Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Jethro Bodine]

1 John 2:15-24 [NASB]
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [fn]it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 [fn]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and [fn]because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the [fn]Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Is there a difference between those who read it and obey and those who read it and do not obey?

Of course there is a difference between who reads and obeys John's exhortation, and who reads it and doesn't obey. John tells us exactly what that difference is: Those who obey and let that which they heard in the beginning remain in them will remain in the Son and the Father, while those who do not obey will not remain in the Son and the Father (and as a result will not have eternal life--1 John 5:12 NASB).

If the people of vs. 19 had remained in what they heard they would be in Christ, and would have remained with John. But since they did not remain in what they first heard they did not remain with John. He warns his saved, believing audience to not do the same.

 

[Jim Parker]

Is there a difference between those who read it and obey and those who read it and do not obey?

Here's some insight from Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship, Part 1, Chapter 2 "The Call to discipleship."
Perhaps it will be of some use.

"...only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes."

"For faith in only real when there is obedience, never without it, and faith only becomes faith in the act of obedience."

Bon appetit!

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

He warns his saved, believing audience to not do the same.

And there would be no need for the warning if there were not a very real peril.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

dltd

 

[GodsGrace]

I deliberately quoted verses 15-24 and underlined verse 19.
I think there are questions avoided in the "everyone chooses to be saved and can choose to be unsaved" focus on the warnings in scripture, vs. the "no one chooses to be saved or can choose to be unsaved" focus on the assurances in scripture.

So, the short answer is "Yes."
I believe the matter is more complicated than 'that', but have no desire to argue shadows and play scripture pong.
I quoted a paragraph for a reason.
I have no desire to debate single verses out of context (or in context) to retread a 2100+ post well worn path.
You will either see the point, or you will not.
You will either care about the point, or you will not.
That is the beauty of Calvinism ... I am not your mother.

Atpollard,
I deleted my above post because I didn't understand what you were getting at, but now I do.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us, for if they had been, they would have remained...

Interesting verse it is...

WHO are the US. Those believers who remained faithful to what they HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING.
1 John 2:24

John is speaking about the anti-Christ. WHO is the anti-Christ?
The one who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
1 John 2:22

You are aware that many in that day, as today, will say that Jesus is the messiah, but not God. Some will even say He is not the Messiah or Christ, but an annointed teacher. I know of a group in Milan that broke away from an Assembly of God church because of this.

So, WHO DOES NOT HOLD THE ORIGINAL TRUTH?

Those, it would seem to me, who come along and CHANGE what the ORIGINAL CHURCH taught.

One of these would be Calvin.

HE did NOT HOLD to the original truth.
The early church theologians did NOT believe in eternal security.

Many today are watering down the gospel. Calvin is one of them. If God chooses us, how could we be responsible for any action?
And if we do fall away, well, how sad--- we were never really in the believer's group anyway.

Seems God never makes mistakes and we have no free will.

So, yes, it's more complicated than you care to discuss.

Let's just say that Calvin DID NOT adhere to the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of the church, and so, by John's definition, HE is an anti-Christ.

Just quick...:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Church Fathers on Eternal Security
Derek Ouellette — April 29, 2012
I’m not quite sure to what extent, but it is my suspicion that the earliest Christians understood salvation differently than we do. I also think the Bible writers themselves understood salvation, and the nuances of “faith”, “works”, “law”, and so on, differently than we.

While the Church Father’s did not agree on everything, when they speak with one voice on any particular subject I think wisdom dictates that we should listen and give their voice a great deal of weight.

Such is the subject of this post. It seems that in regards to the idea that once someone “believes unto salvation” that there is no chance they will not continue in that state to the end, our Father’s protest.

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ Hermas (c. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ Commodianus (c. 240)

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ Cyprian (c. 250)

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ Victorinus (c. 280)

Et cetera, et cetera…

While they may disagree with one another on this point or that point, the one consistent theme which they seem to agree on is that even “after obtaining salvation” – as Tertullian puts it – one may be “disinherited by Him” (to quote Irenaeus) if they cease to be faithful (which is inextricably tied up to obedience according to Hebrews 4).

And by the way, I find Origen’s thoughts to be of particular interest. Apparently during the first few centuries of the Church – that is, prior to Augustine – it was the heretics who promised salvation “in such a way that they cannot be lost.”

It was the Gnostics – and then Augustine, Luther, Calvin and so on – who taught “once saved always saved.”

 

[GodsGrace]

And there would be no need for the warning if there were not a very real peril.

iakov the fool

This is such an important point.
I also make this point constantly.
Why give such dire warnings unless it was for fear of loss of one's soul?

