Saved by Grace not of works !

[Cassian]

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

1) provide proof that this verse is only references the elect. Prove that the indefinite pronoun 'any' refers to only the elect.

2) if "any" only refers to the elect then this verse refutes "eternal security"

3) "all" cannot refer to the elect for the elect have already come to repentance. No one is saved who has not repented of sins.

the doctrine of predestination goes much deeper that even your explanation. The text of II Pet 3:9 is a direct refutation of predestination. If not, then God does not really know who He predestined to salvation from the foundation of the world. Why would God actually think that any He predestined perish. It implies an outside factor than God here. That factor is man and man's faith and belief.

It clearly shows the fallacy of the reformed view of predestination. It must be held in isolation of the rest of scripture otherwise it becomes quite obvious since it never aligns with scripture.

 

[John O]

Yes, this verse speaks of His Elect Only !

Peter wrote this letter in the early 1st century, there were elect that were going to be born for centuries to come !

Rubbish!

John O

 

[stormcloud]

bass



The word defines itself, I just witness to it !

If it does there wouldn't be so many different denominations of Christianity.

 

[stormcloud]

storm



Yes, the word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !

You failed to respond to the majority of the point I made, and only took that which fit your message. Is that how you approach the Bible?

 

[savedbygrace57]

storm

You failed to respond to the majority of the point I made

No need to you stuck in error !

The word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !

 

[reba]

Keep it pleasant guys .reba

 

[Elijah674]

Keep it pleasant guys .reba

OK:

Matt. 18 extends from Eternity!

[12] How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
[13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

[14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.












The ones who 'teach' (no names!:waving) that God has pre/ordained the destruction of 'some' of His mankind creation, are not teaching the above WORDS OF CHRIST!! That of verse 14

[14] Even so [[[it is not]]] the will of your Father which is in heaven, [[[that one of these little ones should perish]]].

_________

So, what does God call these 'false teachers' who will be the cause of millions to become non/existing in the Second Eternal Death??? Obad. 1:16 (Can we say this from 2 Peter 2:22??? 'The dog is turned to his own vomit [again]; and the sow [that was washed] to her wallowing in the mire.')???

--Elijah

 

[stormcloud]

storm



No need to you stuck in error !

The word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !

You still cannot reconcile your position with Philippians 2:12.

 

[Drew]

storm



No need to you stuck in error !

The word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !

Using a "dictionary" definition for a word is full of dangers. Language is not that simple - a given word is often not used in accordance with the dictionary definition. Context often nuances the meaning of a word.

I suggest that when Paul refers to "works" he is usually (not always, but usually) referring to the works of the Law of Moses, not to all "acts, deeds, or performances".

 

[savedbygrace57]

You still cannot reconcile your position with Philippians 2:12.

No need to, the word for works means:


The word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !

 

[Grazer]

Not sure if this has been put already but I think Romans 10:9 answers the question of being saved;

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Not sure if this has been put already but I think Romans 10:9 answers the question of being saved;

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thats works salvation if you imply by om 10:9 that confessing and believing are connditions men perform to get saved. Thats not what Paul is saying !

 

[John O]

Thats works salvation if you imply by om 10:9 that confessing and believing are connditions men perform to get saved. Thats not what Paul is saying !

Sorry! Romans tells us what we must do but you cannot accept that as being what we are to do. So who is confused. Time to move on to issues of life and not get stuck on the minute aspects of definition splitting.

John O

 

[Butch5]

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The bible teaches and from this very passage, the doctrine of Salvation by Grace excluding any merit or works, or conditions and requirements to be performed on the part of man to secure it. Once a condition has been set, any condition, in order to get saved, something man must perform, such as to believe, to repent or anything else, Salvation by Grace through Faith is denied, and a work salvation is erected in its place. Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Main reason why Salvation by Grace through Faith is denied by the religious world is because, Salvation by Grace means Salvation by being of the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You see,Salvation by Grace means that God hath only purposed to save only some out of lost humanity by Grace and to dam and confirm in blindness the rest !

These passages are all out of context. This is not what the Scriptures teach.

 

[savedbygrace57]

These passages are all out of context. This is not what the Scriptures teach.

You are just making an excuse for your unbelief !

 

[reba]

Keep it pleasant guys Or at least get back to pleasant....

 

[Butch5]

You are just making an excuse for your unbelief !

The Scriptures are histories and letters, they are not just a bunch onliners to be used to apart from the rest of the text which gives context to the statements.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Scriptures are histories and letters, they are not just a bunch onliners to be used to apart from the rest of the text which gives context to the statements.

I did not ask you to tell me what the scriptures are ! This is about Salvation being by Grace and not by the work or works of man. I defined what works mean according to the word used by the writers. Its the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Butch5]

I did not ask you to tell me what the scriptures are ! This is about Salvation being by Grace and not by the work or works of man. I defined what works mean according to the word used by the writers. Its the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Yes, and the context determines what those works are. What you've stated contradicts the very writer you're quoting.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, and the context determines what those works are. What you've stated contradicts the very writer you're quoting.

The word works means what it says ! No matter what context. Many things falls under what works is !