Satan's Great Lie

[Charlotte]

Bibleberean, StoveBolts,


One thing you have to remember is, before the crucifixion of Jesus the Israelites were under the law and their salvation was dependant on works. Ours is not. Therefore, there is a difference in the, then, and now. All of the verses you referred to in John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and even some in the epistles of James, Peter, and John, were to lawkeepers.

Charlotte

 

[Drew]

It is possible that some of us agree without really realizing it. The problem might be imprecise terminology. Let me try to be clear about my position.

I reject what I will call "strong causal sovereignty". Now please read exactly how I define this term:

"God is a fully sufficient determining (causal) agent in respect to any and all events (including human decisions). In other words, no event occurs which is not directly caused by God and God alone."

This form of sovereignty seems both unbiblical to me and also unintelligible (does not make sense) since it seems obvious that one cannot justly be punished (e.g. sent to Hell) for actions that one has no control over.

I do accept a form of sovereignty I will call "will fulfillment sovereignty". Under this form of sovereignty, God's intentions and will are always fulfilled - God makes sure that this will happen, but he does not need to totally make man into a puppet in order to do this.

As you might expect, I believe that man has some "free will" and by "free will", I mean that man has some role in determining "how events in the world unfold", such that man is not compelled by any external force (such as God) in the exercise of such freedom. Now this "free will" may be rather limited, but it is indeed truly free in the sense of not being "tinkered with" by God.

Before we get into "verse wars", I want to point out something that I think is very significant and that often gets overlooked in these discussions. Consider the following (Ephesians 1:11, NIV):

"In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"

We need to understand that the phrase "him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" can be interpreted in a "strong causal sovereignty" sense or in a "will fulfillment sovereignty" sense. It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that "working out everything" means that God fulfills his purposes without necessarily causing every single human decision. To insist that this verse mandates strong causal sovereignty is to bring such an interpretation to the text.

 

[Drew]

Only those who give God their whole hearts, put His will ahead of their own wants and desires, obey Him and turn away from sin will be enabled by God to understand His truth in the here and now.

The majority will not figure it out. Their hearts are far from God. They are not listening to the Holy Spirit so they are listening to “the voice of reason†Satan. The ruler of this world until Christ’s return.

This is classic "argument by suggesting that those who differ with you have some moral defect". This is simply not legitimate debate.

God really is in control of everything and everybody. We are not mindless automatons as some would claim. It is far more complicated than that.

You need to provide an actual explanation of how this can be possible given the following: If God is a fully sufficient causal force in respect to every action whatsover (including all actions of human beings) then, by the very meaning of the concepts involved, man must essentially be an automaton. Now I will qualify what I have just written in the light of your following statement:

Most of us have heard before that God is everywhere, what very few seem to realize is that God is everything! That’s right everything! Every atom, every molecule, every living thing! He is the Earth, Air, Water and Fire. The very elements themselves! He is the Earth and all things in it!

The above material strikes me as being rather obviously inconsistent with almost all Christian theology I am acquainted with. That doesn't make the above claim incorrect, I will admit. Most Christians draw a conceptual distinction between God and his created order - God made the universe, but the universe is not really "part" of God. However, I am willing to listen to more about this idea.

If this idea were correct, it would resolve what I see as the inconsistency of your original claim. After all, if we are "part of" God, then anything we do is effectively something that God does, so sovereignty and "choice" (to use your term) can peacefully co-exist.

All sixteen to twenty universes that we know of and much, much more.

What? 16 to 20 universes? I assume that you have credible (and I emphasize credible) sources to back this up.

 

[cj]

Drew, folks like Litebeam are who believers are warned of in the scriptures.

These are people who prey on the young ones in faith. They have collected various bits and pieces of knowledge and out of this have developed false doctrines and teachings. Ulitimately, their desire is to make a name for themselves (such as we see Litebeam "inviting" you to come to his website,.... a classic ploy that expose prideful vanity. Believers don't tell people to come to them, we go to them).

Scriptures also tell us very clearly that we should have nothing to do with such people, and with good reason, for they are simply attempting to spread a false gospel which comes from the mouth of God's adversary himself.

