Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[reba]

Thanks

 

[atpollard]

The church I joined after coming to know Christ was Calvinist, and so were some of my seminary professors. Although that was 30 years ago, I occasionally find my thinking influenced by Calvinism. I've been studying that systematic and the psycology supporting it for several years. There are many variations of it, as there are within Pentecostalism and every denomination..

Then you should be more familiar with what Calvinism actually teaches and why. Double predestination is not part of traditional orthodox Calvinist teaching. If you really wish to discuss Calvinism and Free Will, start with the Westminser Confession of Faith:


Chapter IX
Of Free Will

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4]so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]


**********

[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

 

[atpollard]

Time is limited (Edited by staff) , so excuse me if I restrict my limited time and ability to one small part and one simple question.

Speaking on Total Depravity, as a knowledgable Calvinist, you said:

The Calvinist understanding beneath those statements I've inserted in (red), My comments in (blue):

1. "No one (whom God either a. determined / willed not to come, or b. those made certain to come by decree) can come to Me" = total (meaning both 100% and partially, depending on the strength of the counter argument) depravity (inability to exercise his wiill or to reason, is not able to respond to God's call) = the inability to save ourselves (redefinition of Tulip's "T" and moving the goalposts; point 1 of TULIP is about man's ability to respond to God, not his ability to save himself)

However Jim Parker, also knowledgable (Edited by staff) and certainly NOT a Calvinist presented this much more familiar description of Total Depravity which does not appear to state what you claim Calvinism means by Total Depravity:

Tiptoeing through the TULIP 1
1) Total depravity: The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)

All of this started because I made the claim:

Calvinism teaches that John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") is actually true.

So the question from this poor unlettered idiot to you two much more learned scholars is:

Does this:

Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.

say the same thing as this:
John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.")
Both seem to say that NO ONE can choose to follow/come to Jesus on their own.
I look forward to your exegesis explaining how this simpleton has misunderstood John 6:44 and your support for your personal brand of Calvinism.

[With respect to your accusation of my moving goal posts, can a person be saved without coming to Jesus? If not, then is equating the inability to respond to God's call to an inability to be saved really 'moving a goal post'?]

 

[Jim Parker]

Both seem to say that NO ONE can choose to follow/come to Jesus on their own.

Very good point.
They both seem to state that man cannot exercise his free will to choose to serve God.
However, the scriptures that I posted very clearly indicate that no one is totally incapable of choosing to submit to God.
DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
JOS 24:25 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
PR 8:10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,
ISA 56:4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--
PS 34:11-14 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
EZE 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
JN 3:16 -17 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
JN 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
REV 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

The assumption that is the basis of all these (and more) verses is that man does have the ability and the freedom to make a choice. Man has free will and can act on it. The notion that man is incapable of making such a choice is not compatible with the teaching of scripture.

God’s earnest encouragement to choose to serve Him permeates the scriptures. The notion that all mankind is incapable of doing so, that all mankind is “hard wired” to oppose God because of the fall, contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

ISA 1:18-20 Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

This is one of many examples in scripture of how God deals with man; by giving man the freedom to make a choice. Total depravity resulting in having no free will is not Biblical.

And the idea that God only draws a limited number of people to Himself requires us to conclude that God does not wish for all of mankind to be saved. That is also in direct contradiction to Scripture.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[fn] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So the idea of Total Depravity fails by being contrary to scripture. Man is not totally disabled from choosing to want to serve God and it is not God's will that only some people be drawn to Him in order to be saved.

iakov the fool

 

[Gregg T]

Time is limited and, as I am frequently reminded here, I am an idiot, so excuse me if I restrict my limited time and ability to one small part and one simple question.

Speaking on Total Depravity, as a knowledgable Calvinist, you said:


However Jim Parker, also knowledgable (not an idiot like me) and certainly NOT a Calvinist presented this much more familiar description of Total Depravity which does not appear to state what you claim Calvinism means by Total Depravity:



All of this started because I made the claim:


So the question from this poor unlettered idiot to you two much more learned scholars is:

Does this:

say the same thing as this:
John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.")
Both seem to say that NO ONE can choose to follow/come to Jesus on their own.
I look forward to your exegesis explaining how this simpleton has misunderstood John 6:44 and your support for your personal brand of Calvinism.

