Saturday Or Sunday Church ?

[wavy]

You have been unable to see the truth of the scriptures relayed to you, and I suspect by your attitude and continual ad hominem tactics that you have no ground to stand on other than that which you have fabricated.

I openly apologize for some of my comments. When I get frustrated I can get offensive, but what I did say was true. Here you talk about "truth of the scriptures" but what have you shown me? I've asked you many times to back up your point, both in this thread and in about two others. You don't do it. You post a scripture and insert your opinion into it. When I refute it, based off of what it says, you just say nonsense like this without answering. Not the best way to convey supposed "truth". I've used scriptural back up. I've even used the few scriptures you do use. So let's not just openly make wild claims about fabrications.

God has chosen the unlearned and nonsense of this world to confound the wise. God has chosen the abased and needy to call unto his righteousness, as the learned and knowing have been kept from him by their pride.

Yeah, and he does it by his word, not the opinions of "solo".

How is a person born again, wavy?

Having a renewed heart through the Ruach of Yahweh. Being willing with all your being to serve him.

What is walking in the Spirit?

Walking as Messiah, keeping the commandments and doing it with a pure and joyful heart. Not for salvation or to boast.

What is walking in the flesh?

Breaking the commandments. Also, mandated legalism for the believer who puts his works above all other things.

How do you keep the Sabbath day different that you keep the other six?

Resting on it.

How is a person converted from a lost condition to a life in Jesus Christ?

Yahshua HaMoshiach rescues a person by their belief in him and a willingness to repent.

Is Jesus Christ God almighty, Father God?

Yahshua is not the Father. He is the begotten Son of Yahweh, yet still Yahweh at the same time and therefore eternal. This is what we are called to believe. In his name: Yahweh-shua. Yahweh-Savior. The one sent for salvation.

Is being a Messianic Nazarene physical or spiritual?

Silly question. What exactly did you expect me to say?

But anyway, being spiritually renewed and outwardly showing it as a result. Being a light to the world by sanctified conduct.

 

[Solo]

You have been unable to see the truth of the scriptures relayed to you, and I suspect by your attitude and continual ad hominem tactics that you have no ground to stand on other than that which you have fabricated.

I openly apologize for some of my comments. When I get frustrated I can get offensive, but what I did say was true. Here you talk about "truth of the scriptures" but what have you shown me? I've asked you many times to back up your point, both in this thread and in about two others. You don't do it. You post a scripture and insert your opinion into it. When I refute it, based off of what it says, you just say nonsense like this without answering. Not the best way to convey supposed "truth". I've used scriptural back up. I've even used the few scriptures you do use. So let's not just openly make wild claims about fabrications.

God has chosen the unlearned and nonsense of this world to confound the wise. God has chosen the abased and needy to call unto his righteousness, as the learned and knowing have been kept from him by their pride.

Yeah, and he does it by his word, not the opinions of "solo".

How is a person born again, wavy?

Having a renewed heart through the Ruach of Yahweh. Being willing with all your being to serve him.

What is walking in the Spirit?

Walking as Messiah, keeping the commandments and doing it with a pure and joyful heart. Not for salvation or to boast.

What is walking in the flesh?

Breaking the commandments. Also, mandated legalism for the believer who puts his works above all other things.

How do you keep the Sabbath day different that you keep the other six?

Resting on it.

How is a person converted from a lost condition to a life in Jesus Christ?

Yahshua HaMoshiach rescues a person by their belief in him and a willingness to repent.

Is Jesus Christ God almighty, Father God?

Yahshua is not the Father. He is the begotten Son of Yahweh, yet still Yahweh at the same time and therefore eternal. This is what we are called to believe. In his name: Yahweh-shua. Yahweh-Savior. The one sent for salvation.

Is being a Messianic Nazarene physical or spiritual?

Silly question. What exactly did you expect me to say?

But anyway, being spiritually renewed and outwardly showing it as a result. Being a light to the world by sanctified conduct.

wavy,
I will get back to you on this post. I have some family time taking precedence at this time. I accept your apology, and I apologize to you if I have been out of bounds in my statements. I am very interested in our debate, and will return.

PS It is not easy for me to pull punches as I have been given the gift of prophecy (proclaiming the Word of God) and not many prophets were well liked.
God bless you and yours,
Michael

 

[Jay T]

You haven't explained how we rest. Remember, the Sabbath is a day of rest (Exodus 31:15).