Do not for a moment think that you are beyond being corrupted by the evil one, for he is far more convincing than we realize. You might think that in the course of conversation you accept nothing from what the enemy says, but the truth is, he knows you very well and thus knows what subtle thought he can plant in your mind.

There is a good reason why God instructed the Nazarite to not touch that which was dead. God said that by just being touched by the dead this one would become corrupted.

It is so important that we, as believers, understand our enemy and understand the principles behind God's instructions, whether from the OT or the NT, as the principle, like God, is timeless.

As an example I will highlight one of Litebeam's lies below.....

What I am saying is that God calls everyone but only the few are enabled to respond to Him fully in the here and now. God is The Absolute Sovereign Lord Of All Creation, past, present and future. Everything is transpiring according to His will.

"...... but only the few are enabled to respond to Him fully in the here and now."

This is speaking from the deepest parts of the pit of hell.

God's "call" is His full enablment/empowerment, and to say otherwise is to be exposed as ignorant of the truth contained in scriptures, an worse, to be exposed as anti-Christ.

Christ is God as our empowerment. Christ is not a portion of God, He is fully God,.... and this fully God Christ comes into a believers spirit upon redemption, empowering this person with resurrection life and thus fully regenerating the spirit of this person.

Christ, God Himself in all His authority, power, and might, dwells in a believer's regenerated spirit, and thus the entire God is available to those who believer, forever and ever.

This is what is meant in the ripping open of the curtain that separated God from man in the temple.

When Jesus died the temple curtain was torn open from top to bottom, thus opening the way to any man, through the blood of Christ, to come forward boldly to God at any time.

Litebeam is serving God's enemy with the speaking above.



Tell me, if Satan stood before you would you carry on a conversation with this dispiser of the God whom you love?


Forgive me if this sounds like overly strong speaking on my part, but Litebeam has openly shown contempt for any reasonable dialogue regarding these things, and in doing so is continuing to perpetuate wickedness by attempting to subtly plant the seeds of corruption in the minds of the weak.

Follow the pattern of the apostles, follow the pattern of our Lord, rebuke and reject this wickedness for what it is, and in doing so, save ourselves and others from its curse.

I pray you understand what I'm saying, in the spirit.



In love,
cj

 

[Charlotte]

What I am saying is that God calls everyone but only the few are enabled to respond to Him fully in the here and now. God is The Absolute Sovereign Lord Of All Creation, past, present and future. Everything is transpiring according to His will.

cj,

You used the above quote to show that Litebeam speaks things of the Devil?

Didn't Jesus say "many are called but few are chosen". Also, didn't Jesus tell His disciples that the "truth was given to them to understand but to the rest it was not given? Isn't this what Litebeam was saying? So how can this be of the Devil if Jesus spoke these same words? This sounds like blasphemy to me. This is what the pharisees said of Jesus then and you just repeated the same thing.

Would you please show me where Litebeam spoke wickedness? Show me in scripture where Litebeam is speaking falsehood. Prove to me the things he said were wrong, using scripture to back you up.

Charlotte

 

[bibleberean]

Man had a Choice before the cross and he has a choice after the cross.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Those who choose to believe and embrace lies will experience the wrath of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Look at the fate of those that perish and why.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The people that perish "might have been saved" but they chose not to receive but to reject the truth.

Peter writes after the cross...

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If all couln't come to repentance and have a chance at eternal life then their is no reason to for God to be "longsuffering".

Universalists and hyper Calvinists make it appear that God is a game playing monster who punishes man for not obeying commands that they falsely claim man cannot choose to obey to begin with.

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent when Paul was preaching this it was to unbelievers on Mars Hill.

And this is after the cross. Something that is unnecessary if men have no choice.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[Litebeam]

cj


Actually the only one so far who has openly shown contempt is you. Perhaps you yourself should give reasonable dialogue a try.

Thank you for another opportunity to forgive you for your condemnation. I pray you forgive me as well.


God bless!

 

[bibleberean]

Does God force people to believe a lie in the following verses and then punish them for it?

No! :roll:

Only a heretick such as a Universalist would believe such rubbish.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God does not force those who do not receive a love of the truth to believe lies. God in His perfect wisdom and justice sends those who already have rejected Him a lie that they will embrace.