This aspect is not given the proper consideration.
(as if all these warnings were just for our benefit to "live a better life", as is stated)

 

[atpollard]

"...only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes."
"For faith in only real when there is obedience, never without it, and faith only becomes faith in the act of obedience."

Thank you.
I like Bonhoeffer. I admire what he said and the circunstances in which he stood up to say it.
I agree completely. I just see the reality of who 'scripture' was written to and it's purpose as being more nuanced and complex a ballet than the talking points of the polarized "waiting to talk" (rather than listening) discussions typical of this topic.

Just once, it might be fun to have a topic in which each side was not allowed to post any verses supporting its position, but simply had the verses of the opposition to explain TRUTH from.

 

[Nathan]

I deliberately quoted verses 15-24 and underlined verse 19.
I think there are questions avoided in the "everyone chooses to be saved and can choose to be unsaved" focus on the warnings in scripture, vs. the "no one chooses to be saved or can choose to be unsaved" focus on the assurances in scripture.

So, the short answer is "Yes."
I believe the matter is more complicated than 'that', but have no desire to argue shadows and play scripture pong.
I quoted a paragraph for a reason.
I have no desire to debate single verses out of context (or in context) to retread a 2100+ post well worn path.
You will either see the point, or you will not.
You will either care about the point, or you will not.
That is the beauty of Calvinism ... I am not your mother.

Oh, I see the "beauty" of Calvinism.

I just think the true beauty of God is better.

Its sad to think that Paul labored so hard for so long, when all people do now days is sit back and wait.

 

[atpollard]

If the people of vs. 19 had remained in what they heard they would be in Christ, and would have remained with John. But since they did not remain in what they first heard they did not remain with John. He warns his saved, believing audience to not do the same.

It must be a wonderful thing to sit in a church completely full of wheat, His sheep, the Elect, good soil, true believers ... to whom the Holy Spirit can deliver the word of the Lord (via an anointed speaker or letter) to an audience with no need to take even the slightest consideration that some hearers might be wolves, tares, have a dead faith, or be poor soil that will ultimately be proven inadequate to carry faith through to completion. I envy such a church. [sigh]

In my church, there are all sorts and, I can't always tell the wheat from the tares. To make matters worse, the Holy Spirit has actually been known to improve the soil in some cases and, once in a while, an old goat suddenly gets a new heart and is transformed into a gentle sheep. His sheep or not His sheep? I have no idea.

John wrote to a church, a whole body of believers. Actually, as a circulated letter, it was first written to a group of churches, and then the Holy Spirit intended it as part of the Scripture for all churches and for THE Church. So what if, just as a hypothetical, John was writing one message to a variety of soils and a mixture of wheat and tares and sheep and goats and real and dead faith. Each heart was intended to take a different 'message' from the message. Not to pick it apart and choose one phrase from one verse and another phrase from another and discard the rest as 'not for me', but to take the whole great big thought that conveys a complex truth. A truth that includes warnings for those who are wolves so they are without excuse and warnings that some people ARE wolves. Warnings for those on the fence that they tread a dangerous path and warnings for those with a dead faith that they are not as secure as they think. Yet at the exact same time, among that mess are those who are HIS sheep. He knows His sheep, they LISTEN (more than just hear) to his voice and follow. His sheep (among this mess) will endure (continue to follow). Of His sheep, He will lose none. His sheep are SEALED with the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance. No one will snatch His sheep from His hand ... they are the good soil in which the seed of His word will grow and bear fruit. To them, John offers confidence in them and assurance that we do not trust in vain.

US ... YOU ... THEY: One message (of more than a single verse) directed to a diverse audience to accomplish the appropriate purpose for that particular soil.

[But polarized scripture pong and universal absolutes are easier in a discussion like this.]

 

[atpollard]

Oh, I see the "beauty" of Calvinism.

The beauty of Monergism then.
If Synergism were true and God needed help, then I am responsible if you go to heaven or hell, because I MUST make every effort to get you to do your part. If salvation is 100% of God, then His arm is not short and I am not ESSENTIAL to YOUR salvation. Monergism (embraced by Calvinism) frees me from the need to convince you that I am right.

The verses have almost nothing to do with Calvinism and the little bit that they touch on Calvinism was not my point in quoting them.

 

[atpollard]

I deleted my above post because I didn't understand what you were getting at, but now I do.

Are we sure that 100% of everyone who was "not of us" and was going to "go out from us" had already left?
Could some of the warnings have been for those who were not of us, but had yet to go out from us?
Does that impact statement like "if you continue" when John might be addressing a mixture of wheat and tares?
Is it reasonable to ponder if the wheat might "continue" while some of the tares might not "continue"?