I'll repeat: Try studying Isaiah 58:13,14.....Exodus 20:8-11....and combine all that, with what Jesus Christ did, on the sabbath.
He went to religious meetings on the sabbath....

 

[Solo]

[quote="kwag_myers":9bd51]You haven't explained how we rest. Remember, the Sabbath is a day of rest (Exodus 31:15).

I'll repeat: Try studying Isaiah 58:13,14.....Exodus 20:8-11....and combine all that, with what Jesus Christ did, on the sabbath.
He went to religious meetings on the sabbath....[/quote:9bd51]

Jesus was about God's business, seven days a week. He did not do anything religious. He lived life and did the Father's will. He did not cease from God's works, but was about God's works seven days a week. Some men will never submit to the authority of Jesus Christ as Lord, and will never understand the meaning of the Sabbath rest of God. They will continue their entire life believing that keeping one day a week and calling it the rest of the sabbath is a sign that they are God's, when in fact they are deluded by the tradition of a cultic following that followed false doctrines instead of the Word of God.

Hebrews 4 teaches that the rest that believers enter into is Jesus Christ after He fulfilled the Law of Moses, and that the rest that is in Jesus Christ is the cessation of man's works, and the entrance into the works of God.

 

[wavy]

***sigh***

 

[SputnikBoy]

That doesn't mean that this is the end of the line for the law. It means that Christ is the fulfillment of the law in the sense that He brought it to completion by obeying perfectly its demands. Everyone who believes will, as a consequence, fulfill what the law demands.

I agree with most of the rest of this except the last sentence. I believe that we rest in the fact that Jesus has fulfilled the law on our behalf. Do we need to offer ourselves physically as a sacrifice? Isn't that what Jesus did? Sure He did, but He did it so that we can be free from that. Likewise, we are free from the physical law of keeping the Sabbath, yet bound to the spiritual law of resting in His finished work.

I must confess, kwag, that 'being bound to the spiritual law of resting in His finished work' is somewhat abstract to me. Sounds as if you're already floating on a cloud strumming a harp waiting for the gates of heaven to open up so that you can pick up your halo. No offense, but how boring! Obviously, I've missed the point of the dialog.

The Old Testament is very clear on the Sabbath. And Hebrews states equally as clear that the Old Testament law is a physical representation of spiritual reality. Specifically, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1. Yet you choose to remain under the Old Testament law of self works, or dead works, instead of resting in His work.

ing:

Being righteous means just that - living in accordance to the will of God. Does God's Law bother you, kwag? If so, why?

Wrong! We are made righteous through Christ. It's not something we do, but what He has done (Galations 2:21). Once again, resting in the finished work of Jesus (notice a theme here?).

Sure do. ing:

It's not God's Law that bothers me, but those who, like the pharisees of old, try to use the law to put heavy burdens of "you must obey..." on God's people. Are you bothered by the freedom that I have in Christ ? If so, why? (1 Timothy 1:9)

There are obviously Christians and Christians. There are Christians who diligently 'keep' Sunday, week in and week out, as a version of 'the sabbath'. Then there are Christians who diligently keep Saturday, the true Sabbath, week in and week out. The difference? Keeping Sunday evidently displays the freedom that one has in Christ. Keeping Saturday evidently displays the heavy burden of "you must obey." The nonsense behind your posts is beginning to disturb me, kwag.

We "Saturday vs. Sunday" guys have answered that question on other threads a number of times previously in great detail. Why on earth would you think that it's a question we can't answer?

Because you say you have, yet you offer no evidence. Give me a link to these many threads of wisdom.

Oh, kwag, you're such a lazy Christian as well as a sarcastic one. Stop resting for a moment and do some physical homework. I don't have some form of 'forum concordance' at my disposal where I can find a link to every word contained in every thread. Since you asked, however ...

In a nutshell, the Sabbath begins at sunset Friday. Sabbatarians are NOT robots and each individual has the freedom to keep the Sabbath however he/she chooses. Generally speaking, the time will be spent on Christ-centered projects whether it involve youth/adult meetings, music programs, family-get-togethers, Bible-study, evangelical videos/DVDs, etc.

Saturday morning at the church starts out with Sabbath School at 9:30am followed by the main service at 11:00am. Services are, again, Christ-centered and the 'type' of service is dependent on the particular 'culture' of the church. My church, for instance, is far less conservative than the SDA church on the other side of town. Therefore the worship service at my church would be of a more contemporary nature than the other. Yet another SDA church (there are 3 in Townsville) is 'somewhere in the middle' culturally speaking.