As we can see in the next verse those who are damned rejected the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Choice, we all have a choice to make.

We can believe God or we can choose to follow the father of lies.

 

[bibleberean]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God can and will save everyone who ever walked the face of the Earth."

BB quotes

You are wilfully promoting UR doctrine in violation of the rules here!

You have shown nothing but non Christian contempt for the Administrators and Moderators here by deliberately breaking the rules!

Forum rule

The opportunity was given to the UR supporters for a second time when discussions re-opened, so that they might produce evidence that universal reconciliation can be taken seriously. However, the unanswered questions have only been evaded and have led to more unanswered questions. Their distortion of scripture has been made readily apparent. They have take verses out of context, even ignoring key words within those verses that give them the very meaning that God intended. By doing so, they are making a mockery of what God's Word says. They have made it clear, that they deny the Word of God as Whole.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

As a result, the disruption that they've caused will no longer be tolerated. UR is a false doctrine and it will be treated as such. Therefore, there will be no promoting of it or debating it any longer. It has been exposed for what it is and it's being used by Satan now to cause distraction from discussing the Truth's of God's Word. UR doctrine is now banned permanently.

Lets all get back to discussing topics that are beneficial & essential
to grow in the Word of God.

 

[cj]

Saints, be clear concerning the one who can make himself like an angel of light in appearance,......

cj

Actually the only one so far who has openly shown contempt is you. Perhaps you yourself should give reasonable dialogue a try.

Thank you for another opportunity to forgive you for your condemnation. I pray you forgive me as well.

Look, as a man exalts himself before other men.

Litebeam so wants to seem pleasing to others,...... but what need do any have of hearing Litebeam declare that he has forgiven me?

The Lord advises us to keep our suffering to ourselves, and then He will, in resurrection, declare it in good time.

But an ungodly man knows nothing of God's way.

In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

TIME OUT!

Litebeam, BB has informed you of the rules. The topic of UR has been terminated indefinitely on this site due to the hostility brought on by everyone that ever partook in it's debate. I know you have been warned about this. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, I must warn you again... please DO NOT dredge up this subject again.

It's not that we don't want to debate, it just that it simply cannot be debated in a civilized manner. There will be some major warnings and bannings if this continues to be an issue.

Thanks for listening and peace,
Vic

 

[Charlotte]

Man had a Choice before the cross and he has a choice after the cross.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Those who choose to believe and embrace lies will experience the wrath of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Look at the fate of those that perish and why.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The people that perish "might have been saved" but they chose not to receive but to reject the truth.

Peter writes after the cross...

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If all couln't come to repentance and have a chance at eternal life then their is no reason to for God to be "longsuffering".

Universalists and hyper Calvinists make it appear that God is a game playing monster who punishes man for not obeying commands that they falsely claim man cannot choose to obey to begin with.

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent when Paul was preaching this it was to unbelievers on Mars Hill.

And this is after the cross. Something that is unnecessary if men have no choice.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Well, I answered your post but it was deleted.

You quoted (Acts 17:30), but left out (Acts 17:31) "Because He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man {Jesus} whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead".

This is not my saying, it is the Bible. How do you interperet this verse? What is it saying?

Charlotte

 

[bibleberean]

I will no longer dialogue directly with universalists. It is a waste of time.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I will however keep posting the obvious in this thread.

We have a choice. Obey and believe the gospel or reject the gospel and perish.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Charlotte... just for the record, so you know, I didn't delete any of your posts. Feel free to repost it as long as it doesn't break any rules. :

 

[Vic C.]

I will no longer dialogue directly with universalists. It is a waste of time.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I will however keep posting the obvious in this thread.

We have a choice. Obey and believe the gospel or reject the gospel and perish.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'm not choosing sides here, but I believe Charlotte has a bit more going for her than just UR. I enjoyed our debates on the Trinity and angels. 8-)

 

[Charlotte]

Hi Vic,

Thank you very much, I appreciate your kindness. I think I need to just take a breather from all forums for a while and just pray.

