Satan's Great Lie

[Charlotte]

God defeats Satan by the free-will response of men.

cj,

Even you know better than this, or at least I hope so.

Jesus death and resurrection destroys the work of Satan, not man. :o

(1John 3:8) For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.

Charlotte

 

[stovebolts]

I probably shouldn't post as I won't have time to follow the thread as I'm on vacation, but I will do some catch up once I return.

CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.

I believe God created Adam. Out of Adam came Eve and out of Adam and Eve, came mankind as we now know it. You see, I believe that God got the ball rolling... Set things in motion you might say. And yes, I believe his sovernty knows the natural course of all things. But I don't think that God creates every circumstance, cause and event, rather; He allows them in full knowledge of their outcome.
Yes, God did create the elements that are needed for the events because God did create ALL things. However, it is OUR choices that puts the ingredients together to make the product. I believe that we create the events in many cases and that God ALLOWS theses events to transpire. Again, it is true that God created the ingredients and knows every recipy, but we are the ones that create the pudding or the pie.

FREE WILL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.

No it doesn't. Free will assumes that we are free to make the choices that are available to us. It is true that God allows and created the elements and knows if we are going to make pudding or pie, but it is our free will that decides what we are going to create (pie) with that which is already created (flour, milk).
My friend, to think we can thwart His plans, is to misunderstand what his sovernty is based on. His sovernty is based on Grace and through His Grace comes our salvation.
Salvation occurs daily in our lives when we allow Christ to enter our lives daily and guides us in each and every word and action. This is all part of God's economy which his sovernty is based upon and is driven by our free will to make the choices that are available. Simply put, God must respond to us as he has and as he will; for God is an entity that has made us a promise (covenant) and God is good for his Word.
History shows God's perfect plan as he responds to us. I believe it started in the Garden when he followed through with His Promise to Adam and Eve as they were removed from the Garden for not doing God's will. Again, we see God responding to Man with Noah, Moses, Jonah, David and on and on and on until God's perfect timing brought about His Son whome he was well pleased (Jesus).
You see, God is perfect, and he must respond to His creation to fullfill His promises. To think otherwise is to doubt His sovernty and misunderstand His economy. And the beauty of God's plan, is that it is His plan, and He does keep his promises as boldly seen throughout the OT and as History verifies. And yes, we do have a choice and it must come from us, as through His image, we also have a piece of this 'sovernty' built within us which is why we are so precious to Him.

In summary, to say that God dictates our every move, our every thought, our every action is to make God a little god. There are good people on this earth and there are bad people on this earth and God has made a promise to both. To say that he hasn't, is to say that God receives pleasure from the suffering of mankind which no doubt causes God to suffer. I believe Paul tells us not to sin abundently or purposfully as to take advantage of God's grace. (somebody please find this verse and post for me) If free will is what you are describing, then would you also say that God is taking advantage of his own grace within himself? Would Pauls words be a case of; do as I say, not as I do?

Peace.

 

[bibleberean]

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[stovebolts]

God defeats Satan by the free-will response of men.

cj,

Even you know better than this, or at least I hope so.

Jesus death and resurrection destroys the work of Satan, not man. :o

(1John 3:8) For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.

Charlotte

Hello Charlotte. Know that I enjoy reading your posts. However, I do have a question for you. Please take it in good faith.

Have you thought about the economy of Satan and his sovernty? Oh yes, he does have an economy and he is sovergn in that regard. (emphasis on regard)
Which brings about God's promise of His Son Jesus and the purpose of His son upon the cross.
Dear Sister in Christ, I believe that the works of the devil are manifested through man, and the only way to destroy those works are to accept Jesus as your savior which is why salvation comes daily through Christ. You see, once the work of God had been completed on the cross, it began a new age which Christ is now reigning.
In Jesus's day, men thought that Jesus was going to be this great leader, this mighty authority that would rule the nations and squish satan. Satan is still around... because they did not understand God's economy. So it is true that the works of the devil are manifested through men and that the acceptance of Christ sets man free (and destroys the works of the devil).
Isn't it wonderful that you have been given this Choice?