The main service at my church would generally start out with 3 songs, prayer and offering, 3 more songs, prayer, sermon, prayer, one song, prayer, and finish. Since I'm the musical coordinator of my church the music is always brilliant! :smt034 :smt035 :wink:

Following church ...one has the freedom, as always, to spend the rest of the Sabbath however he/she wishes. There may be a luncheon at the church, invitations to someone's home for lunch, or whatever may be in the offing. Groups from the church may opt to visit nursing homes, hospitals, present a musical program, or just chat with the residents for a while. Others may spend time with their natural and church family in one of the many parks we have here. There are all manner of things that one can do to make the Sabbath a delight. There are no hard and fast rules to keeping the Sabbath.

Come sunset Saturday ...we shake off our inhibitions, let down our hair, and PARTY! Obviously, I'm just kidding. :smt091 Saturday evening, as thru'out the week, I'd like to think that we continue to uphold high Christian standards and appropriate conduct.

One keeps the Sabbath according to their own inner dictates.

Wrong again. That's soul power. We keep the Sabbath according to what the Holy Spirit teaches us. Your "own inner dictates" is anti-Holy Spirit.

Whatever, kwag. As I say, we are not robots ...just mere human beings who have the freedom to choose. And, what do you mean, "WE keep the Sabbath according to what the Holy Spirit teaches us?" Are you implying the Holy Spirit dictates that you keep Sunday as your 'Sabbath"? Hmmm... well okay.

This is why you cannot see the difference of the physical rest and the spiritual rest. You've rejected the Holy Spirit's input of the truth and depend on your own intellect.

You're right.

How many are brought to Jesus as a result of your "own inner dictates"? Are they comming in masses as they did with Jesus?

Oh, I don't know, kwag, probably not.

Judge by the fruit, or as Dr. Phil would say, "How's that workin' for ya?".

Ooh, I can almost hear Dr. Phil sayin' that! Anyway, kwag, rightly or wrongly, I'm my own man ...okay? The Holy Spirit within me does not take away my ability to make my own choices and make my own decisions. And, unless my 'fruits' are outward manifestations they will not be seen by others. Letting one's light shine cannot be achieved as long as it remains under a bushel or remains as mere 'lip service'. Why is it that I'm being picked on just because I go to church on Saturday? I'm beginning to get an inferiority complex.

I'd like to say that I see the same results as Jesus did, but I've only seen a glimps. I've been witness to many miracles, but I know that I still need some greater understanding in how to rest in Jesus. However, before I understood the difference between physical rest and spiritual rest, I saw no profit in the Sabbath that I thought I was keeping.

Was that the Saturday Sabbath or the Sunday 'Sabbath'? I'm confused.

So unless you can tell me of great miracles of healing, etc. each and every "seventh day", I suggest that you examine the fruit of what you say.

Whoa there, kwag ...have you gone all 'charismatic' on me? Would you elaborate on what it is that you're trying to get across? This could put a whole new slant on where you're coming from.

 

[kwag_myers]

I must confess, kwag, that 'being bound to the spiritual law of resting in His finished work' is somewhat abstract to me. Sounds as if you're already floating on a cloud strumming a harp waiting for the gates of heaven to open up so that you can pick up your halo. No offense, but how boring! Obviously, I've missed the point of the dialog.

Is running the race set before us boring to you (Hebrews 12:1)? Or casting out demons and healing the sick (Mark 16:17-18)? Are you numb to the tribulation that we suffer living in this world (John 16:33)?

The point is that we can focus our attention on why these signs do not follow us as Jesus said they would. It has nothing to do with keeping a specific day, since that obviously doesn't work. It benefits no one other than ourselves in that we can boast of our good works.

Resting in the finished work of Jesus means that we can move on from the Old Testiment way of sacrific for salvation, and concentrate on advancing the Kingdom of God.

There are obviously Christians and Christians. There are Christians who diligently 'keep' Sunday, week in and week out, as a version of 'the sabbath'. Then there are Christians who diligently keep Saturday, the true Sabbath, week in and week out. The difference? Keeping Sunday evidently displays the freedom that one has in Christ. Keeping Saturday evidently displays the heavy burden of "you must obey." The nonsense behind your posts is beginning to disturb me, kwag.