Vic, I believe you really want to be fair and honest and God knows that. Thanks again.

God bless you.

Charlotte

 

[Scott]

Vic, I believe you really want to be fair and honest

Be sure you follow those words yourself too Charlotte.

 

[stovebolts]

Bibleberean, StoveBolts,

One thing you have to remember is, before the crucifixion of Jesus the Israelites were under the law and their salvation was dependant on works. Ours is not. Therefore, there is a difference in the, then, and now. All of the verses you referred to in John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and even some in the epistles of James, Peter, and John, were to lawkeepers.

Charlotte

Hello Charlotte.
First off, know that I am not here to belittle you or anyone else. I am simply here to test the scriptures as described in 2 Timothy 3:16 for I have found that through testing the scriptures, the truth always bubbles to the top.

Now, that being said,
Matthew 5:17-19 The law has it's place in today's living, but it has little to do with Free will from what I can tell. Where I respectfully disagree with you is the belief that their salvation was dependant on works. This has never been the case as Jesus rightly corrected those that thought such.
When David was depressed, this is what he had to say...
Psalms 13:5 But I have trusted in your mercy; my heart shall rejoice in your salvation.
Then David asks the question.
Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
And the answer is given.
Psalms 24:4 He that has clean hands, and a pure heart; who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
And what does David say their reward is?
Psalms 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

So, what does all this have to do with Free Will you ask? From my perspective, it appears that our salvation comes from our response hence our free will is the choices that we make on a daily basis.

I like the way James put it.
James 2:14-16 What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; yet you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?

All the grace in the world and every ounce of grace that God has is only as good as ones response to it for Salvation comes each and every day that one abides in God's grace, and it is our Choice through a pure heart the path we choose.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Notice how the writer describes the works as HIS works... And why do you think this is? May I suggest that God works his salvation through us and that His law provides for his sheep as a means of their salvation.
Leviticus 23:22 And when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not completely reap the corners of your field when you reap, neither shall you gather any gleaning of your harvest: you shall leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

And this is part of God's economy.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

They cannot answer simply yes and agree with this scripture, nor similar ones because they are under the delusion that they have free will. They do not believe that God is sovereign in all things. Therefore they do not trust God as they should, or seek His will.

With all due respect, please address "his own will;". This entails "Choice" does it not? In other words, does God have a choice? He certainly has a will so it is safe to assume that he also has a choice. Do not mistake having a choice with being sovereign.

But lets stop here for a second. Lets say that man has no true free will as he certainly isn't sovereign in the scope of the discussion. Man still has choice and it comes down to choosing God's will, or mans will. (You do agree that man has a will right?) So, man would have the will to do his desires or God's desires for it would be the will of man that made the choice. This being said, man would not have a "Free Will" as outlined simply because God controls good and evil and holding the sovereignty that he does, our will could only choose that what God allowed.

Now, for me, here is the meat and potatoes. What does God allow us to choose from? It's pretty simple actually. We can either choose His will, or Our will... So really, it has very little to do with "Free Will", as it does with "Choice".

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

God really is in control of everything and everybody. We are not mindless automatons as some would claim. It is far more complicated than that.

Absolutly, and what did God choose to grant us? He choose to grant us the power to choose. Make no mistake, ther is great power in that ability.

We were created to do God’s will, not our own. The one true Living God, The Father of All Creation, The Lord God Almighty.

So the question comes down to, what is God's will? God's will can be seen through God's laws as I've tried to glint upon to Charlotte. We can also see what God's will for us is in Eph chapter 4. Again, it comes down to choice...

When we are eventually brought around to putting His will first and doing things His way, we begin to become like Jesus. The Son of God! Joint heirs with Christ. Rulers of God’s Kingdom for all the ages or times.

Salvation is found in the present age... our rewards are found in the age to come. What matters, is today. The question, How will you respond?

Peace be with you both.

Jeff

 

[Litebeam]

StoveBolts



Yes we have choice. We do not have free will. They are two different things.



CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.



FREE WIIL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.





God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He created all that is in the world from beginning to end. Every life, mind, thing on this planet. He is God Almighty!




What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these things come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ (Mark 7:20-23)


Our hearts are being tested. We will all be shown the truth of all scripture.