Jeff

 

[Charlotte]

Hi Jeff,

It is through the death and resurrection of Jesus that destroys the work of the Devil, even though the work of Satan is still going on now. Just like through Jesus death and resurrection sin is destroyed, although we still sin. Nevertheless, in the end both of these things will be destroyed. The works of Satan and sin. Reason for both dissappearing? Jesus. :wink:

I will have to respectivly disagree with you on "man's free will". Free will means without influence of any kind. free from restraints.

If man had this free will we could do things outside the will of God.

Answer me this please:

If Jesus could do nothing on His own, how can we?

Charlotte

 

[bibleberean]

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Judges 6:10 And I said unto you, I am the LORD your God; fear not the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.

 

[cj]

cj,

Even you know better than this, or at least I hope so.

Charlotte, what do you know of what I know?

Really, you completely missed what my point was.

Jesus death and resurrection destroys the work of Satan, not man.

(1John 3:8) For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.

So tell me, where does one see the manifested works of the Son of God if not in men.

Don't be quick Charlotte.

In love,
cj

 

[Charlotte]

cj,

We certaintly cannot destroy the works of the Devil, if we could we would have no sin. It is only through the works of Jesus Christ that we are free from sin. If we could destroy the works of the Devil, then Christ died in vain.

Charlotte

 

[bibleberean]

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Judges 6:10 And I said unto you, I am the LORD your God; fear not the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.

Clearly we have a choice... :D

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Jeff,

It is through the death and resurrection of Jesus that destroys the work of the Devil, even though the work of Satan is still going on now. Just like through Jesus death and resurrection sin is destroyed, although we still sin. Nevertheless, in the end both of these things will be destroyed. The works of Satan and sin. Reason for both dissappearing? Jesus. :wink:

Yes, I agree on a simplistic basis. It was Christ on the Cross that gives the ability to destroy the devils works. However, we must remember that Satan is still active today in our lives on this earth... Can we agree here? I hope so. That being said, Satan was not destroyed nor were his works. The passage you quoted says "Might", not IS or Was. As a result, Sin and the works of Satan are still present in this age. It was through the death, burial and resurection of Christ that afforded the "Might" (as in choice or question)as Satan's works are manifested through our lives. What occured on the cross allows us to have the Holy Spirit dwell within us hence destroying the works of Satan each and every day that we choose to loose ourselves and let the Holy Spirit dwell within us... (it's part of putting away the old man and being made new each day in Christ) Simply put, without Christ dwelling within, Satan is allowed to run amuck destroying ones beingness which God can use if we choose to let him run his will in our lives and not our own... Wow, did you get that? Yes, destruction in this lifetime is good when we focus on Christ because Christ manifested in ones life brings about salvation. Clearly this is ones choice where the indivdual make a conciouse decision to place his trust and faith in God, and not his own abilities or understanding.

I will have to respectivly disagree with you on "man's free will". Free will means without influence of any kind. free from restraints.

And I appreciate the respect. Know that I also respect your view.
That being said, Free Will is nothing other than the ability to choose based on our own consiousness as we are all restrained by our environment. Yes, God created the pieces of the environment, but we choose how to put them together. We choose [with the exception of a few like Pharoh] how we will respond to certain events in our life. You are influenced by your environment as every creature on earth.
Because of this pattern, God knows what are choices will be and can base his will upon this knowledge to work with our will IMHO. I see God as kind of a spectator and not a dictator. Knowing is not in relation to doing. It is OUR choice if we choose to do His will, or our Will and not some grand illusion based on semantics again In My Humble Opinion.

If man had this free will we could do things outside the will of God.

Can God Sin? or is it in God's will that we Sin? :wink:

Answer me this please:

If Jesus could do nothing on His own, how can we?

Charlotte

I don't really understand the question here or where you derived it from... Can you show me a scripture to make your point?