US ... YOU ... THEY. (I suggest thinking about who he was speaking to.)

I am not here to argue.
I am not here to debate.
I am here to present an idea that seems to have been overlooked in the strong polarity.
Think about it or ignore it as you please.

 

[atpollard]

So, WHO DOES NOT HOLD THE ORIGINAL TRUTH?

Those, it would seem to me, who come along and CHANGE what the ORIGINAL CHURCH taught.

One of these would be Calvin.

HE did NOT HOLD to the original truth.
The early church theologians did NOT believe in eternal security.

Many today are watering down the gospel. Calvin is one of them. If God chooses us, how could we be responsible for any action?
And if we do fall away, well, how sad--- we were never really in the believer's group anyway.

Seems God never makes mistakes and we have no free will.

So, yes, it's more complicated than you care to discuss.

Just for the record, Calvinism does not teach that.
(... and this is not really the place to discuss what Reformed Theology does teach).

I only made reference to Calvinism because it teaches that I am not responsible for YOUR salvation, so I have no need to 'win' this argument.

 

[Nathan]

The beauty of Monergism then.
If Synergism were true and God needed help, then I am responsible if you go to heaven or hell, because I MUST make every effort to get you to do your part. If salvation is 100% of God, then His arm is not short and I am not ESSENTIAL to YOUR salvation. Monergism (embraced by Calvinism) frees me from the need to convince you that I am right.

The verses have almost nothing to do with Calvinism and the little bit that they touch on Calvinism was not my point in quoting them.

Is Synergism the same as servanthood? I'll have to look that one up.

I find love to be the most excellent way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are we sure that 100% of everyone who was "not of us" and was going to "go out from us" had already left?
Could some of the warnings have been for those who were not of us, but had yet to go out from us?
Does that impact statement like "if you continue" when John might be addressing a mixture of wheat and tares?
Is it reasonable to ponder if the wheat might "continue" while some of the tares might not "continue"?

Those who are 'not of us' don't have anything to continue in that they should be exhorted to continue in it. You don't tell people to continue in something they do not have. That's why I reject the explanation you have given for John's exhortation in vs. 24 to let what you heard in the beginning continue in you so you can continue in Christ and the Father:

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:19,24 NASB)


Paul also speaks of this necessity to continue in the gospel message in order to continue to be saved. And he uses more emphatic language that stresses the fact that he's directly talking to those who are in fact very much saved:

" 1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Besides the fact that he points out they received and are standing on the gospel, he makes that fact all the more emphatic by the 'if' he uses in vs. 2. In the original Greek it means much more than just 'if you hold fast you are saved', it implies the fact that they are indeed doing just that--holding fast and are, therefore, very much saved.

As we can plainly see in the passage, you are presently saved if you hold fast the word of the gospel by which you were saved. But Freegrace doctrine says you do not need to be holding fast the gospel to be presently saved (your past, now ceased believing being enough to save you forever). Which, by the way, is in direct contrast to Calvinist doctrine which says the (truly) saved person will continue to believe, thus the 'holding fast' being the sign that you are a true believer (until the day you fail, showing you to have been a fake believer all this time).

Non-OSAS doctrine says you are securely saved and surely possess all the promises of eternity as long as you are believing. It's simple, and it's Biblical. Calvinism and Freegrace doctrines, both, have to jump in and explain why the many simple non-OSAS passages don't really mean what they so plainly say. That fact alone may be the biggest reason I got off the fence about OSAS. I firmly resist the church's 'the Bible doesn't really mean what it says' attitude that it presently has.

Don't get me wrong. I respect traditional Calvinistic OSAS. At least they retain the necessity for a genuine faith to be saved. The problem I have with it is what the Catholics find wrong with it--you can never be sure of your salvation because there is always tomorrow's potential failure of faith to show that what you thought was saving faith today proved not to be that at all. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of surety and security? Really?

Non-OSAS is the doctrine of security: As long as you believe in Christ--despite even your 7x70 relationship with Him (Matthew 18:21-22)--you are saved. Simple. Yet, so many people resist such a simple, and reasonable, and Biblical doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I only made reference to Calvinism because it teaches that I am not responsible for YOUR salvation, so I have no need to 'win' this argument.

Correct, as long as you do not have a Pauline type calling to ministry on your life, you are not responsible for anyone hearing the gospel and being saved. But, you are responsible for what reward awaits you on the other side. Do nothing to help someone make it through the Day of Judgment and you will have nothing waiting on the other side of the Judgment to be your reward for your labor in this life.