We will be shown that without God, we make very poor choices indeed.




He created each and every one of us and knows us so intimately that He knows what we will ââ‚Å“choose†every single time.


God bless!

 

[stovebolts]

LiteBeam,
Understand that I see where you are coming from. However, after searching I could not find the definitions you posted.

From Dictionary.com

Choice:
1. The act of choosing; selection.
2. The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.
3. One that is chosen.
4. A number or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of styles and colors.
5. The best or most preferable part.
6. Care in choosing.
7. An alternative

CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.

I agree with most of what you have written until it gets to "He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event"
God did not create the automobile, Man did. However, God gave man the ability to reason... To think on his own. And it is through those abilities that Man was able to take the items that God created and form objects. Now, did God know that man would create the automobile and pollute the earth? I'm sure he did. That being said, did God pollute the earth with automobile emissions? According to the logic you present (The way I understand it), He did because He created the automobile.
Furthermore, according to your statement, God caused the serial murderer to rape and murder his victims... This is starting to sound a lot like a cross between Freudian and Rogerian logic where you and I are not held accountable for our actions... Rather we have an excuse that is solidified in our own justifications. I believe that this goes against the fundimental foundation of God's word as we will be and we are held accountable for the choices that we make from moment to moment. I also see this line of thinking as a direct threat to ones salvation as it lends to one not resolving one's issues on a daily basis but rather affords one the opportunity to "Leave it all in God's Hands". Now, don't take this wrong, But God demands that we take care of our business today... and it is through taking care of that business that our salvation comes about on a daily basis. I'm not saying that we are to abandon our faith because we are called to "Leave it all in God's hands", but we are to do this in faith... and faith is active, it's not passive. In other words, we are supposed to "DO" things in faith and that doingness is called works through faith, or are manifested as "Fruits (results) of the Spirit" Remember, our rewards are either on earth, or they are in heaven... and they both hinge upone the choices we make today.
Now, can God use the pollution from the automobile or the serial killer to have a positive impact on our lives? Certainly without a doubt. To make a last point, God's word states that God is not the author of confusion. However, if God allows confusion, does that make him the author of it? After all, the act of confusion would be considered an event right?

Free (First Two of many)
1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
2. Not controlled by obligation or the will of another: felt free to go.
Free Will
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

FREE WIIL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.

So, you believe in fate... Do you believe that some men were put on this earth to suffer emense pain and agony intentionally? Lets look at fate.

Fate
1. a. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
b. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
2. A final result or consequence; an outcome.
3. Unfavorable destiny; doom.

So, you think that everything was predetermined to happen exactly the way it happens? It was fate that caused me to stumble and stub my toe. This logic in my opinion takes the "Choice" out of choice. In other words, we really don't have a choice because our choices have already been predetermined. Hence, choice is an illusion and hindsight really serves no purpose.
So now I have to ask... Was it fate (God) that caused Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit? Was it fate (God) that caused Adam to lie and shun responsiblility for his ACTIONS? Was it really Adams fault that he didn't take responsibility or was it God causing the event so that pain and suffering would abound on this earth with all of mankind? You see, if Adam didn't really have a choice to eat of the forbidden fruit because his fate dictated otherwise, then we really have to re-evaluate God's purpose for mankind which brings us back to salvation...
Did God drown possibly hundreds of thousands of people and only save 8 of them in the flood so that the Isrealites could be slaves in Egypt just so he could "Save" them and have them wander in the desert for 40 years just so Saul would be King... And David would have a heart after God and would produce a savior that would die on a cross for the sins of the world... umm err, I mean, the sins of God... God making an atonment to himself for the evils he created? Did God inflict his own fate upon himself?

Now, if I sound sarcastic, it was not my intention. So many things hinge upon "Free Will" and "Choice" and you have to admit that they are tied together. Yes, God knows every hair on our body and he knows every choice that we will make. But we still have the choice to choose and it's not an illusion. From what I can tell, God has given us the authority to choose, and he holds us accountable for the choices we make. To be accountable is to have a certain amount of autonomy and we have the freedom to control our own fate within the boundries that God has provided.