Thanks Charlotte. I don't know if I'll be able to check the boards until next Monday.
Take care.

Jeff

 

[Litebeam]

StoveBolts


Thank you for taking the time to post. Hope you have a great vacation and find time to join in the discussion when you find the time.

The majority fail to see a difference between “choice†and free will.†If you read all the posts that have been made on this thread carefully you may begin to “see†the delusion for what it is.

Those who claim free will are in denial of several hundred scriptures that declare God The Sovereign Lord of All Creation.

The worldly view of creation is quite as you have described…..



StoveBolt wrote:

God got the ball rolling... Set things in motion you might say. And yes, I believe his sovernty knows the natural course of all things. But I don't think that God creates every circumstance, cause and event, rather; He allows them in full knowledge of their outcome.






The truth is God created everything from beginning to end and everything in between as well.


John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.




God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He created all that is in the world from beginning to end. Every life, mind, thing on this planet. He is God Almighty!




What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these things come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ (Mark 7:20-23)


Our hearts are being tested. We will all be shown the truth of all scripture.


We will be shown that without God, we make very poor choices indeed.




He created each and every one of us and knows us so intimately that He knows what we will “choose†every single time.



“Choice†and “free will†are two different things.




God really is in control of everything and everybody. We are not mindless automatons as some would claim. It is far more complicated than that.

We were created to do God’s will, not our own. The one true Living God, The Father of All Creation, The Lord God Almighty.

When we are eventually brought around to putting His will first and doing things His way, we begin to become like Jesus. The Son of God! Joint heirs with Christ. Rulers of God’s Kingdom for all the ages or times.


I look forward to future dialog.


God Bless!

 

[Litebeam]

bibleberean


Yes we have choice. We do not have free will. They are two different things.



CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.



FREE WIIL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.



God Bless!

 

[stovebolts]

LightBeam,

I have been following this thread since your first post. It was not until today that I felt the need to post.

That being said, I do thank you for this enlightining thread. I have learned much.

Take care.

 

[bibleberean]

bibleberean


Yes we have choice. We do not have free will. They are two different things.



CHOICE:

God is the author and creator of every single event, every circumstance that allows men to “chooseâ€Â. He knows what we will choose every time. He created our hearts. He created every single thing. Every circumstance, cause and event.



FREE WIIL:

Free will assumes we can actually supersede God's will and do what we want. That we can thwart His plans and He must respond to us.



God Bless!

I agree with the fact that we cannot thwart God. I simply don't agree with your definition of free will. We can choose to serve God or disobey Him.

Choice is free will. I cannot choose to fly like Superman and I cannot choose to be God either but that doesn't mean I have no free will at all.

"God is not willing that anyone should perish". However there are people that will.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And yet some refuse to come to repentance...and they never will...

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Not everyone is going to believe and not everyone is going to repent even though God is not willing that any should perish.

Cut dry plain and simple. We have a choice (free will).

 

[Charlotte]

Because of this pattern, God knows what are choices will be and can base his will upon this knowledge to work with our will IMHO.

StoveBolts,

This sounds like God is dependant on man. God waits for man to do his thing, so God can compensate for it.


Here is the verse you ask for. (John 5:30) I can of mine own self do nothing.

(John 5:19) The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:

(John 15:5) For without me ye can do nothing. (1Cor. 4:4)

Every thing that Jesus said and did was the Father working in Him. (John 8:28) That I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Charlotte[/b]

 

[bibleberean]

Jesus came and humbled Himself to make atonement for man's sins. He was obedient.

Man is in rebellion and God has offered mankind a pardon.

It is up to man to recieve that pardon.

It is a free will choice.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

There is the choice man has. We can receive Christ or reject Him.

That is the way it is... ;-)

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts,

This sounds like God is dependant on man. God waits for man to do his thing, so God can compensate for it.

