Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Gregg T]

Does the Gospel wells up in a person apart from faith?
Gal 3:8
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Does the word of God will up in a person apart from faith?
Rom 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Does the Holy Spirit well up in a person apart from faith?
Gal 5:5
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

Faith is the avenue all those things(even though I would equate the Gospel as the Word of God) work through us.

Do you think a person will receive eternal life without faith?

I assure you(makes me chuckle to write this) that I am almost as far removed from the "word of faith" movement as I am from believing in zombies.

No, a person will not receive eternal life without faith, without exercising that faith by believing.

Yes, faith is a conduit / avenue as in "saved through faith"; but still, faith is not the well or the water that springs up. Being the avenue for something is markedly different than being that something.

The hole you are digging continues to get deeper. Please stop trying to justify your erroneous statement that our faith is the well and or the water. Brother Nathan, Staff Member, I expect intellectual and spiritual honesty from you in this matter.

 

[Nathan]

No, a person will not receive eternal life without faith, without exercising that faith by believing.

Yes, faith is a conduit / avenue as in "saved through faith"; but still, faith is not the well or the water that springs up. Being the avenue for something is markedly different than being that something.

The hole you are digging continues to get deeper. Please stop trying to justify your erroneous statement that our faith is the well and or the water. Brother Nathan, Staff Member, I expect intellectual and spiritual honesty from you in this matter.

No holes here.

I'm not trying to justify that "our" faith is the well and or the water. Our faith is not.

His faith in us is the well of flowing water.

Rom 4:16-25
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

I'm just the tech guy,

 

[Gregg T]

I'm not trying to justify that "our" faith is the well and or the water. Our faith is not.

I agree, and thank you for stating as much.

His faith in us is the well of flowing water.

Rom 4:16-25
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Another dry hole / well you are digging? Where or how could you have possibly learned that 'His faith in us is the well of flowing water'?

That was a rhetorical question. But for reading your next comment, I am not willing to pursue this matter any further.

 

[Nathan]

I agree, and thank you for stating as much.



Another dry hole / well you are digging? Where or how could you have possibly learned that 'His faith in us is the well of flowing water'?

That was a rhetorical question. But for reading your next comment, I am not willing to pursue this matter any further.

Nope, still no holes here.

His faith in us has to be the well of living water. There is nothing in and of ourselves that can produce this.

We know, from Jesus talking with the woman, that the living water is given by Him. What else is it that flows out of us?

Is there something else said to be given unto a believer that does the same thing? That leads to eternal life?

Your questions/comments really make me curious to know what you think faith is?

As far as learning, I can only say that since Jesus did not specifically say what this 'water' was when talking with the woman - I just started studying it and learned. It has to be something, unless you think Jesus was speaking of literal water?

 

[MarkT]

Nope, still no holes here.

His faith in us has to be the well of living water. There is nothing in and of ourselves that can produce this.

We know, from Jesus talking with the woman, that the living water is given by Him. What else is it that flows out of us?

Is there something else said to be given unto a believer that does the same thing? That leads to eternal life?

Your questions/comments really make me curious to know what you think faith is?

As far as learning, I can only say that since Jesus did not specifically say what this 'water' was when talking with the woman - I just started studying it and learned. It has to be something, unless you think Jesus was speaking of literal water?

God gave us his Spirit so we could know the truth, and everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has the truth in himself. The Spirit of God leads us to the truth, and the truth in us becomes a well of living water. Christ is the fountain of life, and he who believes in him will never thirst. John 6:35 ie. The good news of the kingdom is like water to a thirsty soul. Pr. 25:25 Drink this water and you will never thirst.

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. 38 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

 

[Jim Parker]

God gave us his Spirit so we could know the truth, and everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has the truth in himself. The Spirit of God leads us to the truth, and the truth in us becomes a well of living water.

Interesting.
So is it true that the "sign" gifts have ceased in the Church or is it true that they continue until today?
Is the bread and wine of the Eucharist really the body and blood of the LORD or is it just a symbol of the body and blood?
Do you need to speak in tongues to be saved or does it mean you may have a demon?
Is it OK for women to braid their hair and wear jewelry or not?
Do people still prophesy?

Right. Don't answer those questions. I'm being facetious.

