. This is another piece of evidence toward the proof of free will.

So, we have established the power, presence and knowledge of God.

What about the angels? All the angels mentioned in the Bible perform certain tasks. They are messengers, guardians, guides, accusers, and healers. Some do nothing more than sing and praise God by His throne. Whatever the task, they are empowered through God, and were created for a specific purpose. They obey God, as evident by Psalm 103:20 NASB. There is no verse that states whether or not angels have free will, although plenty of verses imply both, depending on what part of the Bible you are reading. In the OT, absolutely not. In the NT, absolutely! Satan could not wage his war and convince 1/3 of the angels to follow him against God unless they had free will to choose sides. That is, of course, if the Book of Revelation is a literal account.

So, the answer to your question (and I apologize for the lengthy, scholarly lesson) is that it all hinges on the Book of Revelation and how it is to be received. The entire book is prophetic; an account of visions and dreams of the future that John had, while he was in exile on the island of Patmos. This raises the question of John's mental state. Was he delusional? Was he suffering from malnutrition? Sleep deprivation? Bad water? Sickness? Torture? We don't know because the Bible doesn't say.

Numerous theories and interpretations have developed over Revelation. It would seem that IF Revelation is taken literally, then God is not judging Satan and the angels unjustly because they rebelled against Him. That is a very big if...and contradicts the OT teachings and several angelology positions.





Now for my personal opinion about something, and no this is not supported directly by scripture. In studying human psychology, we don't like to be responsible for our actions and poor choices. We want to place blame on any number of things other than ourselves. Very few people have the courage to own up to their mistakes. Pride gets in our way. Envy, lust, hate, etc. It is far easier to not care, do wicked things, and be a sinner than it is to walk the straight and narrow. Whether it is 1 AD or 2013 AD, people want to point the finger at someone, or something, other than themselves. Satan becomes Public Enemy #1 because of it. They gave the people a scapegoat.

Moses certainly did not blame anyone or anything other than the Hebrew people and the choices they made in Exodus chapter 32.

 

[Vanguard]

http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/rebellionofsatan.htm

You try and answer an apologetic question based off an anonymous author's opinion, from a 1999 website that is about playing bible games? No offense but uh...nevermind, I'm not even going to go there.

 

[P31Woman]

Ah, let me go over this part. Sorry for not understanding what you were asking earlier.

If God is all powerful and all knowing, and if the angels serve Him without free will, and if the Book of Revelation is taken literally, then yes, God is judging them and condemning them for following His orders. That's a lot of "if's." Let's start with what we know...

We learn that God isomnipotent from Revelation 19:6 KJV And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. The KJV wording has been revised in modern translations, but the descriptors mean the same thing.

We learn that God is omnipresent from none other than King David. He is asking where he can hide from God in Psalm 139:7-12, but answers himself (no where). Incidentally, in verse 8 the Hebrew word sheol (grave) is correctly used by the NASB. In the KJV, it uses the word hell, and is one of the many places that the KJV incorrectly translates sheol. Just a FYI.

God being omniscient is more difficult to prove and support. The Bible does tell us that God perceives all things, he knows the secrets of your heart, and no darkness can hide from Him. No creature is hidden from His sight, no question unanswerable. However, the Bible also supports the idea that God does not know which choices you will make, given free will. If you remember back in Genesis 22, Abraham was tested to see if he would follow God's orders to sacrifice his son Isaac. Right as Abraham was about to use his knife, God's angel calls out to him, stops him, and God goes on to say "...for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey, but did not know what choice he would make. This is another piece of evidence toward the proof of free will.

So, we have established the power, presence and knowledge of God.

What about the angels? All the angels mentioned in the Bible perform certain tasks. They are messengers, guardians, guides, accusers, and healers. Some do nothing more than sing and praise God by His throne. Whatever the task, they are empowered through God, and were created for a specific purpose. They obey God, as evident by Psalm 103:20 NASB. There is no verse that states whether or not angels have free will, although plenty of verses imply both, depending on what part of the Bible you are reading. In the OT, absolutely not. In the NT, absolutely! Satan could not wage his war and convince 1/3 of the angels to follow him against God unless they had free will to choose sides. That is, of course, if the Book of Revelation is a literal account.

So, the answer to your question (and I apologize for the lengthy, scholarly lesson) is that it all hinges on the Book of Revelation and how it is to be received. The entire book is prophetic; an account of visions and dreams of the future that John had, while he was in exile on the island of Patmos. This raises the question of John's mental state. Was he delusional? Was he suffering from malnutrition? Sleep deprivation? Bad water? Sickness? Torture? We don't know because the Bible doesn't say.