I'm sorry I did not articulate that very clearly. It was not my intent to say that God is dependant upon man. However, God did make a promise and His yes means YES and his no means NO. In addition, God did make Abraham a promise. To date, He has kept that promise.
I am suddently reminded of the conversation that God had with Moses when God wanted to smite the Isrealites... And what did Moses do?
God Said...
Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people:
Exodus 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may grow hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of you a great nation.

And Moses's reply was...
Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why does your wrath grow hot against your people, whom you have brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Exodus 32:12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from your fierce wrath, and change from this evil against your people.

But Moses didn't stop there thank goodness!!
Exodus 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said unto them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.

Now, do you really think that God had forgotten his promise or do you entertain the idea that God was going to change his tune? But wait, What did God do?

Exodus 32:14 And the LORD turned from the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

The moral of the story is that God does suffer by allowing our will to superseed His will at times. And what is God's will for us? We can find this in 1 Thessalonians 5 (The whole chapter)

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

But wait, it doesn't stop here... He is speaking about the results of the spirit and concludes...
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen
And that, is God's will; that we be filled with His will and not that of our own.

Now, the task of John 5

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

I think this speaks loudly of who has attained perfect harmony with God... Can you or I say that in truth? I didn't think so because in all truth, God gave us His Son... John 3:16

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

So here, does Jesus proceed with his will, or the Will of the Father? The answer lies in verse 31

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

For truth comes FROM the father... Which is the WILL of the Father and not the will of our OWN...

Let me see if I am tracking... Are you saying that we can have our own will, yet we fall short of Free Will? Isn't Free Will simply having the authority to make our own choices? If that is the case, then what is God's ultamate purpose for 'Willing' pain and sorrow?

 

[Litebeam]

bibleberean



It is not cut dry plain and simple at all. Free will doctrine is a powerful delusion that has the majority completely fooled.


Most are unwilling to even consider any alternative to claiming free will.



In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: Eph 1:11


This scripture doesn’t agree with man having free will.





You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit- fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other. (John15:16-17)


Neither does this one.






Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Or this one. As well as many others.






Does it not seem a little strange that this is what the vast majority believe, that they have free will? Throughout the whole Bible it is always the minority who truly follow God. Isn’t it?



Job 37:5
God's voice thunders in marvelous ways; he does great things beyond our understanding.


Claim things are simple if you want to.



God bless!

 

[Litebeam]

LightBeam,

I have been following this thread since your first post. It was not until today that I felt the need to post.

That being said, I do thank you for this enlightining thread. I have learned much.

Take care.

Thank you. I'm glad to have been of some service.

God bless!

 

[bibleberean]

It seems strange that the vast majority will not willingly receive Christ not that they believe that they can choose to obey or disobey God.

Many people choose to deny that God exists...

Psalms 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

They aren't fools if they have no choice in the matter if God simply did not choose them to be saved.

Not all men will be saved.

God is not playing with dolls like a little girl! He doesn't do that to men.

In Romans Chapter one we read...

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Did these people have a choice...?

Yes they did...

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

If God didn't want them to see then He wouldn't have a reason to pour out His fury upon those who "hold the truth in unrighteousness"

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

They moved from light to darkness. They were not thankful...

Choice is involved.

God decided before the foundation of the world that the church which is the collective body of those who have trusted in Christ would become adopted sons.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

It was God's good pleasure to predestinate the church collectively.

Before we believed God we were children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We were children of wrath but once we believed and received the gospel we became new creatures.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Man can choose to walk in light or to walk in darkness.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Those who choose to look to Christ will be saved.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Those who do not believe will perish...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The choice is ours.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

It isn't that some men can't come it is that they won't come...

Those who say we have no choice are denying man's accountability to God.

Want proof?

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Cain had a reason and made a choice to kill his own brother. He was not deluded into thinking he had a choice when he really didn't.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Those who say "man has no choice" hang their beliefs on a few verses they don't understand.

The bible is clear. "Choose you this day whom you will serve...." Joshua 24:15

That verse lends itself to the fact not the delusion that man has a choice.

Moses said...

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Cut and dry plain and simple.