I think that you were disturbed before I got here. I'm not promoting one day over the other. We can enjoy the Sabbath rest every day of the week. But hey, if you'd rather choose just one day, that's up to you. I choose every day.

Oh, kwag, you're such a lazy Christian as well as a sarcastic one. Stop resting for a moment and do some physical homework. I don't have some form of 'forum concordance' at my disposal where I can find a link to every word contained in every thread. Since you asked, however ...

In a nutshell, the Sabbath begins at sunset Friday. Sabbatarians are NOT robots and each individual has the freedom to keep the Sabbath however he/she chooses. Generally speaking, the time will be spent on Christ-centered projects...

i.e., works

...whether it involve youth/adult meetings, music programs, family-get-togethers, Bible-study, evangelical videos/DVDs, etc.

Nothing about healing the sick or casting out demons. Just a lot of "look how holy I am" stuff. Now THAT is boring.

Saturday morning at the church starts out with Sabbath School at 9:30am followed by the main service at 11:00am. Services are, again, Christ-centered and the 'type' of service is dependent on the particular 'culture' of the church. My church, for instance, is far less conservative than the SDA church on the other side of town. Therefore the worship service at my church would be of a more contemporary nature than the other. Yet another SDA church (there are 3 in Townsville) is 'somewhere in the middle' culturally speaking.

Now one saved here! But I think we may have found the cure for insomnia. I'll spare me the rest of your Sabbath snooze fest.

Whatever, kwag. As I say, we are not robots ...just mere human beings who have the freedom to choose. And, what do you mean, "WE keep the Sabbath according to what the Holy Spirit teaches us?" Are you implying the Holy Spirit dictates that you keep Sunday as your 'Sabbath"? Hmmm... well okay.

You really don't get it. It's not one day, it's every day.

Ooh, I can almost hear Dr. Phil sayin' that! Anyway, kwag, rightly or wrongly, I'm my own man ...okay? The Holy Spirit within me does not take away my ability to make my own choices and make my own decisions. And, unless my 'fruits' are outward manifestations they will not be seen by others. Letting one's light shine cannot be achieved as long as it remains under a bushel or remains as mere 'lip service'. Why is it that I'm being picked on just because I go to church on Saturday? I'm beginning to get an inferiority complex.

I don't care what day you go to church. Personally, I go several times each week. I'm trying to get you out of the Old Testament and into the New. Keeping the Sabbath is not going to church on a specific day. I wish you could see past that.

Was that the Saturday Sabbath or the Sunday 'Sabbath'? I'm confused.

I used to believe that the Sabbath was a specific day (which day that was is irrelevant). Now I understand that the Old Testament Sabbath was a symbol of resting from my works toward earning my salvation and receiving salvation from Jesus' work.

Whoa there, kwag ...have you gone all 'charismatic' on me? Would you elaborate on what it is that you're trying to get across? This could put a whole new slant on where you're coming from.

Actually, I left the charismatic a long time ago. But to answer your question, unless we see the same signs and wonders as Jesus and His Disciples, we need to question what it is that we are doing, or not doing, that is keeping us from advancing the Kingdom with the same power and impact as the early church. If you walk into a room, flip the light switch and nothing happens, do you continue to flip the switch, hoping someday that the light will come on? Or, do you change the bulb?

We are not seeing the same power that the early church experienced. We need to make a change. And if keeping a specific day of the week as Sabbath doesn't produce any fruit, maybe we need to change the way we keep the Sabbath.

 

[wavy]

kwag and solo:

apart from and completely disregarding everything I said, i must say that sputnik alone, on many points has served you both a large stack of PWNCAKES!

Completely pwnzoring you both.

OWNED

(sorry, I couldn't hold it in, take no offense)

 

[Henry]

Silly argument what day do we have church.

The problem here is that you people think church is a place that we go and set of practices we do when go there.

You all need to forget that junk, back up and really learn what Church is. And it is not a place, or a practiced set of ritual, nor an institution.

Think people.

 

[wavy]

Silly argument what day do we have church.

The problem here is that you people think church is a place that we go and set of practices we do when go there.

You all need to forget that junk, back up and really learn what Church is. And it is not a place, or a practiced set of ritual, nor an institution.

Think people.

Exactly. The "church" is the congregation who, according to Psalm 74:2 and Acts 7:38 (according to the words of the spirit-filled martyr, Stephen) is the one and only eternal elect and inheritcance of Yahweh: the nation Israel.

