Saved by Grace not of works !

[Butch5]

The word works means what it says ! No matter what context. Many things falls under what works is !

Yes, many things do. That is why we need context to determine what is being said. If I said the works at my job make me money, obviously I don't mean I make money by doing things around the house. Or, If tell one of the guys, when he's built a mantle that's really good work you've done there, I'm certainly not complimenting his ability to wash dishes at home. The context is the mantle he built and as such the works comment pertains to his building the mantle not to every single type of work that he ever does. To take Paul's statement out of the context it was written in and use a universal definition of works without any regard to the context of his letter does not prove a point. It's simply called proof texting.

If you want to make your point use the passage in the context of Paul's letter to show that that is what he is teaching.

 

[savedbygrace57]

butch

Yes, many things do.

Yep. Just think of what this definition covers !

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work !

 

[Butch5]

butch



Yep. Just think of what this definition covers !

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work !

It may be but it's not the works that Paul is addressing in Epehsians 2:8. That's why the context is imperatvie. I've shown above that the context determines what works are being referenced. Nowhere in Scripture do you find Paul saying "Anything" one does is counter to justification by faith. Actually we have Paul telling the Romans that one who continues is doing good works is seeking eternal life.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}​

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

If works played no role in salvation then all the good works in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life.

 

[savedbygrace57]

butch

It may be

And it is, So if you believe and teach that one is saved because of something they done, then you teach a false Gospel of Salvation by Works !

 

[Butch5]

butch



And it is, So if you believe and teach that one is saved because of something they done, then you teach a false Gospel of Salvation by Works !

Again, you didn't address the passage. Did Paul teach a false Gospel? It is his words that I quoted.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Again, you didn't address the passage. Did Paul teach a false Gospel? It is his words that I quoted.

Paul is the one who was inspired to write the word works. The word means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work !

You do not listen to Paul or me !

 

[Grazer]

Paul is the one who was inspired to write the word works. The word means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work !

You do not listen to Paul or me !

So you don't believe you've been saved then? I'd also like to come back to a series of questions I asked you but you never answered:

So you didn't accept Christ into your life by your own choice/free will, God forced himself on you? He forced you to accept him? So God has already decided who will be saved and who is condemned? The ones not chosen are just unlucky?

 

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

So you don't believe you've been saved then?

This thread is not about me. So if you wanna address the facts of Salvation is of Grace without works, then do it, its not about me, if you ask about me again, you will be ignored, neither shallk I ask about you !

 

[Grazer]

grazer



This thread is not about me. So if you wanna address the facts of Salvation is of Grace without works, then do it, its not about me, if you ask about me again, you will be ignored, neither shallk I ask about you !

Then don't make statements like Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work ! in the context of the subject at hand. What I have asked is a legitimate question that flows out of the case you trying to make based on a statement you made.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Then don't make statements like Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work ! in the context of the subject at hand. What I have asked is a legitimate question that flows out of the case you trying to make based on a statement you made.

This thread is not about me, and believing is a work, if one conditions their salvation on an act they did, which believing is, then they believe in salvation by works which anti scriptural !

 

[Grazer]

This thread is not about me, and believing is a work, if one conditions their salvation on an act they did, which believing is, then they believe in salvation by works which anti scriptural !

Believing you're saved doesn't change the truth, you are saved and you believe it but your belief is not a pre-requisite of salvation. But you must believe it otherwise what are you arguing for?

Just to throw some more verses into the mix:

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. - Romans 10:8-10

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. - John 20:30-31

but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? - John 5:42-44

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened" - Matthew 7:7-9

This isn't about you but faith has to be applied to life so has to make sense. The lengths you are taking the "not saved by works" argument makes absolutely no sense to me in that context. I think you're pushing it beyond the boundaries of what was meant. We can't do anything unless God initiates first. He has, we respond, I think the above verses clearly demonstrate that.

 

[Drew]

The lengths you are taking the "not saved by works" argument makes absolutely no sense to me in that context. I think you're pushing it beyond the boundaries of what was meant. We can't do anything unless God initiates first. He has, we respond, I think the above verses clearly demonstrate that.

I believe that when Paul writes about being "not saved by works", he is critiquing the specific Jewish idea that salvation is limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses.

Paul is quite clear in Romans 2 - "good works" (as contrast with the specific prescriptions of the Law of Moses) do indeed matter in relation to the matter of salvation.

 

[Butch5]

Paul is the one who was inspired to write the word works. The word means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is something done by the mind or heart of man, thats a work !
You do not listen to Paul or me !

On the contrary, it's not I who hasn't listened to Paul. I've understood his words in context and am able to reconcile both his statements in Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 2:5-10. On the other hand you've given an interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 that contradicts Romans 2:5-10. Additionally, I've asked you to address the passage from Romans which you've not yet done. So, it seems I'm not the one who's not listening to Paul.

I'll also ask again, did Paul preach a false gospel, they were his words I quoted?

 

[Butch5]

I believe that when Paul writes about being "not saved by works", he is critiquing the specific Jewish idea that salvation is limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses.

Paul is quite clear in Romans 2 - "good works" (as contrast with the specific prescriptions of the Law of Moses) do indeed matter in relation to the matter of salvation.

Agree, you're right on target.

 

[Butch5]

This thread is not about me, and believing is a work, if one conditions their salvation on an act they did, which believing is, then they believe in salvation by works which anti scriptural !

Can you support this from Scripture contextually?

 

[Drew]

On the contrary, it's not I who hasn't listened to Paul. I've understood his words in context and am able to reconcile both his statements in Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 2:5-10.

Romans 2 is the "Waterloo" of the many in the reformed tradition who would deny any role of good works in respect to final salvation.

It has been my experience that people either invent exceedingly unworkable theories to get out from under Romans 2 (e.g. "Paul is writing about something that would be the case, if indeed it were possible to be saved by good works") or they baldly ignore it.

Romans 2, Romans 2, Romans 2. Watch what people do with Romans 2!

 

[Butch5]

Romans 2 is the "Waterloo" of the many in the reformed tradition who would deny any role of good works in respect to final salvation.

It has been my experience that people either invent exceedingly unworkable theories to get out from under Romans 2 (e.g. "Paul is writing about something that would be the case, if indeed it were possible to be saved by good works") or they baldly ignore it.

Romans 2, Romans 2, Romans 2. Watch what people do with Romans 2!

Agreed! You also make the point of final salvation, too many see it as a one time event which I think causes them confusion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Can you support this from Scripture contextually?

Wherever you find the word works, in whatever context, it means this:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Drew]

Agreed! You also make the point of final salvation, too many see it as a one time event which I think causes them confusion.

Do I detect a fellow disciple of his highness, NT Wright? ;)

 

[Drew]

Wherever you find the word works, in whatever context, it means this:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

As has been pointed out to you before, a "dictionary" definition is the not the right way to proceed.

Context is more important. And when you read Paul, the context is quite clear: "works" almost always is his way of referring to the prescriptions of the Law of Moses.

Language is not a simple as you appear to presume: meaning cannot always be determined by "looking the word up in the dictionary".

Here is the problem with dictionary definitions. I could say "I am on cloud nine". If you look up the word cloud in the dictionary, I am quite sure you will find no reference whatsoever to a state of extreme happiness.

And yet this is clearly what I intend to communicate.