Numerous theories and interpretations have developed over Revelation. It would seem that IF Revelation is taken literally, then God is not judging Satan and the angels unjustly because they rebelled against Him. That is a very big if...and contradicts the OT teachings and several angelology positions.





Now for my personal opinion about something, and no this is not supported directly by scripture. In studying human psychology, we don't like to be responsible for our actions and poor choices. We want to place blame on any number of things other than ourselves. Very few people have the courage to own up to their mistakes. Pride gets in our way. Envy, lust, hate, etc. It is far easier to not care, do wicked things, and be a sinner than it is to walk the straight and narrow. Whether it is 1 AD or 2013 AD, people want to point the finger at someone, or something, other than themselves. Satan becomes Public Enemy #1 because of it. They gave the people a scapegoat.

Moses certainly did not blame anyone or anything other than the Hebrew people and the choices they made in Exodus chapter 32.

We begin to learn of God's omnipotence in Gensis. Job, Pslams, Daniel, John, Hebrews, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Timothy all teach us the omnipotence of God.

We learn of God's omnipresence beginning in the book of Job and then in Pslams, Proverbs, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Matthew, Colossians, Isaiah and Hebrews.

From equipt.org

Omniscience: Does God Know All Things?

OMNISCIENCE OF GOD- Introduction
Does God know everything? It’s not too surprising to hear non-Christians and even cultists deny that God is omniscient. But what is surprising is that a growing number of theologians today who profess to be evangelicals also deny it. Of course the real question is: What does the Bible say?
OMNISCIENCE OF GOD- God Knows Everything
The Bible repeatedly tells us that God knows everything. His knowledge, in fact, is “perfect [Job 37:16] and is “beyond measure” [Psa. 147:5]. He sees every move we make, He knows the innermost thoughts of our hearts and He even knows what we are going to say before we say it [1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9; Psa. 139:1-6; Jer. 17:10; Heb. 4:12-13]. Unlike the false gods of our time, the Lord knows everything: Even what’s going to happen in the future [Isa. 41:21-24; 42:9; 44:7]. Jesus, interestingly enough, also tells us that our heavenly Father numbers the very hairs on our head. By the way, it’s interesting to note that God actually revealed to Isaiah the name of Cyrus even before he was actually born — in fact, one century before he was born. Cyrus, of course, was the king who returned the Jews to their homeland after the Babylonian exile [Isa. 44:28-45:1].
OMNISCIENCE OF GOD- Scripture Twisting
You know as Matthew 11 points out, God even knows what people would have done if their circumstances had been different [Matt. 11:21]. Well despite the evidence, some people today still deny that the Bible teaches that God is omniscient or all-knowing. As evidence they point out silly little things like in Genesis where God had to look for Adam in the Garden of Eden, or later on in the book of Genesis [Gen. 3:9-13] they point out that God had to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to find out how bad their sin actually was [Gen. 18:20-21]. Well, it should go without saying that these passages don’t indicate, by any stretch of the imagination, that God doesn’t know everything. In fact, they’re not even very difficult to understand. You see, as a parent I often ask my kids where they are or what they’ve done, even when I already know, because I want them to face up to what they did wrong. God does the very same thing with us.
OMNISCIENCE OF GOD- We Can Rest in Him
Since God knows everything, we can have confidence in Him and in His promises — not only for peace in this life, but an eternity of joy in the life to come. And aren’t you glad that he knows you, that He knit you together in your mother’s womb, that he fashioned you and knows exactly what you are designed to do — that all the days ordained for you are written in his book even before one of them came to be? Yes my friend, God does know all things.On the Omniscience of God, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff. end of copy

Its my Sunday School children's teacher's belief based on scripture that your "lengthy, scholarly lesson" is full of typical liberal theology holes and scriptrue twisting.

 

[P31Woman]

1 John 3

7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one who commits[f] sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[g] because His[h] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin,[i] because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident. HCSB

Job 1

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Hast Thou not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? NASB

John 12

30 Jesus responded, “This voice came, not for Me, but for you. 31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 As for Me, if I am lifted up[i] from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.” 33 He said this to signify what kind of death He was about to die. HCSB

.2 Timothy 2

26 Then they will know they had been held in a trap by the devil to do what he wanted them to do. But now they are able to get out of it. HCSB