[With respect to your accusation of my moving goal posts, can a person be saved without coming to Jesus? If not, then is equating the inability to respond to God's call to an inability to be saved really 'moving a goal post'?]

Calvinists and non-calvinists to not dispute man's inability to save himself, or salvation without coming to Jesus.

The act of salvation is passive from a man's standpoint, as God saves man. Believing is active from a man's standpoint, as God does not believe for him. However, the "T" in the Calvinist TULIP references man's inability (his Total depravity) to believe, not his "T"otal inability to save himself.

But, the core of the issue (stated simply):
Calvinism teaches that God determines / decrees / decides / chooses who will believe in Jesus and who will not, and that neither could do otherwise.

Here is what Jn 6:44 is not saying:
- that being drawn to the Son is synonomous with one believing in the Son
- that being drawn to the Son is equivalent to one coming to Him
- that being drawn to the Son insinuates he will be saved

Jn 6:44 addresses the Judicial Hardening of a subset of Israel, hardening them because they refused to hear and believe God (Jn 5:37, Jn 5:38a), Moses (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:47a), John the Baptist (Jn 5:33, Jn 5:35), and Jesus (Jn 3:11, Jn 5:38b, Jn 6:36, Jn 5:47b).

The Calvinist reads Jn 6:44 and erroneously understands that God's intention is to only draw some to Jesus throughout the Church age; whereas Jesus explains that it is God's intention to eventually draw all men to Jesus, "Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

 

[atpollard]

But, the core of the issue (stated simply):
Calvinism teaches that God determines / decrees / decides / chooses who will believe in Jesus and who will not, and that neither could do otherwise.

I suspect that strawman has been soundly beaten down, but giving you (and your seminary training) the benefit of the doubt, could you please cite where Calvinism teaches this? I didn't see it when I read the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminser Confession of Faith.

Thank you.

 

[atpollard]

The Calvinist reads Jn 6:44 and erroneously understands that God's intention is to only draw some to Jesus throughout the Church age; whereas Jesus explains that it is God's intention to eventually draw all men to Jesus, "Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

I didn't see the answer to my question in your response.
Does this:

Total depravity:
The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)

say the same thing as this:

John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.")

Both seem to say that NO ONE can choose to follow/come to Jesus on their own.

 

[Gregg T]

I didn't see the answer to my question in your response.
Does this:

Total depravity:
The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)

say the same thing as this:

John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.")

Both seem to say that NO ONE can choose to follow/come to Jesus on their own.

No, they do not say the same; and I explained why in that post.

But here I'll explain in more detail:
One speaks of all people, the other about a certain subset of a specific people.
One speaks of being hardened by sin resulting from the Fall, the other about judicial hardening.
One regards not being able to believe, the other chosing not to believe.

 

[Gregg T]

I suspect that strawman has been soundly beaten down, but giving you (and your seminary training) the benefit of the doubt, could you please cite where Calvinism teaches this? I didn't see it when I read the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminser Confession of Faith.

Thank you.

Calvinism's view of determinism according to its modern day pillars:

“Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.” [John Calvin, Inst. I.xviii.l. 1559 edition. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73]

“The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.” [John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God (tr. J. K. S. Reid) (London, 1961)175f. (OC 8.358) See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73]

“But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” [John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172]

“Scripture…teaches God’s sovereignty (providence, decree, etc.) and man’s responsibility. We usually call this “biblical compatibilism,” which we might summarize by saying that human beings freely chose what God foreordains.” [James White:
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4324]

“God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.” [R. C. Sproul, Jr., Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54]

“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.” [A. W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162]

“God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.” [Mark Talbot, edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor, Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, (Wheaton, Ill: Crossway Books, 2006) 41-42]

These and other similar views can be found at:
https://atheologyintension.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/2376/

 

[Gregg T]

I suspect that strawman has been soundly beaten down, but giving you (and your seminary training) the benefit of the doubt, could you please cite where Calvinism teaches this? I didn't see it when I read the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminser Confession of Faith.

Thank you.