 

[Henry]

Wavy

Certainly, but even more so the church is the people the church is the body of Christ, the church is the living temple of the spirit of God.

You know how people remind us that "Your body is the temple of the living God" well, lets keep in mind that it each of us built together that make up the Temple, it is not that I am the temple, or that you are the temple, but that together WE are the temple.

As Hebrews says, the Temple that is not built by the hands of man.

TO live the church life is all about fellowship one to another, eating together, playing together, hurting together and on and on.

Church has nothing to do with meeting on what ever day, singing some songs calling that worship and listening to someone spit out another sermon, that most the time we do not even remember. All those things are man made.

 

[Jay T]

***sigh***

Don't let him bother you....he doesn't want the truth.

This something I wrote some time ago, to those who think they'll just slide into heaven, without regarding what the Bible has to say......

You and I had nothing to say about our coming into this world, BUT....how and where we spend eternity is entirely in our hands, and depends wholly upon our own choice.

If you choose to spend eternity in God's everlasting Kingdom, then you must bring your life into harmony with God's ways, with his ideals and standards, with His Laws ...and pattern of living.

For He will not change His Kingdom to suit your convenience or comform to your ideas.

His is a Kingdom of Righteousness (Right-doing) and Peace and Joy.
If you want to live in God's Kingdom, you must be Righteous (Yourself), at peace with God and man.

The Prophet Isaiah states the matter very clearly and leaves no one in doubt regarding who will make the change.
He says: "Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near...let the wicked forsake his way, and the UNrighteous man his thoughts.....FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, SAYS THE LORD.
FOR AS THE HEAVENS ARE HIGHER THAN THE EARTH, SO ARE MY WAYS HIGHER THAN YOUR WAYS, AND MY THOUGHTS HIGHER THAN YOUR THOUGHTS", (Isaiah 55:8,9)

Such is the difference between God's eternal Knigdom and the Kingdoms of this world.
Here on this earth man's ideas and ways prevail, BUT over there God's thoughts and standards hold absolute sway.
If you don't like them, then you will not be there.
For God does not want you there in His everlasting Kingdom UNLESS you want to be thereand are willing to conform your life in EVERY detail to His ways and wishes, to His pattern of noble living.
That is it, as far as His Kingdom is concerned, and he says in effect: Take it or leave it !

There will be no compulsion, no coercion, no undue persuasion, no force of any kind.
There will be no more compromising, or coddling.
It is this or else. God is through with sin and sinners.
He has set a day when sin and those who hang onto their sins will be eradicated and destroyed wherever it may be found.
WHY ?
God has, for thousands of years, felt the pain and sufferings of people, who have been effected by sin and its consequences.
He has felt the starvation of little children....
He has felt the pain and suffering of those people who died under the terrible diseases, such as cancer, Black Plague, etc.
He has felt the pain of people, who have lost loved ones, through wars...accidents....etc.

God knows the kinds of people He wants with him throughout all eternity in His Kingdom of Peace and Joy, where no more sin, sickness or sorrow will be found.

As God looks down upon this world of ours, He does not see may different religions or faiths by which men live. He does not see even one of them.....Christianity divided as it is into many different sects, groups, or denominations.
This division among the Christian people did not originate with God. It is not recognized in the scriptures.
For if we read in Psalms 14:....we come to the conclusion that in God's sight there are in the world but 2 classes of people.
Verse 2 says....."The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God".

"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12)

 

[wavy]

Resting in the finished work of Jesus means that we can move on from the Old Testiment way of sacrific for salvation, and concentrate on advancing the Kingdom of God.

Do you understand what the kingdom is? Also, you are in error in assuming that temple sacrifices were instituted for salvation. They were a shadow of the Messiah, made after the pattern of a heavenly Tabernacle (Exodus 25:9; Exodus 25:40; Hebrews 8:5) where Yahshua performs his High Priest ministry of atonement right now. Also, what exactly is the "old testament" according to scripture? Because it is not the contents of Torah or the books from Genesis to Malachi as labled and laid out in your bible (a division made by men).

Yahshua never did away with the sacrifices, however based on the man-made concept that the Torah is "done away with" in favor of grace (the worst error ever to assume!) Yahweh's Word cannot do away with itself. The shifting or transfer of the priesthood from earthly men to Messiah (Hebrews 7:11-12) is not because he did away with Torah. The change is already set-apart, predicted, and justified according to Torah itself, the Neviim/Prophets and the Ketuvim/Writings.