THE POINT! ---> We believers do not seem to hear the leading of the Holy Spirit all that well when it comes to theological truth. In fact, we have actually gone to war over it! :wink

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

His faith in us has to be the well of living water.

That's not what scripture says.

At John 7:38-39, Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing[fn] in Him would receive; for the Holy[fn] Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Therefore, according to Jesus, it is not "His faith in us has to be the well of living water." but, rather, the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is a "WHO" not a "what."

iakov the fool

 

[Gregg T]

Nope, still no holes here.

His faith in us has to be the well of living water. There is nothing in and of ourselves that can produce this.

We know, from Jesus talking with the woman, that the living water is given by Him. What else is it that flows out of us?

Is there something else said to be given unto a believer that does the same thing? That leads to eternal life?

Your questions/comments really make me curious to know what you think faith is?

As far as learning, I can only say that since Jesus did not specifically say what this 'water' was when talking with the woman - I just started studying it and learned. It has to be something, unless you think Jesus was speaking of literal water?

God gave us his Spirit so we could know the truth, and everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has the truth in himself. The Spirit of God leads us to the truth, and the truth in us becomes a well of living water. Christ is the fountain of life, and he who believes in him will never thirst. John 6:35 ie. The good news of the kingdom is like water to a thirsty soul. Pr. 25:25 Drink this water and you will never thirst.

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. 38 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

Mark,
Thank you for explainng as you have. I am humbled because I was being lazy in not finding and posting the verse in Jn 7.

Nathan,
My apologies for lacking tact in our conversation, and for not posting Jn 7:38-39 to explain what the well and water refered to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that there is confusion caused by people conflating "good works" and "works of the law." They are not the same.

In regard to what justifies (what makes a person righteous before God) there is no difference in good works and works of the law. It's impossible to pay the penalty for past sin with today's good works. The debt of the sinner is too great for the sinner to pay himself, and live. It requires the death of the sinner himself. That's why the forgiveness of God is the only thing that can wipe away the guilt of past transgression and make a person justified (made righteous) in the sight of God.

"...when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:4-7 NASB bold and underline mine)

But the justification that good works do accomplish is the justification James speaks about (James 2:24 NASB). He is referring to the other meaning of justification: Showing oneself to be righteous. That is where there is a marked difference between good works and the works of the (ceremonial) law as you point out. 'Love your neighbor as yourself' shows you to have the righteousness of God in a born again experience. 'Keep Sabbath', or 'be circumcised', on the other hand, for example, do not. Those and other outward, old covenant ceremonial works are powerless to not only make one righteous, but also powerless to show a person to be righteous.

Where the Protestant Church has gone so terribly wrong is they do not understand that a man is justified, both, by faith by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB), AND by the work saving faith produces (James 2:24 NASB). To them that is a contradictory statement because they don't know that 'justified' has two distinct meanings--to make one righteous, and to show one to be righteous. They do not know that you have to be justified both ways in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath. So the 'justified by works' part gets summarily discarded as an utterly blasphemous thing (now even faith itself is being discarded as an evil work of self righteousness). And so we have this dead, works-less, do nothing church that thinks their do nothing faith, and complete lack of faith, will save them on the Last Day.

 

[Nathan]

Mark,
Thank you for explainng as you have. I am humbled because I was being lazy in not finding and posting the verse in Jn 7.

Nathan,
My apologies for lacking tact in our conversation, and for not posting Jn 7:38-39 to explain what the well and water refered to.

Apology accepted.

I think now we have 'opened' the top of the well, and now we can peer down into it. To try and break down what Jesus is speaking about, in detail, in just a few posts is near impossible. Much of the NT is written about this very subject, so to think we can condense it down to just a few short sentences is asking a lot. It is actually a very good Bible study topic. However, I will try to condense what I have studied in as short a way as possible.

The Spirit is no doubt Who is inside us. In order to understand this in human terms, we have to speak in human terms with metaphoric language.

The Spirit is the 'physical' structure of the well. We have to have this structure inside us because we are incapable of containing something(faith) so powerful. The first mistake is to not understand the power faith has - most think its just a simple 'thought' or 'belief'. We know it is much more powerful than that, being able to calm storms, move mountains, raise dead, etc. Mankind cannot produce this kind of faith, it has to be given to us - 'produced' in us, because true faith is the power of God.