19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB)

"...each will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NASB)

 

[atpollard]

Correct, as long as you do not have a Pauline type calling to ministry on your life, you are not responsible for anyone hearing the gospel and being saved. But, you are responsible for what reward awaits you on the other side. Do nothing to help someone make it through the Day of Judgment and you will have nothing waiting on the other side of the Judgment to be your reward for your labor in this life.

Do you really believe that either the salvation or fate at the Day of Judgement of ANYONE is being decided by this topic and the discussion here?

Whether or not one CAN lose salvation does not change the reality of who the Father has drawn to the Son.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you really believe that either the salvation or fate at the Day of Judgement of ANYONE is being decided by this topic and the discussion here?

Whether or not one CAN lose salvation does not change the reality of who the Father has drawn to the Son.

I personally don't feel that Calvinistic OSAS is a terrible threat to Bible believing Christians, because as I've often said, at least it retains the necessity for enduring in one's faith to the very end to be saved (that enduring being the sign of one's genuine saving faith). Freegrace Theology (see note below), on the other hand, has the potential to encourage a believer to fall from the faith by making them think they are still saved even if they do shrink back to unbelief because of temptation or hardship.

Freegrace Theology is a very dangerous doctrine in the church today. Jesus talks about those who cause little ones who believe in Him to stumble and go to the eternal fire:

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

We see Jesus is talking about how terrible it's going to be for those who lead a believer in him away to eternal damnation, yet so many in the church are so sure it is impossible for a believer in Jesus to ever end up in unbelief and go to the eternal fire. What's so powerful about this passage is it is immune to the common arguments OSAS uses to dismiss various non-OSAS passages. Jesus is talking about actual saved believers in him (vs.6), not fake believers, and the fact that they stumble so as to go to the eternal, fiery hell (vs.8-9), not simply lose rewards.

Any person who is helped by what I, or anyone else here says about the deceitfulness of Freegrace Theology (see note below) will be our reward in the kingdom to come because that particular strain of OSAS is very much a matter of spiritual life and death. Even traditional Calvinistic OSAS insists on the need for the believer to endure to the end.


Note: Freegrace Theology is the actual name of the belief system that claims a person can go back to unbelief and they are still saved. It is not a derogatory reference to FreeGrace's beliefs that he has been posting in this forum.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Correct, as long as you do not have a Pauline type calling to ministry on your life, you are not responsible for anyone hearing the gospel and being saved. But, you are responsible for what reward awaits you on the other side. Do nothing to help someone make it through the Day of Judgment and you will have nothing waiting on the other side of the Judgment to be your reward for your labor in this life.

19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB)

"...each will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NASB)

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

How do we, as believers, not have a responsibility to witness to a lost and dying world by the life that we live? Scripture states that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word". Are you saying that it is only the preachers that are responsible for the salvation of the lost?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

How do we, as believers, not have a responsibility to witness to a lost and dying world by the life that we live? Scripture states that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word". Are you saying that it is only the preachers that are responsible for the salvation of the lost?

I'm saying, unless you have a special calling like the prophets/watchmen of old, or, the New Covenant equivalent, like Paul, you function in whatever gift it is that you have, and in accordance to the level of faith God has given you to do that, and you leave it at that:

"...I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." (Romans 12:3-8 NASB italics in original)

I know this is going to chaff against the majority of denominations, but it seems many think 'Go ye into all the world' is the greatest commandment (which it is not). As important as that is, that command belongs, or doesn't belong, to any one individual believer according to his particular calling and the amount of faith God has given him to fulfill that calling.

Peter talks about gifts being in two main categories, and makes reference to walking in the one you have according to your particular equipping:

"10As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies" (1 Peter 4:10 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

Some have speaking gifts, some have working gifts. Whatever gift it is that you have received Paul and Peter say to soberly assess what your particular gift is, and the amount of faith you have been given to operate in it. But it seems a lot of churches have everybody burdened with the task of evangelizing the world. That's just not Biblical, as I'm proving from the passages above. Evangelism is only ONE of the many gifts given to the church.

I see too many churches focused on the one gift, evangelism, to the exclusion, or at least detriment, of all the other gifts. Apparently, it's this way because this teaching that we exist to evangelize the world is being passed down generation to generation in our seminaries and churches. Just as OSAS is being perpetuated the same way. Instead of reading the scriptures and seeing what God actually has to say we instead go with what the church tells us. It's actually a very real problem in the church.

 

[Jim Parker]

Freegrace Theology (see note below), on the other hand, has the potential to encourage a believer to fall from the faith by making them think they are still saved even if they do shrink back to unbelief because of temptation or hardship.

Freegrace Theology is a very dangerous doctrine in the church today.

Yup! You nailed it.
That is exactly the issue.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, .... beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

iakov the fool