Which? Torah makes it clear that if any blemish is in the sons of Aaron (in the hint understanding, corruption and sin) they should not touch the altar or offer the bread of Yahweh according to Leviticus 21:17-24 and Leviticus 22:2-9. They could still eat of the set-apart bread, though (symbolizing, imo, the fact that they can still partake of Yahshua, since he is the true bread of life and everything in the Tabernacle was a shadow of him). Yahshua Messiah alone could offer an offering that was without spot and that offering had to be himself, not a bull or a goat or ram this time around.

Where in the prophets? Zechariah 3:3-4, with a historic figure named Yahoshua that symbolized sinful men and the changing of his garments, meaning the spotlessness of Messiah as High Priest in exchange for the "iniquity" of the garments of the Levitical priests.

The writings? Of course, Psalm 110:4. Yahshua is a Priest forever after the order of Melech-Tzadik.

Yahshua's ministry as High Priest and our one-time Sacrifice is perfectly sanctified and preserved as right in what people call the "old testament".

Wavy

Certainly, but even more so the church is the people the church is the body of Christ, the church is the living temple of the spirit of God.

Yes, and that temple is Israel, built with twelve foundations (Revelation 21:14) for the twelve apostles who rule Israel (Matthew 19:28), entered in by twelve gates for the twelve tribes (Revelation 21:12) and sustained by twelve fruits, representing the twelve tribes of Israel and all Israelite nations (Revelation 22:2). It all points to the bride, Yahweh's elect: Israel, as a whole redeemed people with Messiah as King.

You know how people remind us that "Your body is the temple of the living God" well, lets keep in mind that it each of us built together that make up the Temple, it is not that I am the temple, or that you are the temple, but that together WE are the temple.

Yes, as Israel (but we must realize our place in Israel first).

As Hebrews says, the Temple that is not built by the hands of man.

This is true. Yahweh inhabits the praises of Israel (Psalm 22:3).

TO live the church life is all about fellowship one to another, eating together, playing together, hurting together and on and on.

Yes, how good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity (Psalm 133:1). Both houses of Israel, reconciled with each other with one Head and King (Ezekiel 37:16-28; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hosea 1:11).

Church has nothing to do with meeting on what ever day, singing some songs calling that worship and listening to someone spit out another sermon, that most the time we do not even remember. All those things are man made.

Church has nothing to do with man picking his own arbitrary days, but when Yahweh appoints us a day to gather together in unity and praise him (his feasts and sabbaths and other appointed times) then it truly means something. We are all on one accord. At peace by the grace of Yahweh through Messiah, who is Yahweh-shua.

HalleluYAH!

 

[wavy]

We can enjoy the Sabbath rest every day of the week.

Sorry, I had to say something else. We can do this? So you will never work for a living? You always rest?

The mistake Christians make is assuming that because something may be a shadow, (although how many believers interpret that shadow is a different story) then that means it is done away with, like the subject of debate: the sabbath. Since man has NOT entered into the rest prepared for us (people who use Hebrews 4 to prove this haven't read Hebrews 4 and therefore it does not prove it), doesn't this mean we still retain the shadow? And regardless, the sabbath will be kept in the new heavens and earth (Isaiah 66:23). Just because the author of Hebrews used the sabbath day truth to prove a point about what is to come, doesn't mean that we don't have to keep the sabbath. The context of Hebrews 4 is not a chapter about whether or not we should keep the sabbath. Christians who don't believe in keeping the sabbath could make the case with Hebrews 4 that we don't have to keep the sabbath because of a FUTURE rest if Hebrews 4 was a chapter comparing sabbath day keeping vs. the rest to come, but it is not.

It's taken out of context and therefore many Christians have made grave error.

 

[wavy]

Don't let him bother you....he doesn't want the truth.

I guess I just get too frustrated when people don't listen. But, all we can do is hope. Plant a seed.

This something I wrote some time ago, to those who think they'll just slide into heaven, without regarding what the Bible has to say......

You and I had nothing to say about our coming into this world, BUT....how and where we spend eternity is entirely in our hands, and depends wholly upon our own choice.

If you choose to spend eternity in God's everlasting Kingdom, then you must bring your life into harmony with God's ways, with his ideals and standards, with His Laws ...and pattern of living.

For He will not change His Kingdom to suit your convenience or comform to your ideas.