Within the 'well'(physical structure) there is 'water'(truth). This truth is the Word of God. This water is what saturates our lives, and over'flows' out of us. This is done through faith. Faith is the truth of God in us, and the working of faith is the truth of God flowing out of us.

Here is the distinction: There are many things that 'well' up in a person, and 'flow' from them - but only that which comes from faith is the truth. Anything else that doesn't come from the 'well' of faith is sin. How do we know the difference? We know the difference by what 'structure' we are drawing from. The 'Spirit well' contains faith, the 'flesh well' contains sin.

The 'evidence' of what well is flowing out of our hearts is seen by the 'fruit' of what it produces. When the Spirit is 'producing'(springing up) faith in us, it flows out of us in what we do - our actions - and from those actions we see 're-actions'(fruit) that grows. We call this the 'fruit of the Spirit'. James writes about it in this way(which Jethro Bodine so truthfully spoke about in post #1948).

Jas 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Like I said, a whole book could be written on this if you were to draw out all the examples given to us in the NT. This is just a VERY short breakdown of it.

 

[Jim Parker]

But the justification that good works do accomplish is the justification James speaks about (James 2:24 NASB). He is referring to the other meaning of justification: Showing oneself to be righteous. That is where there is a marked difference between good works and the works of the (ceremonial) law as you point out. 'Love your neighbor as yourself' shows you to have the righteousness of God in a born again experience. 'Keep Sabbath', or 'be circumcised', on the other hand, for example, do not. Those and other outward, old covenant ceremonial works are powerless to not only make one righteous, but also powerless to show a person to be righteous.

The "good works" are consistently acts of love and, as such, they are an imitation of God. By good works, the believer shows himself to be a child of God. It is the evidence on which Jesus will base His judgment of each individual on the day of judgment. The only question will be, "Did you or did you not show mercy?" And the only proof of a "Yes" answer will be the acts of mercy which the individual has done.

Where the Protestant Church has gone so terribly wrong is they do not understand that a man is justified, both, by faith by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB), AND by the work saving faith produces (James 2:24 NASB). To them that is a contradictory statement because they don't know that 'justified' has two distinct meanings--to make one righteous, and to show one to be righteous. They do not know that you have to be justified both ways in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath. So the 'justified by works' part gets summarily discarded as an utterly blasphemous thing (now even faith itself is being discarded as an evil work of self righteousness). And so we have this dead, works-less, do nothing church that thinks their do nothing faith, and complete lack of faith, will save them on the Last Day.

The protestant church has adopted the very RCC teaching of justification having a legal meaning. It comes from Augustine, the Scholastics and is laid out in so may words by 11th/12th century RC Archbishop of Anselm of Canterbury's tract Cur Deus Homo.
(Available on line here: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG2093/_P2.HTM)

Anselm taught that it was necessary for God to kill Jesus because He was the only sacrifice of great enough value to satisfy the demands of justice in compensation for man's offense against God through sin.

Athanasius, (the champion of the doctrine of the Trinity) in his 4th century book, On the Incarnation, taught that, out of love for mankind, Jesus offered himself to be killed in order to destroy the power of death over mankind. (...for the wages of sin is death...). The Son of God became a man so that a man would with no sin, who had not earned a death, would be killed and then rise from the dead thereby making the resurrection of all mankind a reality.

Archbishop Anselm taught a legalistic atonement based on the satisfaction of the necessity of justice, which the RCC and Protestantism has widely embraced, while Athanasius taught that the atonement was purely an act of love. ("For God so loved the world...)

And, related to that teaching, is the answer to the question which I have often asked and which has gone unanswered: "From what are we saved?"
By Christ's death and resurrection, all of mankind has been saved from the death of the body.
All mankind will be raised from the grave immortal. (1 Cor 15:52ff)
But where any individual spends "the rest of eternity" will be based on whether or not we did the good works for which we were created and did the acts of mercy which show us to be the children of God.
That's what Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17 all tell us.

And that's how I see it.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

The "good works" are consistently acts of love and, as such, they are an imitation of God. By good works, the believer shows himself to be a child of God. It is the evidence on which Jesus will base His judgment of each individual on the day of judgment. The only question will be, "Did you or did you not show mercy?" And the only proof of a "Yes" answer will be the acts of mercy which the individual has done.