And I myself was shaming my seminary training in that it taught Calvinism. You may slap my other cheek as well, the one facing my former Calvinist pastor.

 

[JLB]

But, the core of the issue (stated simply):
Calvinism teaches that God determines / decrees / decides / chooses who will believe in Jesus and who will not, and that neither could do otherwise.

Which is the very reason most Christians reject Calvinism as a man made doctrine.

There is no scripture in the bible that teaches us God chooses some for salvation and chooses others for eternal damnation.

The bible does, however teach us that, there are some who are not sons of the kingdom, but sons of the wicked one.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:36-43


Tares will never be wheat.

Only wheat has the ability to produce "fruit".


JLB

 

[MCoop]

Then you should be more familiar with what Calvinism actually teaches and why. Double predestination is not part of traditional orthodox Calvinist teaching. If you really wish to discuss Calvinism and Free Will, start with the Westminser Confession of Faith:


Chapter IX
Of Free Will

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4]so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]


**********

[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

Very good! All those who have and will be saved by Gods grace in Christ (the elect) will agree to these truths. Only those who are yet dead in their sins oppose these truths. There is no doubt the autonomy of the will is deified by modern day pelagians who make up the vast majority of Christendom. But let it be known, that this "will" worship is man made and doctrines of devils.

 

[MCoop]

Which is the very reason most Christians reject Calvinism as a man made doctrine.

There is no scripture in the bible that teaches us God chooses some for salvation and chooses others for eternal damnation.

The bible does, however teach us that, there are some who are not sons of the kingdom, but sons of the wicked one.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:36-43


Tares will never be wheat.

Only wheat has the ability to produce "fruit".


JLB

Explain Romans 9

 

[Gregg T]

Explain Romans 9

Romans 9 regards the election of Israel as a nation, through whom God would send His Son into the world; and does not suggest God elects individual men for salvation.

 

[Nathan]

Which is the very reason most Christians reject Calvinism as a man made doctrine.

There is no scripture in the bible that teaches us God chooses some for salvation and chooses others for eternal damnation.

The bible does, however teach us that, there are some who are not sons of the kingdom, but sons of the wicked one.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:36-43


Tares will never be wheat.

Only wheat has the ability to produce "fruit".


JLB

One thing I would correct, tares cannot be wheat.

What is important about that is tares do not have the ability to be wheat - they never do, and never will. A tare does not even care about being wheat.

 

[MCoop]

Romans 9 regards the election of Israel as a nation, through whom God would send His Son into the world; and does not suggest God elects individual men for salvation.

The twisting of scripture to fit the pelagian humanistic teaching of soteriology, is very evident in your analysis of this chapter. Sure it speaks of the salvation of the elect and how it comes about, whether you be Jew or gentile. All of grace! All of mercy in Christ! The righteousness of faith... and not by the works of the law as pelagians suggests. For they stumble at that stumbling stone

 

[JLB]

One thing I would correct, tares cannot be wheat.

What is important about that is tares do not have the ability to be wheat - they never do, and never will. A tare does not even care about being wheat.

Yes brother, that is what I said.

Tares will never be wheat.

Only wheat has the ability to produce "fruit".

JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 9 regards the election of Israel as a nation, through whom God would send His Son into the world; and does not suggest God elects individual men for salvation.

Yes agreed.

Election for purpose, not election for salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Explain Romans 9

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:3-13

The context of Romans 9 deals with God specifically choosing the lineage, through which Christ Jesus would come.


Key Verse:

vs.5] of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.


God chose Jacob, over Esau, for the purpose of the lineage of Christ, not for salvation.


Each person must choose to obey God, or not, in order to be saved.


Judas Iscariot is the prime example, of a person being destined to reign with Christ, along with the other apostles, but instead he became a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16




JLB

 

[Mike]

A reminder for our newer participants (as well as some established ones) , I encourage you to read the Sticky, "Rules for Posting in the Theology Forum" with a special emphasis on the requirement to cite scripture when we reject someone's claims.

Important also is to target comments toward the subject; not the person. A random example would be stating "The way you twist and distort scripture...". This would be focused on the actions and/or motives of the person.

Please, everyone, read, understand, and adhere to all the rules in the sticky.

Thank you.