His is a Kingdom of Righteousness (Right-doing) and Peace and Joy.
If you want to live in God's Kingdom, you must be Righteous (Yourself), at peace with God and man.

The Prophet Isaiah states the matter very clearly and leaves no one in doubt regarding who will make the change.
He says: "Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near...let the wicked forsake his way, and the UNrighteous man his thoughts.....FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, SAYS THE LORD.
FOR AS THE HEAVENS ARE HIGHER THAN THE EARTH, SO ARE MY WAYS HIGHER THAN YOUR WAYS, AND MY THOUGHTS HIGHER THAN YOUR THOUGHTS", (Isaiah 55:8,9)

Such is the difference between God's eternal Knigdom and the Kingdoms of this world.
Here on this earth man's ideas and ways prevail, BUT over there God's thoughts and standards hold absolute sway.
If you don't like them, then you will not be there.
For God does not want you there in His everlasting Kingdom UNLESS you want to be thereand are willing to conform your life in EVERY detail to His ways and wishes, to His pattern of noble living.
That is it, as far as His Kingdom is concerned, and he says in effect: Take it or leave it !

There will be no compulsion, no coercion, no undue persuasion, no force of any kind.
There will be no more compromising, or coddling.
It is this or else. God is through with sin and sinners.
He has set a day when sin and those who hang onto their sins will be eradicated and destroyed wherever it may be found.
WHY ?
God has, for thousands of years, felt the pain and sufferings of people, who have been effected by sin and its consequences.
He has felt the starvation of little children....
He has felt the pain and suffering of those people who died under the terrible diseases, such as cancer, Black Plague, etc.
He has felt the pain of people, who have lost loved ones, through wars...accidents....etc.

God knows the kinds of people He wants with him throughout all eternity in His Kingdom of Peace and Joy, where no more sin, sickness or sorrow will be found.

As God looks down upon this world of ours, He does not see may different religions or faiths by which men live. He does not see even one of them.....Christianity divided as it is into many different sects, groups, or denominations.
This division among the Christian people did not originate with God. It is not recognized in the scriptures.
For if we read in Psalms 14:....we come to the conclusion that in God's sight there are in the world but 2 classes of people.
Verse 2 says....."The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God".

"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12)


Omein. This is true. You cannot be a Torah mocker, setting aside Yahweh's standard of living, and expect to be accepted into the kingdom. It won't happen. You are going to be told to "depart, you who engage in violation of law" (Matthew 7:23, the Greek word for "iniquity" in the KJV being anomia, i.e. "illegality, violation of law"; Strong's #458 ).

 

[John the Baptist]

Thanks for that little bit or information, but I never said they were a cult. In fact the book I mentioned accepts the SDA as a Christian denomination but has a section on them because many inaccurately call them a cult. Another reason they are talked about in the Book is because of their various unorthodox beliefs...such as soul sleep and annihilation.

In any event, I was passing along some information to Lewis W and to anyone else that might be interested.
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Much agape love and respect,
Nocturnal Principal X

*******
Hi, John here:
I see no reason for any apology about posting up what you did?? The guy can write what he wants about Adventists. Even at times error brings one into contact with truth that might never have been seen. I for one do not believe in prejudice or censorship!

But the thread question is asking about the 7th Day Sabbath or Sunday's [rest] commandment or tradition requirement, as I read it??
I posted this up on another thread, but it answers the required forth commandment question I think?

_________
Anothers quote:
For me, it is simple. ..God's rest is for man, not for God, and man was not made to subject to this rest. That rest is in Jesus Christ whereby believers cease from their sinful works in the flesh, and they live walking in the Spirit doing the works of God seven days a week.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10
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John here: What kind of 'tower of babbling' is that??? (Genesis 11:7-9) Even 1/2 of the Everlasting Gospel! 1 John 5:16-17 But who here knows what that 'Inspiration' means, huh? And these O.S.A.S programmed ones do not even hear the Lord 'striving' with them (Genesis 6:3) to submit to His Eternal Covenant CONDITIONS! Acts 5:32

But when God finished His work of creation. Man was the last thing being created before God was finished. The seventh day we see where God Set Aside this Day, And He Blessed the Day & He told us that it was for Holy Use. He SANCTIFIED the Day] . This Memorial of His Creation would always be special, to Him at least? Revelation 1:10 still sees it as so!! (Webster says to make Holy) God says in Psalms 135:13 "Thy Name, O Lord endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O Lord, throughout all generations."