The protestant church has adopted the very RCC teaching of justification having a legal meaning. It comes from Augustine, the Scholastics and is laid out in so may words by 11th/12th century RC Archbishop of Anselm of Canterbury's tract Cur Deus Homo.
(Available on line here: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG2093/_P2.HTM)

Anselm taught that it was necessary for God to kill Jesus because He was the only sacrifice of great enough value to satisfy the demands of justice in compensation for man's offense against God through sin.

Athanasius, (the champion of the doctrine of the Trinity) in his 4th century book, On the Incarnation, taught that, out of love for mankind, Jesus offered himself to be killed in order to destroy the power of death over mankind. (...for the wages of sin is death...). The Son of God became a man so that a man would with no sin, who had not earned a death, would be killed and then rise from the dead thereby making the resurrection of all mankind a reality.

Archbishop Anselm taught a legalistic atonement based on the satisfaction of the necessity of justice, which the RCC and Protestantism has widely embraced, while Athanasius taught that the atonement was purely an act of love. ("For God so loved the world...)

And, related to that teaching, is the answer to the question which I have often asked and which has gone unanswered: "From what are we saved?"
By Christ's death and resurrection, all of mankind has been saved from the death of the body.
All mankind will be raised from the grave immortal. (1 Cor 15:52ff)
But where any individual spends "the rest of eternity" will be based on whether or not we did the good works for which we were created and did the acts of mercy which show us to be the children of God.
That's what Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17 all tell us.

And that's how I see it.

iakov the fool

Jim,

Just to add:
The early church taught that it is as you say above, but what we are saved from is Satan and his power, and death, the resurrection being the first of those that will be resurrected with a glorified body.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

Just to add:
The early church taught that it is as you say above, but what we are saved from is Satan and his power, and death, the resurrection being the first of those that will be resurrected with a glorified body.

YES.
Exactly.
Thanks.

But I think that only those who are "in Christ" get a "glorified" body. The damned get a body that won't die.

 

[GodsGrace]

YES.
Exactly.
Thanks.

But I think that only those who are "in Christ" get a "glorified" body. The damned get a body that won't die.

 

[Nathan]

I think a lot of people, when considering the judgement based on good works vs bad, think it's going to be a scale. They think God will place all the good on one side, the bad on the other, then which ever tips the scale is where you go. :neutral

I don't see that as anywhere near the truth given us. God is going to judge those in Christ based on being in Christ. Our works done on earth will show this - no matter how great or small. We can never possibly tip the scales to the good side, because the bad side is too heavy.

We know that if a man breaks just one law of God(which we all have) he is guilty of them all.

James 2:10 (ESV)
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

In the judgement it will come down to those found in Christ. All the works done will be judged, but only those in Christ will receive eternal life.

The rest will receive punishment based on their works, but not eternal life.

Parable of the talents is the perfect picture Jesus gave us of this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think a lot of people, when considering the judgement based on good works vs bad, think it's going to be a scale. They think God will place all the good on one side, the bad on the other, then which ever tips the scale is where you go. :neutral

I don't see that as anywhere near the truth given us. God is going to judge those in Christ based on being in Christ. Our works done on earth will show this - no matter how great or small. We can never possibly tip the scales to the good side, because the bad side is too heavy.

We know that if a man breaks just one law of God(which we all have) he is guilty of them all.

James 2:10 (ESV)
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

In the judgement it will come down to those found in Christ. All the works done will be judged, but only those in Christ will receive eternal life.

The rest will receive punishment based on their works, but not eternal life.

Parable of the talents is the perfect picture Jesus gave us of this.

There's a problem these days, Nathan, with some saying

1. No works are necessary.
2. Confessing sins insults God.

No one is saying we will be judged by works...
Then why would we need Jesus?

Tomorrow...

 

[Jim Parker]

I think a lot of people, when considering the judgement based on good works vs bad, think it's going to be a scale. They think God will place all the good on one side, the bad on the other, then which ever tips the scale is where you go.

I'm pretty sure that's Islamic teaching.
It's not what Jesus said at Mat 25:31-46.

God is going to judge those in Christ based on being in Christ. Our works done on earth will show this - no matter how great or small.

We can never possibly tip the scales to the good side, because the bad side is too heavy.

Also Good deeds do not erase evil ones. God's forgiveness does.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It seems to me (MHO) that what the LORD will be looking at is our life style. Was it one of mercy or one of selfishness?
Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In the judgement it will come down to those found in Christ. All the works done will be judged, but only those in Christ will receive eternal life.

OK. That is NOT what scripture says.
NO WHERE does scripture say we will be judged to see if we are "in Christ."
It SPECIFICALLY DOES say that we will be judged according to our works.
Our works are the evidence of being "in Christ."
So, make sure there is enough evidence to convict you of being "in Christ."

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

I'm pretty sure that's Islamic teaching.
It's not what Jesus said at Mat 25:31-46.



Also Good deeds do not erase evil ones. God's forgiveness does.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It seems to me (MHO) that what the LORD will be looking at is our life style. Was it one of mercy or one of selfishness?
Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

OK. That is NOT what scripture says.
NO WHERE does scripture say we will be judged to see if we are "in Christ."
It SPECIFICALLY DOES say that we will be judged according to our works.
Our works are the evidence of being "in Christ."
So, make sure there is enough evidence to convict you of being "in Christ."

iakov the fool

Revelation 20:15 (ESV) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

In the end of the book, the distinguishing between that which goes into the lake of fire and that which doesn't, is the book of life. The book of life is Christ.

Everyone is judged by what is written in the other books that are opened, but those who have their names written in the book of life do not get cast into the fire.

As you pointed out, mercy is one thing most overlook. One passage that stuck with me from my early years is this one -

Micah 6:8 (ESV)
He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

 

[Jim Parker]

Revelation 20:15 (ESV) 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
In the end of the book, the distinguishing between that which goes into the lake of fire and that which doesn't, is the book of life. The book of life is Christ.
Everyone is judged by what is written in the other books that are opened, but those who have their names written in the book of life do not get cast into the fire.

That is an ecstatic, apocalyptic vision which John has attempted to relate in human language.
Mat 25:31-46 is a very clear statement (not an ecstatic vision) by Jesus in which he specifically states the criteria on which He will judge mankind. He doesn't mention anything about having one's name in the "book of life."

Jesus also said:… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
That is another very clear statement from Jesus as to how we will be judged.

Jesus further stated: He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)

There is no way to avoid the fact that all of mankind will be judged blessed or damned based on the evidence of what we did or did not do.

Everyone is judged by what is written in the other books that are opened, but those who have their names written in the book of life do not get cast into the fire.

We have no idea what is written in the "other books" referred to in John's ecstatic vision.
We do know, because of Jesus very specific and clear statements, that if you do not have the evidence of good works, you can forget trying to find your name in the "book of life."

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

That is an ecstatic, apocalyptic vision which John has attempted to relate in human language.
Mat 25:31-46 is a very clear statement (not an ecstatic vision) by Jesus in which he specifically states the criteria on which He will judge mankind. He doesn't mention anything about having one's name in the "book of life."

Jesus also said:… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
That is another very clear statement from Jesus as to how we will be judged.

Jesus further stated: He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)

There is no way to avoid the fact that all of mankind will be judged blessed or damned based on the evidence of what we did or did not do.

We have no idea what is written in the "other books" referred to in John's ecstatic vision.
We do know, because of Jesus very specific and clear statements, that if you do not have the evidence of good works, you can forget trying to find your name in the "book of life."

iakov the fool

I agree, we will be judged on our works - good trees bear good fruit, bad ones bear bad fruit.

Those in Christ will bear good fruit. Problem is, those who are not in Christ sometimes 'think' their fruit is good. They can be self deceived by this. This is why some will question their works before Christ.

People often focus on works, when Christ wants the focus on Him.

John 15:4 (ESV)
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Those in Christ will bear fruit. It's a guarantee.

Christ is our aim, not works. Works will follow when we abide in Him.

1 John 2:27 (ESV)
But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in him.

1 John 2:28 (ESV)
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

If your not bearing fruit, then there should be reason for questioning. If you think your bearing fruit, but have no care of being in Christ, there should be reason for questioning.

Abide and fruit will happen.