One might ask their self what Adam and Eve's first sermon might had been? The first day after their creation, on God's Holy Lord's DAY. But regardless, we can find over in Isaiah 58:12-14 some good verses to see what God calls His Holy Day. (verse 13 "My Holy Day") Compare Revelation 1:10 & Mark 2:27-28

Verse 12 says:
"And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and shall be called, the repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."

Compare Daniel 7:25 for the reason why this was to be, & you can see in Exodus 16:4-5 & that of Exodus 16:26-28, that this same devil & his desired Genesis 4:7 agents had always attacked the Lord's Special day! And the reason for that was that God tested His creation on only this one test, to see if they were obedient to His whole ten Commandment Eternal Covenant! See James 2:8-12!

The Eternal Everlasting Covenant can be seen in Hebrews 13:20, and the required by the Godhead, of repeated history in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 . And our Land of Canaan?? Are we not looking to enter there very soon?? Well, take a 'peek' at what their test was & ask yourself what God told us in the Eccl. verses what He again will require us to be tested on before we go home to our land of Canaan? See the same of Exodus 16:35 for what the Mark of the Beast will be!

Verse 13:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My Holy Day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the Holy of the Lord, Honorable; and shalt honor Him, not doing thin own ways, nor finding thin own pleasure, nor speaking thin own words:" . Anything that can be done on other days of the week, that is for personal gain or non/spiritual pleasure, or reading non spiritual books of pleasure, or news papers including T.V. and the such, are prohibited by God. (for me anyway)

Every day shop talk and the likes also. This can all be done on other days. Christ came to Magnify His Covenant and make it Honorable! See Isaiah 42:21 The world has always gone the devils way of no law, or the liberal or the opposite of liberal.. letter of the law. This Christ came to balance out & to 'magnify' and make honorable. You remember, hate is in the end murder & lusting after a woman in the end (see James 1:15) is adultery.

[IF]??? That is up to us, huh?? As Cain brought a fruit sacrifice for his offering to the Lord, so are we free to disobey and not turn our foot from Gods ... "MY HOLY DAY".

Verse 14 in part: "Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; ..." This is conditional as is eternal life! Some say that there are no conditions! But there will be no one saved who will not be Born Again! John 3:3 Before mankind can be desiring to Worship God completely, he need to be reborn with the Eternal Covenant of God in his Heart & Mind! 2 Corinthians 3:3 & Hebrews 10:15-16

We need to understand that these works of Obedience do not save a single soul, only by accepting the Covenant Conditions of Christ 'Epistle' does one now truly Love the Master! And then we obey because of that recreated Born Again Love! Acts 5:32 finds the only ones saved!
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Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 for our provisions on earth, thank you Master!

 

[kwag_myers]

We can enjoy the Sabbath rest every day of the week.

Sorry, I had to say something else. We can do this? So you will never work for a living? You always rest?

Okay, I'm done here. This is obviously way over your head. You do not have the ability to distinguish spirit rest from physical rest. Romans 8:6.

 

[Solo]

Kwag,
These people do not have an understanding of what being born of God is, nor do they understand the spiritual rest every moment of every day. Pray for them.
Michael

 

[wavy]

Okay, I'm done here. This is obviously way over your head. You do not have the ability to distinguish spirit rest from physical rest. Romans 8:6.

Getting a little testy...

Anyway, spirituality is not a release from doing the commandment. The way you guys argue this "spiritual rest" is weak. Because by the EXACT same logic, I could say that we can now physically kill people because according to 1 John 3:15, whoever hates his brother is a murderer.

So because the hate part, the spiritual part which is key, is wrong, does it mean we break the physical commandment? No. This is what you don't seem to understand.

And finish off the rest of that Romans passage:

Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Torah of Yahweh, for neither can it be.

Seems that those in the flesh don't keep the Torah.

And sure, solo, no offense, but I used to say that same stuff. The whole basis for it is not in scripture and it's flawed. An unbiased, willing to learn person can easily see it.

 

[SputnikBoy]

We can enjoy the Sabbath rest every day of the week.

Sorry, I had to say something else. We can do this? So you will never work for a living? You always rest?

Okay, I'm done here. This is obviously way over your head. You do not have the ability to distinguish spirit rest from physical rest. Romans 8:6.

My, you sure do have an impatient and easily threatened spirit residing in you, kwag. You were asked a legitimate question by wavy, one that a number of us would ask of you also ...why not allow the spirit to respond?